why aren't Fitzroy's premierships considered part of Brisbane Lions history?

[GC2015]

For the period of 1987 to 1996 the two clubs were opponents. The Bears' second highest score of 187 was kicked against Fitzroy. How does that figure in merged records?

Things are easier to argue from a 'vibe' point of view because (A) it was a relatively short period of time in the scope of the league and (B) neither club ran into each other in a grand final or even on the way to one in the finals. Imagine if Hawthorn and Essendon merged? Do their supporters both claim a 1983-1985 threepeat?

Well, what were they going to do? When it looked like North and Fitzroy were going to merge in 1996. How would that have played out? Would North just assume all of Fitzroy's premierships or would we get what we have now with Brisbane? What about when Hawthorn and Melbourne were looking like they were going to merge in the 90s?

And the Supreme Court made rulings in 2010 that for legal purposes supersede any AFL declaration, that's why Roylion bolds those elements in his reposts.

Has the Supreme Court made any ruling on which entity has a claim to the VFL/AFL history of Fitzroy? If they haven't then surely whatever the AFL rules stands, until overruled by the Supreme Court. Seems to be a real grey area right now because the AFL appears to recognise Brownlows won by Fitzroy players as Brisbane Lions' Brownlow medallists, but not premerships won by Fitzroy.

Who can own history?

...

They control their competition and its history.

According to you, the AFL owns its competition history, which includes Fitzroy's involvement in the VFL/AFL. So the AFL could very easily clear this up and just make a statement that all Fitzroy records are assumed by the Brisbane Lions, but they haven't done that and I reckon that's been done on purpose for symphathetic reasons.

The AFL will market the events of 1996 as a merger. However there was no merger.


Marketing. The AFL markets the events of 1996 as a merger

In reality the Brisbane Bears / Lions (formed 1986) and the Fitzroy Football Club (formed 1883) are two different clubs.

I understand that it wasn't a merger, but if the AFL is going to market it as a merger then they should also clear up whether the Brisbane Lions have a claim to all or none of Fitzroy's historical VFL/AFL achievements. This half in, half out approach is confusing.

Will Lachie Neale be the Lions' 5th or 12th Brownlow medallist should he poll the most votes tomorrow night? Will he tie Hadyn Bunton Sr's club record of three Brownlows or does he already hold the club record for most Brownlows won by a Lion? According to the AFL's social media accounts, the answer is that all of Fitzroy's Brownlow history has been assumed by the Brisbane Lions.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Has the Supreme Court made any ruling on which entity has a claim to the VFL/AFL history of Fitzroy? If they haven't then surely whatever the AFL rules stands, until overruled by the Supreme Court. Seems to be a real grey area right now because the AFL appears to recognise Brownlows won by Fitzroy players as Brisbane Lions' Brownlow medallists, but not premerships won by Fitzroy.

The point being is that the whole starting point of the argument was that the Lions claimed in the very legal arguments that they presented to the Supreme Court (and accepted by the court) that they were only ever Bears rebrand Lions in the AFL. By extension, it's impossible for them to own the Fitzroy history. This is because they themselves are not claiming a merged entity which would be the only circumstance that you could equally claim the history, especially as it pertains specifically of the 1987-1996 period, which would require giving equal weight to those two teams for that period. But the Lions never made that argument, legally, at the Supreme Court, in 2010.

They're allowed to promote and be the custodian of the history, in particular in how it rates to an ongoing basis in the highest level competition played in Victoria/Australia bit they're not allowed to "own" it. That may seem like a trivi distinction, but it isn't.

 

[Roylion]

Well, what were they going to do? When it looked like North and Fitzroy were going to merge in 1996. How would that have played out?

That was a merger that both the boards of the respective clubs wanted. Unlike the Bears merger. Not one Fitzroy director has ever served on the Brisbane Lions board.

Would North just assume all of Fitzroy's premierships or would we get what we have now with Brisbane?

A new entity was possibly going to be formed and the records would have started anew for the North Fitzroy Kangaroos. That includes issuing a new licence.

What about when Hawthorn and Melbourne were looking like they were going to merge in the 90s?

Likely the same as above

Has the Supreme Court made any ruling on which entity has a claim to the VFL/AFL history of Fitzroy?

No. Why would they? Why can't both the Brisbane Lions (as a current entity in the AFL) and the Fitzroy Football Cub (formerly of the AFL) both be the custodians - the Lions in the AFL and Fitzroy (as the actual club).

If they haven't then surely whatever the AFL rules stands, until overruled by the Supreme Court.

It's the AFL's competition. They can do as they please to recognise their own history. They can't take that history from Fitzroy nor can they say to Fitzroy that thye cant recognise their own club's history.

Seems to be a real grey area right now because the AFL appears to recognise Brownlows won by Fitzroy players as Brisbane Lions' Brownlow medallists, but not premerships won by Fitzroy.

Marketing.

According to you, the AFL owns its competition history, which includes Fitzroy's involvement in the VFL/AFL.

It's their competition. They can recognise the history as they see fit.

So the AFL could very easily clear this up and just make a statement that all Fitzroy records are assumed by the Brisbane Lions, but they haven't done that and I reckon that's been done on purpose for symphathetic reasons.

A letter I received some time ago.

"We acknowledge receipt of your letter of 5th July, 2001 and wish to advise the following.

The question of the statistical and historical records of the Fitzroy Football Club, the Brisbane Bears and Brisbane Lions has been the subject of considerable discussion between our Football Operations department and our Historian and Statistician.

We have resolved the following

1 . For players who played for Fitzroy or the Brisbane Bears, their records were ruled off as at October 31, 1996.

2. For players who played for the Brisbane Bears/Brisbane Lions, for example, Marcus Ashcroft, their playing records were combined based on the principle of continuous service. This approach has been strongly supported by various senior media commentators.

3. Players who played for Fitzroy and the Brisbane Bears/Brisbane Lions should not have their playing records combined.

4. Using Alastair Lynch as an example and there are others including Chris Johnson and Martin Pike who played for Fitzroy against the Brisbane Bears, we did not believe it was logical to have those games for Fitzroy against the Brisbane Bears counted as part of the combined total of games for the Brisbane Lions.

5. Given that the Brisbane Lions' position has been that the playing records of players who represented the Brisbane Bears and Brisbane Lions should be continuous, we also felt it was logical that the match records of the club including head to head against other clubs should also be continuous.

6. By designating the number of games players such as Alastair Lynch and Martin Pike have played for Fitzroy, we believe we are appropriately recognising their Fitzroy history and heritage. Again, using Martin Pike as an example, he played 36 games for Fitzroy including some for Fitzroy against the Brisbane Bears. He also played at Melbourne and with the Kangaroos before being drafted by the Brisbane Lions last year.
We did not believe it was logical for Pike being regarded as having played 37 games for the Brisbane Lions after he played his first game for the Lions this year.

In addition, our statistics department will continue to record the history of the Fitzroy Football Club and it will be continued to be presented in our official annual statistical history which is provided to the media and sold at various book stores.

Yours sincerely,

TONY PEEK
General Manager. Corporate Affairs & Communications"

I understand that it wasn't a merger, but if the AFL is going to market it as a merger then they should also clear up whether the Brisbane Lions have a claim to all or none of Fitzroy's historical VFL/AFL achievements. This half in, half out approach is confusing.

That's the AFL for you.

Will Lachie Neale be the Lions' 5th or 12th Brownlow medallist should he poll the most votes tomorrow night?

5th.

Will he tie Hadyn Bunton Sr's club record of three Brownlows or does he already hold the club record for most Brownlows won by a Lion?

Already holds the record.

According to the AFL's social media accounts, the answer is that all of Fitzroy's Brownlow history has been assumed by the Brisbane Lions.

Marketing.

 

[buttermuffs]

For the period of 1987 to 1996 the two clubs were opponents. The Bears' second highest score of 187 was kicked against Fitzroy. How does that figure in merged records?

Things are easier to argue from a 'vibe' point of view because (A) it was a relatively short period of time in the scope of the league and (B) neither club ran into each other in a grand final or even on the way to one in the finals. Imagine if Hawthorn and Essendon merged? Do their supporters both claim a 1983-1985 threepeat?

You just run with it. Like **** it why not have the club record show that the club scored its second best ever score against its other half. It’s only confusing if you know nothing about it.

Really the only thing that was slightly concerning was if Fitzroy and the Bears both were competing and winning premierships in the years they overlapped. That didn’t happen though since Fitzroy last played finals in ‘86 and the Bears came in the year after. With their last premiership being in ‘44 as well there’s no reason why that can’t be considered official shared history.

 

[The Tilt]

Will Lachie Neale be the Lions' 5th or 12th Brownlow medallist should he poll the most votes tomorrow night? Will he tie Hadyn Bunton Sr's club record of three Brownlows or does he already hold the club record for most Brownlows won by a Lion? According to the AFL's social media accounts, the answer is that all of Fitzroy's Brownlow history has been assumed by the Brisbane Lions.

See, I think you're putting too way much store on the AFL's social media activity. The post on the Brownlow tally was likely made by a dim-witted 23-year old Comms adviser who works weekends. It really doesn't count for anything.

The only Brownlows won by players playing for the Brisbane Lions were won after 1987, since the club has only existed since 1987. It's that simple.