Expansion Why don't Sydney NRL fans go to games?

[walhawk]

Serious question.

We are told that NRL is as popular in Sydney as AFL is in Melbourne - yet the crowds are about 1/3 the size.

Crowds of 14K attended each of the 'Blockbuster 100th year Celebration Heritage Round' matches between arch rivals St George V Canterbury & Parra V Manly. Correct me if I am wrong but these are probably the 4 biggest drawing Sydney RL clubs. (i.e Carlton V Collingwood & Essendon V Richmond).

Is non attendence of sport a cultural thing in Sydney?
But how would this explain the Swans crowds?

Is it cultural to RL? - Because it's 'better on TV'?
Then again, most matches are not on TV.

The fact that the stadiums are smaller is not relevant as they are rarely sold out (the St George V Bulldogs game was at the 80K Olympic stadium).

Support is not dwindling - crowds in Sydney have been roughly the same for 50 years.
But why aren't they growing like they are in other codes and/or other cities?

Is this a worry for the AFL entering a market that does not seem very passionate about attending sport?

AFL is growing everywhere.
NRL is growing in Queensland (and elsewhere), but why not in Sydney?

 

[nescri]

The Swans are the only AFL team in Sydney, and average a crowd of 30k(?)

Same as the Tahs, who average around 20k.

Pretty poor considering these teams represent a whole city, let alone the entire state!
Net crowds for the 9 League teams representing different parts of Sydney surpass both of those codes.

Every match IS on tv btw. Theres been plenty of discussion about the difference between AFL and League on tv. (I suggest you back track through the threads)




And you wonder why this board is trolled !

 

[RUNVS]

The Swans are the only AFL team in Sydney, and average a crowd of 30k(?)

Same as the Tahs, who average around 20k.

Pretty poor considering these teams represent a whole city, let alone the entire state!
Net crowds for the 9 League teams representing different parts of Sydney surpass both of those codes.

Every match IS on tv btw. Theres been plenty of discussion about the difference between AFL and League on tv. (I suggest you back track through the threads)




And you wonder why this board is trolled !

He was comparing the 10 AFL teams in Victoria to the 10 NRL teams in NSW. He wasnt comparing the 10 NRL teams in NSW to the 1 AFL team in NSW.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

As has been discussed elsewhere, there are numerous reasons.

TV is one thing. Australian Football is indisputably better at the ground, as not everything of importance happens around the ball. Leads, matchups, etc, can be seen live that simply can't fit in any decent camera shot. The same is not true of league, where the tight shots of TV give better veiwing.

The grounds themselves. Its a chicken and egg thing to a degree. They would get better crowds at better, and bigger, venues. But without bigger crowds, its not worth having the venues. Ground rationalisation hasn't taken hold in the NRL as much as it has in the AFL.

Related to that is Sydney itself. Its an impossible city to get around, with possibly the worst public transport system in the western (and much of the eastern) world and traffic that's not much better. Although the traffic situation eases on weekends. Again, ground rationalisation could help this; then again there are no trains to the SFS (and SCG). Mebourne's grounds are both central and well-serviced by transport options - the walkway from the "dome" to Southern Cross being the worst point when it comes to access. Even Kardinia Park isn't bad to get to, either driving or by train.

I also think the idea that the NRL ahs the same cultural hold on Sydney and Brisbane as Australian Football has on Melbourne or Adelaide, and to a lesser extent Perth, is fundamentally flawed. The hold on the sporting landscape may be as strong, or nearly so, but its not an integral party of the city in the same way as the AFL has become.

They also have a level; or two depending on whether you place any importance on RL internationals or not; above club competition. Australian Football abandoned Origin a long time ago, and club level is the only elite level.

 

[crisco]

Sydney ppl just dont care as much about sports as melbourne ppl

 

[Aucklander]

Sydney ppl just dont care as much about sports as melbourne ppl

If that was the case, then the Storm would be getting 30,000+ people to a game instead of 13-14.5k

 

[Swanstar]

Because i hate NRL and couldn't care less if it folded, the sooner the AFL establishes a second team in Sydney the better

 

[bruce29]

because nrl's a crap sport to watch live

im not just an afl troll....but i dislike rugby because of its start-stop nature...

not a great game altogether, but on tv at least its tolerable

 

[crisco]

If that was the case, then the Storm would be getting 30,000+ people to a game instead of 13-14.5k

okay then im sorry, your right

but can i make a couple of point of saying;

that melbourne victory get double the amount of ppl to thier games than sydney fc

union tests always sell out

vfl games have higher attendance than nswrl games

the melbourne tigers get roughly the same amount of ppl coming to thier games as the kings, this is despite the facts that a. sydney has a bigger population b. sydney has a bigger venue

 

[walhawk]

Nescri.

Please explain 14K for the two big Heritage Round NRL games in Sydney.

 

[RUNVS]

I just saw some highlights of the Rabbitohs vs Tigers game today and i must say that the SCG looks really weird in a Rugby League configuration.

 

[nescri]

He was comparing the 10 AFL teams in Victoria to the 10 NRL teams in NSW. He wasnt comparing the 10 NRL teams in NSW to the 1 AFL team in NSW.

Bar the first two comments. The rest of the post was about Sydney.

I was responding to this

"Is non attendence of sport a cultural thing in Sydney?
But how would this explain the Swans crowds?"

 

[Professor Knowall]

Yes, we've already discussed this at length (unfortunately I forget on which thread). I won't cover old ground again here, but something else. I'm unsure this is directly relevent here (it may or may not be ...), but anyway, this may still interest many here.

It is an historical fact that Australian Football was the first football code to attract a mass spectator audience, including crowds of 10,000 - 15,000 documented as early as the mid-1860's, and regular crowds of 15,000 - 20,000 in the 1870's. In contrast, the first FA Cup final in 1872 got a mere 2,000, and still only 6,000 in 1880, whilst 34,000 attended South Melb v Geelong at Albert Park Lake in 1886 - then far higher for any football code than anywhere else in the world. This figure wasn't surpassed in England until the 1893 FA Cup final Everton v Wolves, of 45,000. Crowds for any codes in Sydney in this era were very small.

Research is only now just starting undigging evidence that the crowds attending Austalian Football in the 1870's and 1880's had an impact on the rules of both association fooball (abv soccer) and rugby in England, in order to make them more palatable to watch. Up until then, they were both just basic close in, unnappealing scrambles, whereas Australian Football, uniquely with no off-side rules, had opened up its play (helped also by playing on bigger fields than what was available in crowded English cities).

Word of these huge (by the standards back then) crowds attending football games in Melbourne soon got back to the soccer and rugby authorities back in England (i.e it was heavily commented on in the top selling book 'Town Life in Australia' by R.E.N. Twopenny (published in England in 1883). In this popular and influential book, Twopenny, who was also well known as a prominent English rugby player (over 200 games in England), wrote (to an English readership) of the big football crowds in Melbourne, writing that people actually pay to attend, the crowds in Melbourne were 10 times the size of Sydney crowds and that "I feel bound to say that the game is by far the most scientific, the most amusing to both players and onloookers and altogether the best. A fine football match in Melboure is one of the sights of the world...".

This and other accounts of the Australian code of football attracting mass paying specttators made certain authorities in England sit up and take notice. So, far from repeating those old myths that the older code of Australian Football (codified 1859) somehow being started as a form of soccer (not codified until 1863) or rugby (not codified until 1871), the research may well show that the other codes were more influenced by the mass spectator appeal of Australian Football, the only code in the world until the 1880's that had mass spectators attending.

It also shows that the distinction between Melbourne and Sydney in attending football was as clearly evident in the 1870's as it is now.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

Serious question.

We are told that NRL is as popular in Sydney as AFL is in Melbourne - yet the crowds are about 1/3 the size.

Crowds of 14K attended each of the 'Blockbuster 100th year Celebration Heritage Round' matches between arch rivals St George V Canterbury & Parra V Manly. Correct me if I am wrong but these are probably the 4 biggest drawing Sydney RL clubs. (i.e Carlton V Collingwood & Essendon V Richmond).

Is non attendence of sport a cultural thing in Sydney?
But how would this explain the Swans crowds?

Is it cultural to RL? - Because it's 'better on TV'?
Then again, most matches are not on TV.

The fact that the stadiums are smaller is not relevant as they are rarely sold out (the St George V Bulldogs game was at the 80K Olympic stadium).

Support is not dwindling - crowds in Sydney have been roughly the same for 50 years.
But why aren't they growing like they are in other codes and/or other cities?

Is this a worry for the AFL entering a market that does not seem very passionate about attending sport?

AFL is growing everywhere.
NRL is growing in Queensland (and elsewhere), but why not in Sydney?

My family background is from Illawarra and indeed my grandfather was a Kangaroos RL selector and has a RL ground named after him.

I used to follow Parramatta as we are family friends with Mick Cronin.
I went to games in the Storm's first 2 seasons and was in NSW for the 1999 premiership but like many Melbournians the novelty wore off.

I started going again last year and do wish that there was more interest in the game here. There is no FTA coverage before midnight and even the Storm games are only on every few weeks in the early hours.

The reality is that RL in Melbuorne is behind where AR was in Sydney in 1982. Hopefully that will change with the new stadium but I can't forsee regular crowds of 20,000 unless channel 9 start showing games which simply won't happen.

But I love AFL & Hawthorn a millon times better because of the club culture in Victoria. It is magic. Plus it is a much better game to play.

The NRL footy show is better though. But that's about it.

Idiot.

You know all about RL yet you start a thread asking people what the culture is, you are a dead set fukcwit, and that's being kind.

Put the boot into RL all you like, but there is no need to lie, and if you don't know why something is, all you have to do is ask and someone who knows will tell you.

If you lived where you say you did, and if you family was involved in RL like you say they were-are, and if your family members have grounds named after them whilst being a Kangaroo selector living 45 mins away from Sydney, you'd know all these answers.

But you don't, because you have just shown you are full of bullshit.

 

[BigBadBustler]

Idiot.

You know all about RL yet you start a thread asking people what the culture is, you are a dead set fukcwit, and that's being kind.

Put the boot into RL all you like, but there is no need to lie, and if you don't know why something is, all you have to do is ask and someone who knows will tell you.

If you lived where you say you did, and if you family was involved in RL like you say they were-are, and if your family members have grounds named after them whilst being a Kangaroo selector living 45 mins away from Sydney, you'd know all these answers.

But you don't, because you have just shown you are full of bullshit.

Mate, just play the ball, not the man...

 

[walhawk]

Thanks Prof, so it's a Melbourne / Sydney thing.

So you are saying that there just isn't the same hunger / passion for sport in Sydney compared to Melbourne.

If RL is thriving as Nescri tells us, then this also helps explain NRL crowds in Sydney. People love their sport and RL, just not enough to go.

So, inlight of this: -
1) The Swans crowds look even more sensational
2) If Western Sydney pulls crowds of 14K they will be doing really well. Will the AFL be happy with this though?

P.s. How many Canterbury fans do you think were at home yesterday watching the game on Foxtel rather than attending? Surely pay TV would be a minimal 'stay-at-home factor for such clubs.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

Mate, just play the ball, not the man...

He stated what his involvement was, he should know then shouldn't he?

It was a blatant troll and that's all it was.

 

[steviewonder36]

The Swans are the only AFL team in Sydney, and average a crowd of 30k(?)

Same as the Tahs, who average around 20k.

Pretty poor considering these teams represent a whole city, let alone the entire state!
Net crowds for the 9 League teams representing different parts of Sydney surpass both of those codes.

Every match IS on tv btw. Theres been plenty of discussion about the difference between AFL and League on tv. (I suggest you back track through the threads)




And you wonder why this board is trolled !

So why do you get involved pinhead.

Raiders don't get the crowds here in Canberra like they used to, when Meninga etc played, so are Canberra RL fans bandwagonners?

 

[Hass]

Regarding the two 14k crowds this week - Sydney is very fickle when it comes to the weather.

I was at Parramatta Stadium on Friday night and it absolutely bucketed down. Anyone not in the stand got soaked; not just a little wet, I mean absolutely drenched.

The weather was similar all day Saturday.

It doesn't explain poor crowds in other weeks, but the weather definitely dampened the Heritage week celebrations. On a perfect weekend Parramatta Stadium would have sold out and the Dogs-Saints match would have got up to 20-thousand (if Saints were in form it would probably be about 26 or 27 thousand but they are playing like a rabble).

That's another part of the problem. Many fans in Sydney only go when their side is winning. Traditional blockbusters quickly lose their drawing power if the teams are down the bottom of the ladder - it's something the game really needs to address.

 

[ArachniX]

One other thing that needs to be appreciated is that Melbourne football clubs have been around since the beginning of football. The Melbourne and Geelong football clubs are nearly 50 years older than the oldest Rugby League clubs. And all the current Melbourne clubs and the Sydney Swans are the same clubs as they have been since their original formation. Fitzroy is the only club that has 'disappeared' but it still exists as a merged entity of the Brisbane Lions.
There were only 9 clubs in the original NSWRL season in 1908 and only 2 of those clubs exist today, the Rabbitohs and the Roosters. The others have either merged or disappeared altogether or playing at lower levels. Some of the so called big clubs didnt enter the league until later like Manly and Parramatta (1947), the Bulldogs (1935) etc.
As well as the culture difference between the 2 cities, Sydney also had the divided Rugby which meant that spectators were originally divided between the 2 codes as the rule changes that distinquish between the codes didnt occur straight away. Australian rules football was also popular in the early days and if formation of the NSWRL didn't occur, would probably have ended up being Sydney's number 1 sport today. Compared to Melbourne where Australian Rules was the only code and basically no Rugby clubs of either persuasion existed.
Is doesnt take much to see how the club culture ingrained into Melbourne football followers is different to the Sydney culture.
Even the clubs that joined the VFL in 1925 are considerably weaker in supporter numbers than the clubs that have been around since the start of the VFL.

 

[Fender]

As an Eels fans the public transport to get around Sydney when I am down and go to a game is absolutely shocking. Would turn many fans away. If the Eels, Manly game was this arvo in fine weather then it would have been a sell-out easily.

 

[RUNVS]

As an Eels fans the public transport to get around Sydney when I am down and go to a game is absolutely shocking.

I agree completely that Sydney is a very hard city to get around. No matter how many times i go to the SCG i always seem to find new and exciting ways to get lost.

 

[Doctor Jolly]

Really disappointing crowds this week in Sydney for the NRL. This is their heritage round backing up off the "team of the century" announcement.

The fact is, the NRL doesnt have a "go to the game" culture. Whatever way everyones bias tries to spin it, thats the bottom line.

 

[walhawk]

Settle BBB and Eel (did you go to the game?), and stop trying to read between the lines.
I have never lived anywhere besides Melbourne but because of my family background I keep up with RL.
And the fact that my extended family lives on the South Coast does not help me understand why so few people go to NRL games in Sydney. It's hardly the stuff I talk to my 90 year old nanna about when I ring her up at Christmas or on her birthday.
I would have gone to see the Eels match if I were in Sydney on the weekend. Bad weather has never stopped my going to a Hawks match.
What' s wrong with people up there?

In Melbourne most footy fans actually go to the footy every now and then.

And, relative to this board, if it is simply a 'Sydney Thing' (according to Prof Knowall), then maybe the AFL should not be putting a new club there.

But if it's a 'RL thing' (because the club culture is not strong - according to AranchiX), then the AFL should definitely put a new team there.

 

[nescri]

But if it's a 'RL thing' (because the club culture is not strong - according to AranchiX), then the AFL should definitely put a new team there.

How would the new W.Sydney AFL team have the advantage over RL in Sydney then?

You missed AranchiX's point. It's a good post, you should re-read it.