Who comes in if (as suspected) Pontings finger is broken? And who bats at 3?

[dan warna]

..

Whites technique is not up to test match cricket. 5 days of playing against the best. This is the arena where you get exposed (hughes). That 100 he made against the poms, they were basically a B grade attack that some of our shield sides would rival.

As much as i like his captaincy, he is not the answer for Aus cricket!

How did the others go against the so called B grade attack?

Khawaja got 0 and 13? hughes got an 80, and I think smith got a 50, and O'keefe got a 60 and 4 wickets.

If anything, O'Keefe should be getting FC game practice somewhere, he is one of the few who actually looked mature and comfortable enough at the top level, Cook, Peiterson, bell and Prior, thats 4 quality wickets, not tail-ender rubbish.

I think NSW should be giving this guy the most game time, he has shown enough so far that he might actually be a 70 plus test player.

Hughes....issues with discipline (with regard to his shot choice) and maturity
Smith....was rubbish with the bat.

Khawaja, promoted on a score of 200 against SA.

O'keefe looks the the goods but can't get a game...

 

[frankrizzo]

How can people have an issue with usman getting called up?

They clearly have him as the next cab of the rank in the middle order(that's why he was the stand by for clarke at the gabba).

He's young and he's averaging 70+ in the shield, it just seems straight forward.

 

[BarneyBent]

subjective opinion, something we all have.

Most centuries White has ever hit in a Shield season?

Most runs White has ever hit in a Shield season?

Highest batting average White has ever had in a Shield season?

Most wickets White has ever taken in a Shield season?

Most wickets White has ever taken in a Shield game?

Lowest bowling average White has ever had in a Shield season?

Three pretty decent statistical indicators of each discipline. I'm guessing White wins one, maybe two, both bowling (most wickets in a Shield season and maybe lowest average).

All this despite Smith having a far younger FC career and far less development. Smith's not the finished product, not by a long way, but he's already far outperforming White at state level in FC cricket.

 

[Super Hans]

Treated badly? The guy was a lazy fat prick, who hit the sauce pretty much every night.

Professional sportsman have to have dedication. He had none. Best decision for everyone that he moved on.

Oh so your obviously better than him?

 

[legend166]

From everything I've heard, there's no way Ponting should be playing this game. They said his finger had swollen up to be twice the size as usual. He probably can't even pick up the bat.

 

[Knight Ryders]

Treated badly? The guy was a lazy fat prick, who hit the sauce pretty much every night.

Professional sportsman have to have dedication. He had none. Best decision for everyone that he moved on.

Cricket is not like most professional sports though. What has all that got to do with hitting the ball?

SA put all these obstacles in front of Cosi when the reality is, he is one of the few local talents capable of playing for Australia.

IMO, he's the most suited in Australia to the number 4 position but he'd have to score 1500+ may be 2 seasons running to get a shot.

 

[SebastianVettel]

Oh so your obviously better than him?

lol what relevance does that have?

I reckon most people that post here would have worked a ****load harder than he ever has if they had his talent.

Cricket is not like most professional sports though. What has all that got to do with hitting the ball?

SA put all these obstacles in front of Cosi when the reality is, he is one of the few local talents capable of playing for Australia.

IMO, he's the most suited in Australia to the number 4 position but he'd have to score 1500+ may be 2 seasons running to get a shot.

The guy was out on the piss nearly every night, you don't think that impairs his capability to perform at his best possible level? I'm astonished.

 

[Jimthegreat]

It's the same vics on this forum building this ridiculous stereotype of stupidity.

Clearly Khawaja is the next man in line for the batting.
Cameron White is close but unfortunately does not yet have a technique suited to Test cricket. He is too prone to getting bowled and cannot play the short ball well enough.

On the other hand if Ponting gives it away and Clarke can't make a run White would be a handy next-in-line captain.

He's not the bloke to bat at 3 though if Ponting is out. He's a number 5 or 6. I went for Marsh but Khawaja is ok.

 

[peternorth]

Most centuries White has ever hit in a Shield season?

Most runs White has ever hit in a Shield season?

Highest batting average White has ever had in a Shield season?

Most wickets White has ever taken in a Shield season?

Most wickets White has ever taken in a Shield game?

Lowest bowling average White has ever had in a Shield season?

Three pretty decent statistical indicators of each discipline. I'm guessing White wins one, maybe two, both bowling (most wickets in a Shield season and maybe lowest average).

All this despite Smith having a far younger FC career and far less development. Smith's not the finished product, not by a long way, but he's already far outperforming White at state level in FC cricket.

all good points.

unfortunately selectors dont always look at stats. take clarke. he didnt exactly set the world on fire before getting a baggy green/vice captaincy

 

[BarneyBent]

all good points.

unfortunately selectors dont always look at stats. take clarke. he didnt exactly set the world on fire before getting a baggy green/vice captaincy

He did at least have a "breakout season" in which he looked like he could be genuinely elite. I have had this discussion before, and I have to say that if the same scenario were to happen now, I'd disagree with his selection (I was too young/inexperienced to have a valid opinion at the time). In the end, it has ended pretty well (though making him captain-in-waiting so far in advance was always going to be fraught with danger, yet another thing I disagree with), and it's hard to argue that he hasn't been a Test success, even if his very recent form has been ordinary.

 

[peternorth]

He did at least have a "breakout season" in which he looked like he could be genuinely elite. I have had this discussion before, and I have to say that if the same scenario were to happen now, I'd disagree with his selection (I was too young/inexperienced to have a valid opinion at the time). In the end, it has ended pretty well (though making him captain-in-waiting so far in advance was always going to be fraught with danger, yet another thing I disagree with), and it's hard to argue that he hasn't been a Test success, even if his very recent form has been ordinary.

yep. there it is. one rule for one person, one rule for another/others.

if only it was as easy as picking players who have performed and piled on the runs/taken wickets.

but times are changing.

 

[BarneyBent]

yep. there it is. one rule for one person, one rule for another/others.

if only it was as easy as picking players who have performed and piled on the runs/taken wickets.

but times are changing.

Don't quite follow.... Callum Ferguson was on the verge of being picked for the Test side, and I dare say had he played better for Australia A he'd be in there now.

As it is, Clarke piled on the runs in one season, this season came at a very young age, they wanted youth, a spot opened up. Right place at the right time, but he would have gotten there eventually in any case.

David Hussey, by comparison, peaked at the wrong time. Struggled to get into a very good side when he was still in his prime, now the selectors consider him too old (rightly or wrongly). Hodge, well he has been discussed many times, but he can count himself unlucky.

As for White, he has never had a dominant Shield season with the bat, and his Shield average over his career is frankly quite poor. I don't actually dislike White by any means, I'd have him ahead of Ferguson and Smith in the immediate Test batsman pecking order (while I love Smithy, I can't say I agree with his selection in the Test team, though now he's there he should be persisted with), and I'd love to see him succeed at Test level.

 

[eddiesmith]

Most centuries White has ever hit in a Shield season?

Most runs White has ever hit in a Shield season?

Highest batting average White has ever had in a Shield season?

Most wickets White has ever taken in a Shield season?

Most wickets White has ever taken in a Shield game?

Lowest bowling average White has ever had in a Shield season?

Three pretty decent statistical indicators of each discipline. I'm guessing White wins one, maybe two, both bowling (most wickets in a Shield season and maybe lowest average).

All this despite Smith having a far younger FC career and far less development. Smith's not the finished product, not by a long way, but he's already far outperforming White at state level in FC cricket.

Most centuries against International opposition?

Most centuries for Australia A?

Most centuries in ODIs?

Maybe, just maybe Cameron White is one of these guys who does better when he gets higher up and he may not make as many centuries as you would like but consistent 50's or so at no6 is better than what Australia has been getting. Smith seems alot more like a guy who will score alot of 20-30 scores and thats what his recent form has been

White has also improved as he has had more exposure at ODI level and been given more responsibility there instead of the role he used to have of come in and slog. It is also very hard in this day and age for a player who is entrenched in the limited overs sides to ever put together a good first class season

Also interesting that after being bagged mercilessly for his failure at no8 because instead of averaging 30 he should be averaging 50 from no8...but now Smith is coming up to his 4th test so lets see if his average can climb above 23 or after 4 tests each he will have done worse than White...

 

[dan warna]

Pretty sure cameron white averages around 37 to 38 in ODI's and generally players average between 5 to 10 more in test cricket than their ODI form. Some exceptions have been bevan who averaged significantly more in ODI's than tests, I think Geoff Marsh was the same as bevan, s.waugh and border averaged around 30 in ODI's and 50 in test cricket, while deano and m.waugh averaged about the same for ODI's as tests.

That would indicate, that by and large, white's international form and 'technique' isn't as bad as people make out. While he is having an average season in 2010/2011, he has averaged on or around 50 for the past 4 seasons.

Add to that his canny leadership skills, and his quality century against England for Australia A, and his aggressive and adventurous play in victoria v england, if he's given time to develop at the international level he would be, or would have been a brilliant captain and quality lower order batsman (5 or 6)

I think pushing himself up the order for victoria to 3 and 4 has been a poor move.

I suspect the same people who told him to focus on his spin instead of his batting maybe telling him to bat at 3 or 4 if he wants an australia berth.

Also look at Michael clarke's form. Quality at 5 or 6 averaging 50, terrible at 4 averaging 20.

some people like Hussey will be good where-ever, hussey brings discipline and concentration to an innings. pure talent just isn't enough.

Anyone remember danny buckingham, a fat version of inzamum al huk (spelling error i know). i remember watching him 15 odd years ago, strength, power and timing, but 'run a quick single' was a foreign language to him.

Compared to england we have as much talent, maybe more. what we lack, and have done since the departure of warne and mcgrath is discipline.

 

[dan warna]

Don't quite follow.... Callum Ferguson was on the verge of being picked for the Test side, and I dare say had he played better for Australia A he'd be in there now.

As it is, Clarke piled on the runs in one season, this season came at a very young age, they wanted youth, a spot opened up. Right place at the right time, but he would have gotten there eventually in any case.

David Hussey, by comparison, peaked at the wrong time. Struggled to get into a very good side when he was still in his prime, now the selectors consider him too old (rightly or wrongly). Hodge, well he has been discussed many times, but he can count himself unlucky.

As for White, he has never had a dominant Shield season with the bat, and his Shield average over his career is frankly quite poor. I don't actually dislike White by any means, I'd have him ahead of Ferguson and Smith in the immediate Test batsman pecking order (while I love Smithy, I can't say I agree with his selection in the Test team, though now he's there he should be persisted with), and I'd love to see him succeed at Test level.

Peaked at the wrong time? should have been in the test side 5 seasons ago, should have been ahead of a fair few selected in the interim since 2005 for a middle order berth, has been consistently over looked. Anyone who argues that his technique is faulty clearly couldn't have been responsible for the selection of North, hughes, and smith.

 

[BarneyBent]

Most centuries against International opposition?

Most centuries for Australia A?

Most centuries in ODIs?

Maybe, just maybe Cameron White is one of these guys who does better when he gets higher up and he may not make as many centuries as you would like but consistent 50's or so at no6 is better than what Australia has been getting. Smith seems alot more like a guy who will score alot of 20-30 scores and thats what his recent form has been

White has also improved as he has had more exposure at ODI level and been given more responsibility there instead of the role he used to have of come in and slog. It is also very hard in this day and age for a player who is entrenched in the limited overs sides to ever put together a good first class season

Also interesting that after being bagged mercilessly for his failure at no8 because instead of averaging 30 he should be averaging 50 from no8...but now Smith is coming up to his 4th test so lets see if his average can climb above 23 or after 4 tests each he will have done worse than White...

Are you seriously trying to say that White having more international centuries than Smith is noteworthy, and suggests he is a more talented player? White is older and as such has played a lot more international cricket, of course he will have more international centuries. Stick to talking about things that have some relevance.

Smith has had an incredible start to his FC career. I have no doubt he has more talent and potential than White. That doesn't mean I'd have him ahead of White for a Test spot at this point in time, which is what you seem to be arguing. White is more experienced and technically tighter, I'd have him in the side ahead of Smith (I'd have Khawaja in ahead of either, or Cosgrove in his current form).

Pretty sure cameron white averages around 37 to 38 in ODI's and generally players average between 5 to 10 more in test cricket than their ODI form. Some exceptions have been bevan who averaged significantly more in ODI's than tests, I think Geoff Marsh was the same as bevan, s.waugh and border averaged around 30 in ODI's and 50 in test cricket, while deano and m.waugh averaged about the same for ODI's as tests.

That would indicate, that by and large, white's international form and 'technique' isn't as bad as people make out. While he is having an average season in 2010/2011, he has averaged on or around 50 for the past 4 seasons.

Add to that his canny leadership skills, and his quality century against England for Australia A, and his aggressive and adventurous play in victoria v england, if he's given time to develop at the international level he would be, or would have been a brilliant captain and quality lower order batsman (5 or 6)

Are you seriously extrapolating upon ODI form to guess at what White would average, and thinking that there is any way to do that accurately?

Sorry, but that's just ridiculous. ODI specialists exist for a reason, and there is no doubt that White is at least partially a short-form specialist. Certainly he is much stronger in these formats. You would be far better extrapolating from FC form, and while he has been much stronger in FC just recently, this is recent.

Personally, I think if White came into the side, he'd get the job done, but **** you Vics overrate him. It really is pathetic.

I think pushing himself up the order for victoria to 3 and 4 has been a poor move.

I suspect the same people who told him to focus on his spin instead of his batting maybe telling him to bat at 3 or 4 if he wants an australia berth.

Also look at Michael clarke's form. Quality at 5 or 6 averaging 50, terrible at 4 averaging 20.

some people like Hussey will be good where-ever, hussey brings discipline and concentration to an innings. pure talent just isn't enough.

Anyone remember danny buckingham, a fat version of inzamum al huk (spelling error i know). i remember watching him 15 odd years ago, strength, power and timing, but 'run a quick single' was a foreign language to him.

Compared to england we have as much talent, maybe more. what we lack, and have done since the departure of warne and mcgrath is discipline.

Can't say I disagree with any of that, nor do I understand their relevance to the topic at hand.

Peaked at the wrong time? should have been in the test side 5 seasons ago, should have been ahead of a fair few selected in the interim since 2005 for a middle order berth, has been consistently over looked. Anyone who argues that his technique is faulty clearly couldn't have been responsible for the selection of North, hughes, and smith.

Who should he not have been overlooked for? Clarke has been a success. Symonds was before he imploded. By that time the selectors probably figured he was too old. Don't necessarily agree, but age does come into the picture, and it always has.

 

[Russian]

This is going nowhere

Most of those people who've been posting in here in the last couple of days should probably read this