Society/Culture Why are young males now more right wing then older males?

[Nuggs Bunny]

I've answered this in post #652

Also, this appears the overriding issues from what is portrayed on social media and what people online have been discussing for quite some time now.

Lastly, my post is in relation to commentary coming from the USA, not Australia.

I'm also 40, so none of this is my personal experience.

Yeah for me it doesn't really answer the question at all. I get there are young men who claim to feel the way you describe, I just don't understand why they feel that way. Take your first sentence of the linked post: young men are demonised and told they're what's wrong with society - how do you arrive at that conclusion? Are the problems real, are the problems fictionalised, or are the problems there somewhat but amplified by others?

 

[plays tall 1]

I’m not sure it’s a fact that young males are now more right wing than older males. But if it is the case, then I expect it’s because they have begun to appreciate that policies put forward by self-styled “progressives” such as “affirmative action” result in them being disadvantaged. A large proportion of older males are retired or late in career and many are probably fairly happy with what they have. And, as others have noted, many older men have daughters or even granddaughters so they see the policies as being likely of benefit to those they love.

The alienation of young men is simply the outworking of these particular “progressive” policies. It would be the same for any other cohort in society if “affirmative action” policies such as quotas meant that they were likely to be denied the opportunity to obtain employment, office or opportunity which they would’ve won on merit. Let’s face it, they’d be in uproar. So why expect young men to happily accept it?

The attempts at justification of these policies seem to have failed to cut through. I doubt whether it strikes young men as fair that their career prospects should be disadvantaged due to advantages experienced by generations preceding them.

The “gender pay gap” is regularly cited as justification for affirmative action, but the numbers used typically reflect the unadjusted pay differential, which is meaningless in this context. The adjusted pay differential is a pretty subjective issue. Young men are likely to see through that type of deception and question the motives of those who put forward such justifications (i.e. the “progressive” left).

Some mentioned unions as a reason that young men should look to the left. And unions do play an important role for young men (and women) i particular in areas of workplace conditions and OH&S in particular. But unions seem to be in step with “progressive policies” these days; I can’t recall any advocating on behalf of men regarding “affirmative action” policies and the like.

 

[Carringbush2010]

If nothing else it is highly reductive, and disrespectful to the individual. There are so many things that make a person who they are, their values, beliefs, identity, etc. Reducing that to just their skin colour shows you have little interest in that person, and are more interested in the identity politics of race.

If it happened to me (white guy) I wouldn't be insulted so much as just disappointed and feel not really engaged on the human level with that person.

^ This.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Legit question, man to man. What problems do young men have and how are we disenfranchised?

I'll have a go at this.

I don't think young males are targeted by and large, they just feel like they are.

Why? Because young men aren't really talked about, they are not necessarily demonized by society at large.

Because it's all crickets and tumbleweeds about young male problems, some young males feel alienated by society.

If they are targeted as a collective 'young males', it's usually from minority groups / activists who believe that young males are privileged purely by birth right and those activists then attack them for it . Which of course some are but a lot are not.

Any whiff of this and right wing grifters and advocates use this (whether they actually believe that young males are being targeted or just grifters in bad faith) on social media, like here to exaggerate the perception.

I'm not convinced that the majority of young males do feel alienated by society by and large.

This narrative while may be true in a small amount of individual cases, is driven by media and then exacerbated in social media as some sort of 'norm'. Like any other 'culture war' it's only prominent in media and social media spheres.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

I'll have a go at this.

I don't think young males are targeted by and large, they just feel like they are.

Why? Because young men aren't really talked about, they are not necessarily demonized by society at large.

Because it's all crickets and tumbleweeds about young male problems, some young males feel alienated by society.

If they are targeted as a collective 'young males', it's usually from minority groups / activists who believe that young males are privileged purely by birth right and those activists then attack them for it . Which of course some are but a lot are not.

Any whiff of this and right wing grifters and advocates use this (whether they actually believe that young males are being targeted or just grifters in bad faith) on social media, like here to exaggerate the perception.

I'm not convinced that the majority of young males do feel alienated by society by and large.

This narrative while may be true in a small amount of individual cases, is driven by media and then exacerbated in social media as some sort of 'norm'. Like any other 'culture war' it's only prominent in media and social media spheres.

The bolded is the point though. If you feel like you're persecuted and nobody else can see it but you, nobody is going to take you seriously. And how can you expect them to, really?

 

[CM86]

Meh, if you’re insulted by that I’d argue you need some perspective.

I think it's the levels of harm.


Most racism towards non-whites in Western society tends to have some meaningful harm attached to it, even if just historic.
Prejudice towards white people is bad and shouldn't be accepted. But is often conflated with criticism and satire.

Someone making a statement like 'oh you poor white cis male, you must be so exhausted after your generations of persecution'. That's not harmful or racist.

Someone saying they hate white people, or white people don't belong etc. That's prejudice.
Black supremacists are hateful and should be condemned.


The lines blur with what a white person even is.
And then deliberately blurred between class systems.


The problem is that many people take what they should feel towards black supremacism and apply it to affirmative action
So they aren't calling out actual prejudice against white people, they are calling out measures towards equality.
And then when they get deserved push back on this, they feel even more victimised.

 

[demondavey]

I think it's the levels of harm.


Most racism towards non-whites in Western society tends to have some meaningful harm attached to it, even if just historic.
Prejudice towards white people is bad and shouldn't be accepted. But is often conflated with criticism and satire.

Someone making a statement like 'oh you poor white cis male, you must be so exhausted after your generations of persecution'. That's not harmful or racist.

Someone saying they hate white people, or white people don't belong etc. That's prejudice.
Black supremacists are hateful and should be condemned.


The lines blur with what a white person even is.
And then deliberately blurred between class systems.


The problem is that many people take what they should feel towards black supremacism and apply it to affirmative action
So they aren't calling out actual prejudice against white people, they are calling out measures towards equality.
And then when they get deserved push back on this, they feel even more victimised.

I guess I am associating it with it simply not having an offensive connotation attached to it as it doesn’t have a history of vindication, violence, persecution and oppression. As a white male in Australia I know I hide in plain sight. Calling someone a Black so and so is just so more impactful given the history associated with it.

I don’t think black supremacists have really gathered much traction, have they? Not to the point of white supremacist hate groups.

 

[CM86]

I guess I am associating it with it simply not having an offensive connotation attached to it as it doesn’t have a history of vindication, violence, persecution and oppression. As a white male in Australia I know I hide in plain sight. Calling someone a Black so and so is just so more impactful given the history associated with it.

I don’t think black supremacists have really gathered much traction, have they? Not to the point of white supremacist hate groups.

That's what I mean.

We can acknowledge that a lot of the far right drama farmers will use everything they can, and dress it up as black supremacy.
And we can dismiss it.

But we can acknowledge that there is 'racial' hatred towards 'white' people, and that actual prejudice should be condemned.


The problem is the victim complex on the right, which makes them think that all prejudice is equal, and that white males are the most vilified people.
I don't know how to reach people like that.

 

[bzparkes]

Yeah for me it doesn't really answer the question at all. I get there are young men who claim to feel the way you describe, I just don't understand why they feel that way. Take your first sentence of the linked post: young men are demonised and told they're what's wrong with society - how do you arrive at that conclusion? Are the problems real, are the problems fictionalised, or are the problems there somewhat but amplified by others?

Social media feeds mate. As I said in the post, they're engineered to keep you on platforms for longer, so if you're clicking on "women bad" content, you'll get more of it, especially those posts where one with 5 twitter followers picked up by someone desperate for engagement, who then makes a whole thread about it and uses that one post as an example.

It doesn't matter if the problems are real or not, because at a guess, 95% of people vote would vote with their 'feelings' instead of 'facts'.

People from all forms of the political spectrum know this, so they tap into it to garner support for whatever their cause is.

Shoe0nHead(a Democrat voter)has done a few entertaining videos on this.

 

[Carringbush2010]

The bolded is the point though. If you feel like you're persecuted and nobody else can see it but you, nobody is going to take you seriously. And how can you expect them to, really?

And this is a problem isn't it.

The few young males feel like they're not being taken seriously, while feeling minority are getting all the love and attention, and so the feel of alienation ensues.

 

[bzparkes]

The bolded is the point though. If you feel like you're persecuted and nobody else can see it but you, nobody is going to take you seriously. And how can you expect them to, really?

You should take it seriously, because these people can vote.

If you don't, people like Trump get elected twice.

If you want to ignore it, don't act surprised when the 'other side' offers them what they perceive as a better alternative.

 

[swingdog]

Historically, this is not unusual.

In 1930, the Nazis made substantial gains in the Reichstag on the back of a record vote from young people.

 

[demondavey]

Historically, this is not unusual.

In 1930, the Nazis made substantial gains in the Reichstag on the back of a record vote from young people.

Seeing it again here.

 

[the_interloper]

If nothing else it is highly reductive, and disrespectful to the individual. There are so many things that make a person who they are, their values, beliefs, identity, etc. Reducing that to just their skin colour shows you have little interest in that person, and are more interested in the identity politics of race.

If it happened to me (white guy) I wouldn't be insulted so much as just disappointed and feel not really engaged on the human level with that person.

Absolutely, I hear you on this one, if we worry about demographics all the time it's pretty hard to get along with people.

 

[Bigger]

A Jewish journalist from the US visited Germany in the 50s to speak to "ordinary" Germans about Nazism - how it came to be, what it meant to them - and one of the unifying threads among the many views he received was that the Nazis, after the economic devastation of the 20s and 30s, brought hope and joy. One of his interviewees was a Jewish woman who recalled being a child and looking out the window at a passing Hitlerjugend march and wishing she could have been part of it because of the joy and energy.

If the economic situation is such that you can ignore or downplay the broader significance of fascism's agenda in favour of the bits where the trains run on time and there are jobs and the scary "other" is controlled and won't hurt you, then the appeal of the ultraright to the threatened is not too mystifying.

The mystifying part is why what was once the inherently priviliged should feel threatened.

The contemporary populist Right have nailed two things in their rise to supremacy and in their appeal to young people. The first trick was to inextricably link "the elite" with intellectuals rather than with wealth and the second was to master the tools of the internet. Their messages - simple, blunt, aggressive, funny - go well with the structures of social media. No time for a nuanced discussion - instead you can see blahblah crush his woke opponent in no time flat. It's cruel and quick and funny.

That the wealthy are perceived as correct - they must be right; they're rich - is not the only helpful byproduct of the linking of elitism with education/intellectuals and the severance of association with wealth. The chattering class's fascination with identity politics and its move away from economic/class politics is genuinely disenfranchising to the traditional working class/underclass.

The natural aversion to the excesses of "woke" and the way the right have seized upon that further blind the young and dumb to the real issue - the way the class war is being so convincingly won by the rich.

Trumpism has so successfully butt****ed traditional notions of truth and meaning that old terms like Nazi no longer mean much nor carry the weight they used to.

It doesn't help that Israel have spent the last few decades being horrific campaigners. A Jewish nation having so successfully shifted from being the bullied to being the bully has helped erode the negative power and forbidden nature of Nazism. It is no longer the ultimate verboten, the unalloyed symbol of bad. It is, instead, something that occurred sufficiently long enough ago in time such that alleged geniuses like Elon Musk can argue that they were socialists/communists - because socialism is in their name - and a more fulsome and accurate understanding is denied the audience of such prattling.

Young men are stupid. It's not their fault. They just are. They are prime feeding ground for the rapacious. They want to hear they are special and great and are being held back by the prevailing corrupt orthodoxies.

And they want to **** bitches and it's totally the bitches' fault they are not getting any.

 

[errant bounce]

If there was an argument that feminists were acting a certain way, because of how they were being portrayed, what would your reaction be?

If Aborigines were being portrayed as being more aggressive, more confrontational, as a consequence of how they were portrayed and stigmatised, what would your reaction be?

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

'Aborigines'

 

[errant bounce]

A Jewish journalist from the US visited Germany in the 50s to speak to "ordinary" Germans about Nazism - how it came to be, what it meant to them - and one of the unifying threads among the many views he received was that the Nazis, after the economic devastation of the 20s and 30s, brought hope and joy. One of his interviewees was a Jewish woman who recalled being a child and looking out the window at a passing Hitlerjugend march and wishing she could have been part of it because of the joy and energy.

If the economic situation is such that you can ignore or downplay the broader significance of fascism's agenda in favour of the bits where the trains run on time and there are jobs and the scary "other" is controlled and won't hurt you, then the appeal of the ultraright to the threatened is not too mystifying.

The mystifying part is why what was once the inherently priviliged should feel threatened.

The contemporary populist Right have nailed two things in their rise to supremacy and in their appeal to young people. The first trick was to inextricably link "the elite" with intellectuals rather than with wealth and the second was to master the tools of the internet. Their messages - simple, blunt, aggressive, funny - go well with the structures of social media. No time for a nuanced discussion - instead you can see blahblah crush his woke opponent in no time flat. It's cruel and quick and funny.

That the wealthy are perceived as correct - they must be right; they're rich - is not the only helpful byproduct of the linking of elitism with education/intellectuals and the severance of association with wealth. The chattering class's fascination with identity politics and its move away from economic/class politics is genuinely disenfranchising to the traditional working class/underclass.

The natural aversion to the excesses of "woke" and the way the right have seized upon that further blind the young and dumb to the real issue - the way the class war is being so convincingly won by the rich.

Trumpism has so successfully butt****ed traditional notions of truth and meaning that old terms like Nazi no longer mean much nor carry the weight they used to.

It doesn't help that Israel have spent the last few decades being horrific campaigners. A Jewish nation having so successfully shifted from being the bullied to being the bully has helped erode the negative power and forbidden nature of Nazism. It is no longer the ultimate verboten, the unalloyed symbol of bad. It is, instead, something that occurred sufficiently long enough ago in time such that alleged geniuses like Elon Musk can argue that they were socialists/communists - because socialism is in their name - and a more fulsome and accurate understanding is denied the audience of such prattling.

Young men are stupid. It's not their fault. They just are. They are prime feeding ground for the rapacious. They want to hear they are special and great and are being held back by the prevailing corrupt orthodoxies.

And they want to **** bitches and it's totally the bitches' fault they are not getting any.

People want change in times of desperation and unhappiness. someone who says to you outright that they can change it and this is how is going to appeal to people, particularly in an era where everyone from your boss to your politician speak in non-committal phraseology. someone cut and dry saying this is the reason and this is the fix is going to appeal to people.

It's also not just young men, it's mostly people who feel like they're losing or have already lost. I've worked with some real ****heads who are single dads and seemingly deserve to be in a deadbeat position because they're 55 and overweight, bragging about drinking a bottle of spirits every night, spending money on prostitutes and online gaming... they feel the world they once saw and the dream they maybe once had come true is gone and has betrayed them, so they get into Trump and a nontraditional system and also quite often get really into conspiracy rabbitholes. they want to make sense of things and to also feel like they have the answer that society doesn't, because society hasn't given them the solution.

I'm not saying it's right but it definitely isn't a 'dumb young men' thing.

For every incel or sex pest hinge obsessed gym guy listening to Tate or Peterson or some microversion of them, there's a vacuous woman watching umm some like umm tiktok clip of a like, ah, this deeeeeep podcast that like, talks about how like, it's not bad to have 50-plus 'body counts' at 20 and like, hoodies and vaping and going to BTV.

Men and women both subscribe to stupid pricks who tell them it's not their fault and they're just hard done by.

Gender wars are a huge thing now. women bemoan no man comes up to them but most men have had one or two cruel rejections and don't bother again, because why would they? nobody wants to make someone feel unsafe and nobody wants to be tarred a sexual predator. and then it goes in this circle/cycle.

And no I'm not a ****ing incel but most people here are probably 40-plus. there's a huge amount of men who have gone off dating because it really isn't worth their time or money, while women – because a good date is so rare – have certain standards of a good date and that can't really be fulfilled because, spending a day at work to go on a date and plonk down a hundred bucks and all the mental energy for a 'maybe' is just not worth it.

 

[nobbyiscool]

My theory isn't that young males are more right wing - I think they're just a bit confused and clueless, and it's not their fault.

People like Joe Rogan, and even Trump, Tate - cult of personality types - they give confused young men something to understand and believe them.

We told a whole generation of young men, who are now in their 20s, that everything they understood about masculinity was bad/wrong/outdated... but we never replaced it with anything, cos we never truly understood the answers ourselves. We still don't.

They don't even have success and aspiration to believe in, cos they've seen the generation immediately above them being screwed by a broken economy.

 

[Bigger]

My theory isn't that young males are more right wing - I think they're just a bit confused and clueless, and it's not their fault.

People like Joe Rogan, and even Trump, Tate - cult of personality types - they give confused young men something to understand and believe them.

We told a whole generation of young men, who are now in their 20s, that everything they understood about masculinity was bad/wrong/outdated... but we never replaced it with anything, cos we never truly understood the answers ourselves. We still don't.

They don't even have success and aspiration to believe in, cos they've seen the generation immediately above them being screwed by a broken economy.

Good points, well made.

The scary part is how quick it comes to force. If the whole thrust of toxic masculinity, the driving animus of the manosphere, is “Might is right; weakness is to be scorned” then physically overpowering your opponent becomes the quick and inevitable conclusion of any disagreement.

I thought we had kind of sorted that shit out through the 80s and 90s but it’s back and on tren.

 

[Bigger]

Good points, well made.

The scary part is how quick it comes to force. If the whole thrust of toxic masculinity, the driving animus of the manosphere, is “Might is right; weakness is to be scorned” then physically overpowering your opponent becomes the quick and inevitable conclusion of any disagreement.

I thought we had kind of sorted that shit out through the 80s and 90s but it’s back and on tren.

Also, that they are clueless and adrift in an ever -shrinking echo chamber which tells them to get huge or get ****ed, makes them extremely ripe for rightwing plucking.

 

[South of the Yarra]

If there was an argument that feminists were acting a certain way, because of how they were being portrayed, what would your reaction be?

If Aborigines were being portrayed as being more aggressive, more confrontational, as a consequence of how they were portrayed and stigmatised, what would your reaction be?

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

Just letting you know that the word Aborigines can be highly offensive to many Aboriginals.

 

[kickazz]

My theory isn't that young males are more right wing - I think they're just a bit confused and clueless, and it's not their fault.

People like Joe Rogan, and even Trump, Tate - cult of personality types - they give confused young men something to understand and believe them.

We told a whole generation of young men, who are now in their 20s, that everything they understood about masculinity was bad/wrong/outdated... but we never replaced it with anything, cos we never truly understood the answers ourselves. We still don't.

They don't even have success and aspiration to believe in, cos they've seen the generation immediately above them being screwed by a broken economy

Yeah good points.

Is there any real understanding of issues? We used to have quality shows like 7:30, Sunday, Lateline that would interview Left and Right alike. You'd gain an understanding of issues and viewpoints.

No one has time for that shit now, it's just slogans and memes and bullshit. Facts don't matter. It's the information age but we are less informed than we have been in ages.

To quote Blackadder "to you, the Renaissance was just something that happened to other people"

It's just ignorance

 

[errant bounce]

Just letting you know that the word Aborigines can be highly offensive to many Aboriginals.

It's a stupid outdated term and makes cartoons out of them, it's like calling Native Americans 'Indians.' more suitable to a time when they were seen as funny little characters in Hogan movies more than actual people with a culture of their own, not some funny thing to ogle.

 

[errant bounce]

Yeah good points.

Is there any real understanding of issues? We used to have quality shows like 7:30, Sunday, Lateline that would interview Left and Right alike. You'd gain an understanding of issues and viewpoints.

No one has time for that shit now, it's just slogans and memes and bullshit. Facts don't matter. It's the information age but we are less informed than we have been in ages.

To quote Blackadder "to you, the Renaissance was just something that happened to other people"

It's just ignorance

Those shows are all utter shit.

I know a lot of people, mostly women, who love watching those SBS or youtube shows where they get a feminist and a men's rights activist to have 'discourse.' wtf is that going to do, it doesn't equalise anything and just others each party and draws more division.

Half the time the casting is just a cliche idea of those people. the lefty is some chick with the tattoos and piercings and a little crop top and the righty is some old white guy with the same amount of tattoos but just less trendy ones.

There's plenty of women who believe we have far too many migrants and kind of understand why people flock to Trump. and there's plenty of men in their 60s who have gotten the internet and spotify podcasts and have jumped onto supporting gender spectrums.

Most of it is just redundant anyway, both parties feel oppressed and poor and denied opportunity. they all just want a nice house, not to work as much, and a healthy family.

 

[kickazz]

Those shows are all utter shit.

I know a lot of people, mostly women, who love watching those SBS or youtube shows where they get a feminist and a men's rights activist to have 'discourse.' wtf is that going to do, it doesn't equalise anything and just others each party and draws more division.

Half the time the casting is just a cliche idea of those people. the lefty is some chick with the tattoos and piercings and a little crop top and the righty is some old white guy with the same amount of tattoos but just less trendy ones.

There's plenty of women who believe we have far too many migrants and kind of understand why people flock to Trump. and there's plenty of men in their 60s who have gotten the internet and spotify podcasts and have jumped onto supporting gender spectrums.

Most of it is just redundant anyway, both parties feel oppressed and poor and denied opportunity. they all just want a nice house, not to work as much, and a healthy family.

Yeah I'm talking like eighties and nineties. Haven't watched anything now but imagine they are full of points scoring and gotchas