Society/Culture Why Australia needs to lower its immigration intake

[Gethelred]

This thread is about a lot of things, but one of the things it is not about is crime.

The next person who seeks to make a connection between violent crime and immigration by posting about it in here will receive a threadban and an infraction equivalent to the racism it portrays.

Should you want to talk about violent crime, the 'African gangs' thread is both thataway:

Vic - Melbourne's Sudanese gangs

The Victorian government and police management have finally been shamed into admitting there's a problems with African gangs. On 20th December, after eight police were overpowered by a gang of 100 mainly South Sudanese youths who trashed a Werribee Airbnb-rented property, smashing car...

www.bigfooty.com

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Let's stay on topic from here.

 

[Chief]

I am not an electricity manufacturer mate , all I know is we should be producing the cheapest and most reliable form of energy possible and not worry about our carbon output .

Not worry about pollution? Why would you completely disregard the pollution from energy production?

Do you want to live in a crappy environment just so it’s cheap to turn the lights on?

 

[The Delusionist]

If wages are not left to the free market you end up with a situation were many small businesses will go broke and the whole economy will suffer. Unions and government should only play a very small role .

So we need immigration to ensure that small businesses don't go broke, and avoid the whole economy suffering?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

If wages are not left to the free market you end up with a situation were many small businesses will go broke and the whole economy will suffer. Unions and government should only play a very small role .

That's why I reckon there should be compromise between the two. Neither should have overwhelming power in what should be a mutualistic relationship. Employers need employees (at least until the robots take over!) and vice versa.

 

[Proud SJW]

You forgot to list the other millions of factors that go into how an economy is affected.

So has everyone else.
"The cost of living" is currently sitting within a fairly limited definition and framework.

 

[Brick Loosener]

Lessen indigenous infant mortality rates?

 

[Seeds]

It needs to be sharply curbed (and this is from the ABC)

It's a very simple equation: more people means more economic activity and that gives the government of the day an easy way to keep crowing on about good economic management. But more people does not mean that the living standards of the existing population also rise. In fact, it can have detrimental economic effects for the people who are already here. New workers mean greater competition for jobs, which suppresses wages. The most recent data shows that wages growth in Australia has hit a record low of just 1.9 per cent per annum. More people also mean more demand for scarce goods and services. When there's already a tight supply of a particular good, it can mean huge price rises.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-19/high-immigration-masks-australian-economic-decline/8193628

that chart is incomplete if you dont also show the change in the age dependency ratio. perhaps we just have a whole lot more retirees now with the baby boomers retiring.

 

[Seeds]

Its no secret that over the past 10 years most Australians have not scene a rise in their living standards as the costs of living have gone up and up while wages for most Australians have remained stagnant. I put a lot of this down to our high levels of immigration , while I acknowledge its not the only factor non the less it is a major one .

Our high levels of immigration are causing the following problems

1. Keep wages down -this is a simple one with a greater supply of workers business no longer need to pay them higher wages to keep them. In most cases a business can get rid of a worker and then replace them with total ease.

2.Increase the cost of living - another simple one as a greater demand for commodities means businesses can charge a higher price .

3.Strain on our infrastructure- the reality is we can not build the required infrastructure needed to accommodate an extra 1 million people every 4 years.

4.Social cohesion- Australia is just not a country that everyone can easily assimilate into. Many of our recent immigrants are just struggling to assimilate into the Australian culture .

Australia needs to desperately reduce its immigration intake down to 70,000 and as fast as possible.

inflation is at record lows so why are you saying cost of living is a problem?

 

[Seeds]

If you believe in the law of supply and demand how can you not believe that immigration is causing the problems were talking about ?

The big drivers are carbon reduction policy, high taxes, outdated IR policy and too much red tape.

restricting immigration is in fact a form of red tape. Constraining the ability of businesses to access labour.

 

[Snake_Baker]

that chart is incomplete if you dont also show the change in the age dependency ratio. perhaps we just have a whole lot more retirees now with the baby boomers retiring.

Wouldn't that further support my premise?

restricting immigration is in fact a form of red tape. Constraining the ability of businesses to access labour.

Bullshit like this has been lifting profits and screwing the working man for decades. Give it any labels you like, but adjustments need to be made to raise the standard of living for those at the lower end of the wage scale, and trimming immigration is a way to assist this.

 

[Seeds]

Wouldn't that further support my premise?



Bullshit like this has been lifting profits and screwing the working man for decades. Give it any labels you like, but adjustments need to be made to raise the standard of living for those at the lower end of the wage scale, and trimming immigration is a way to assist this.

but doesnt trimming immigration just result in more poor people overseas? why does your care for the plight of the poor stop at an imaginary border? In any case I was just pointing out the inconsistency between crazys hatred of red tape and immigration. Some red tape is good as it stops negative externalities. But not sure crazy would understand that.

If the age dependency ratio is rising then the wage per worker ratio will be growing faster then the income per capita ratio and it could refute your point. But ofcourse it depends on how much the age dependency ratio is changing and in which direction it is changing. If it aint growing by much or falling then it will vindicate your point.

 

[Snake_Baker]

but doesnt trimming immigration just result in more poor people overseas?

Please don't bother using this internationalist bullshit with me.

why does your care for the plight of the poor stop at an imaginary border?

1) Change can realistically be impacted much better at a local level.
2) The factors that involve immigration and downward pressures on lower wage groups don't give two stuffs about the plights of any Biafrans. It's greed cloaked inside a cheap emotional stunt.
3) Robbing Peter to pay Paul is a flawed concept when only Rupert's profits go up as a result.

If the age dependency ratio is rising then the wage per worker ratio will be growing faster then the income per capita ratio and it could refute your point. But of course it depends on how much the age dependency ratio is changing and in which direction it is changing. If it aint growing by much or falling then it will vindicate your point.

But it isn't.

 

[Fire]

illegal immigration hurts the economy. But the OP is talking about intake so they aren't being referred to here.

there is nothing to suggest that legal immigration does so.

in fact larger populations support more specialised industries, which in turn creates a stronger, more diverse economy, while at the same time creating more diverse career opportunities for citizens. In other words, increased standards of living.

The reason for wage stagnation is because of rampant crony capitalism currently taking over the globe.

Only dogmatic xenophobic ideology could possibly argue that its because of 'immigrants'.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

restricting immigration is in fact a form of red tape. Constraining the ability of businesses to access labour.

As i have said a million times i beleive in small government not no government. Some red tape is required. Immigration policy is also not something that is going to bog business down on a day to day basis.

The reality is that if we want to maintain a high standard of living for all Australians we need strong boarders.

 

[Summer Nights]

I don’t agree with the contention at all. Immigration helps build great nations, from the multiple invasions of Britain to the Americas. I’m a supporter, though, of well controlled migration and limited only to quality people who deserve the opportunity. I’d go as far as saying that a good migrant candidate with a poor quality spouse/extended family isn’t allowed to migrate. It’s often the pathetic, sick or entitled family members who bring down the overall net benefit.

 

[Seeds]

Please don't bother using this internationalist bullshit with me.



1) Change can realistically be impacted much better at a local level.
2) The factors that involve immigration and downward pressures on lower wage groups don't give two stuffs about the plights of any Biafrans. It's greed cloaked inside a cheap emotional stunt.
3) Robbing Peter to pay Paul is a flawed concept when only Rupert's profits go up as a result.



But it isn't.

if the wage per worker ratio isnt growing then show that chart and not some incomplete proxy in income per capita. Ive never seen a chart actually showing wages per worker not growing. Sure its slowed down but its still growing.

 

[Seeds]

I don’t agree with the contention at all. Immigration helps build great nations, from the multiple invasions of Britain to the Americas. I’m a supporter, though, of well controlled migration and limited only to quality people who deserve the opportunity. I’d go as far as saying that a good migrant candidate with a poor quality spouse/extended family isn’t allowed to migrate. It’s often the pathetic, sick or entitled family members who bring down the overall net benefit.

gees even trump doesnt go that far on immigration.

 

[Seeds]

As i have said a million times i beleive in small government not no government. Some red tape is required. Immigration policy is also not something that is going to bog business down on a day to day basis.

The reality is that if we want to maintain a high standard of living for all Australians we need strong boarders.

you dont think having access to cheap labour bogs down business? Explain that to the Australian manufacturing sector which has collapsed, even with generous subsidies, because of a lack of access to cheap labour that exists in other countries. If closing down entire industries isnt bogging down business then what is?

 

[TimmeT]

you dont think having access to cheap labour bogs down business? Explain that to the Australian manufacturing sector which has collapsed, even with generous subsidies, because of a lack of access to cheap labour that exists in other countries. If closing down entire industries isnt bogging down business then what is?

Immigration or is it the union influence?

 

[Seeds]

illegal immigration hurts the economy. But the OP is talking about intake so they aren't being referred to here.

there is nothing to suggest that legal immigration does so.

in fact larger populations support more specialised industries, which in turn creates a stronger, more diverse economy, while at the same time creating more diverse career opportunities for citizens. In other words, increased standards of living.

The reason for wage stagnation is because of rampant crony capitalism currently taking over the globe.

Only dogmatic xenophobic ideology could possibly argue that its because of 'immigrants'.

agree although i would add that globalisation, labour savign technology development, government policies which discourage new industries/higher level education and even feminism and the increase in supply of female workers have all contributed to a slowdown in wage growth.

Note im definately not against female workers nor globalisation nor technology development but they are contributing factors nonetheless.

 

[Seeds]

Immigration or is it the union influence?

union has had an influence no doubt but even without a union you arent going to get australians working for 2 bucks an hour. And for good reason too.

 

[DaRick]

Surprisingly, I don't think geelong_crazy26 is entirely wrong.

In particular, I am concerned that foreign workers (and that includes student visa holders BTW) are used as cheap, exploitable labour, rather than to address actual skills and labour shortages (also enables employers to avoid training locals, which many in my experience can't or won't do). Plus of course there are issues with strained infrastructure and culture clashes.

That said however, I am in favour of increasing our humanitarian intake of genuine refugees, whereas Abbott very likely isn't.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

you dont think having access to cheap labour bogs down business? Explain that to the Australian manufacturing sector which has collapsed, even with generous subsidies, because of a lack of access to cheap labour that exists in other countries. If closing down entire industries isnt bogging down business then what is?

What has killed the manufacturing industry is that we have an IR system that does not let them compete with other countries .Plus high taxes and high energy costs.

 

[Bombermania]

Its no secret that over the past 10 years most Australians have not scene a rise in their living standards as the costs of living have gone up and up while wages for most Australians have remained stagnant. I put a lot of this down to our high levels of immigration , while I acknowledge its not the only factor non the less it is a major one .

Our high levels of immigration are causing the following problems

1. Keep wages down -this is a simple one with a greater supply of workers business no longer need to pay them higher wages to keep them. In most cases a business can get rid of a worker and then replace them with total ease.

2.Increase the cost of living - another simple one as a greater demand for commodities means businesses can charge a higher price .

3.Strain on our infrastructure- the reality is we can not build the required infrastructure needed to accommodate an extra 1 million people every 4 years.

4.Social cohesion- Australia is just not a country that everyone can easily assimilate into. Many of our recent immigrants are just struggling to assimilate into the Australian culture .

Australia needs to desperately reduce its immigration intake down to 70,000 and as fast as possible.

1) Keep wages down: Yes and no, wages for many industries are far higher in the cities than they are in rural and regional centres, this is particularly true for jobs that are customer/sales focuses including professional services, sure if an industry has excess labour slack then wage growth will be slower at the micro level, but on a macro level having a higher populations results in higher wages.

2) Increase the cost of living: Nup, the cost of living depends on a range of local economic factors, for example take-away is more costly in a wealthier area than a poorer area because the local economy is seen as being able to handle higher prices.

3) Strain on our infrastructure: A lack of planning and poor policy decisions such as an irrational fear of government debt is more responsible than immigration for pressure on infrastructure.

4) Social cohesion: Not sure there is evidence to support this, sure there are some issues within certain immigrant communities however they are not the bulk of the immigration intake and while those two or three community groups might have issues however they are not all struggling to fit in, take a look at the Essendon District Football League which has a number of Muslims actively being involved.

 

[Bombermania]

One thing about recent immigrants which is having an indirect influence is on the union movement, earlier waves of immigration were from backgrounds like the Irish and Europeans which were more class based so they were more willing to join unions as they enjoyed having a crack at the bosses, wheres recent immigrants from Asia and the Middle East seem less into taking the bosses on. Another thing which is often overlooked is how the nature of work is changing, many of the people moaning about lack of wage growth still see work as being about manufacturing or trade based where you don't aspire to move up the corporate ladder wheres many younger people are today more likely to be employed in professional services and are more interested in moving up the corporate ladder, this is why many old style lefties find it difficult to connect with younger workers.

 

[Seeds]

What has killed the manufacturing industry is that we have an IR system that does not let them compete with other countries .Plus high taxes and high energy costs.

and how exactly would fixing the ir system help labour intensive manufacturers compete with overseas companies who could pay workers only 2 dollars and hour?