Why Lions fans have had enough (From 5/5/2015 Non NSW and QLD club supporters will be carded)

[Schache It Off]

Don't forget how this is coming off a high 2014 off season...How ****ing quick do we fall FML seriously

 

[patfullfankezz]

I'm just gobsmacked and sad and why, why, WHY????

2 years ago we were on the up and up. Now we're lower than the laughing stock of the league - we're completely irrelevant.

It hurts. What HAPPENED?

 

[HowYouDoin]

The quality of players leaving this club this year far surpasses the go home 5.

Anyone who can even defend the notion that our club isn't a dismay are obviously blind to their surroundings.

 

[Jman78]

Maybe this will become a massive problem, maybe it wont.... really depends on who we get in. Not going to worry now, I'm looking at it as a opportunity for the club.

 

[Last of the Roys]

You can try to be as positive as you like, but it is hard not to see the Club in a massive hole. Perhaps those who don't see the problem with the cumulative impact of the likes of Redden and Adcock leaving (on top of others going) had already resigned themselves to us being down the bottom for the next few years.

Or perhaps they are hoping for a Bulldogs style miracle resurrection.

However you look at it, the exodus from the Lions over the last 2 years has been massive. Assuming Adcock, Leuenberger and Redden all leave (and Golby is delisted), from the end of the 2013 season to the start of next season we will have only 15 players left from a senior list of 40 players.

The 25 players who have gone are:

1. Black - 322 games - retired at 34 - like Brown a gigantic loss that is hard to cover.
2. Brown - 256 games - retired at 32 - his loss left a huge hole. While we knew that would be the case years in advance, we still couldn't avoid given the shambles we have been in.
3. McGrath - 214 games - retired - a really under-rated loss; his experience helped us get over the line in a number of games prior to his retirement.
4. Maguire - 170 games - retired at 31 - was decent for us for a while.
5. Moloney - 166 games - retired at 30 - his body just didn't last given he was forced to retire at only 30.
6. Staker - 160 games - retired at 31 - injuries killed any chance he had in playing a key role in our side.
7. Patfull - 182 games (now 198) - requested trade to GWS - just an absolute gigantic loss of a dual best and fairest key back that got us over the line on numerous occasions with his experience. We really should have done everything we could to keep him.
8. Adcock - 205 games - no longer wanted - seems ridiculous to me when we are bleeding experience.
9. Leuenberger - 108 games - wants to play elsewhere - IMO we are letting him go far too easily.
10. Redden - 129 games - may request to be traded - just insane that we could lose Redden on top of everyone else. It is a symptom of a Club that has long been in deep trouble unfortunately. While others don't seem too phased by it, Redden is a heart and soul player that helped set the intensity of this Club for many years (even if he was below par this year).
11. Raines - 123 games - delisted / played 6 games for Gold Coast and now retired at 29 - tried hard and was a good tagger, although his skills let him down (although you could say the same thing about the skills of most Brisbane players).
12. Crisp - 18 games (now 39) - traded to Collingwood - you could see his talent coming through towards the end at the Lions. In retrospect we didn't give him enough opportunities and should have done a lot more to keep him (given rumours he wanted to leave anyway regardless of the Beams trade).
13. Yeo - 27 games (now 60) - forced trade to Eagles - clearly the biggest loss out of the Go Home 5 and really disappointing given the opportunities we gave him.
14. Polec - 16 games (now 45) - forced trade to Port - another big loss. I don't think we gave him enough opportunities, although no doubt he had some attitude problems as well.
15. Docherty - 13 games (now 48) - forced trade to Carlton - a bigger loss than what most Lions supporters seem to admit to. Will never be a star, but you need good honest players to make up any decent side.
16. Longer - 9 games (now 43) - forced trade to the Saints - far more understanding of Longer wanting to get more opportunities elsewhere. Again probably never going to be a star, but would have been handy to have on our list.
17. Karnezis - 21 games (now 25) - forced trade to the Pies - Patty K could have been a star, he absolutely had all of the talent in the world. That now seems to have been wasted. Obviously he must have attitude problems, but I still can't help but feel what might have been had we given him more opportunities in his final year with us when he was killing it in the reserves.
18. Polkinghorne - 94 games - delisted - played some OK games, just not good enough in the end.
19. Golby - 56 games - likely to be delisted - seemed like he was going to make it, but has really struggled since Leppa came in.
20. Banfield - 53 games - delisted - seems like another wasted opportunity like Rhan Hooper. Really seemed like he was going to make it after his first two years.
21. Cornelius - 25 games - delisted - just not good enough to play at AFL level unfortunately.
22. Lisle - 23 games - delisted - while he showed some glimpses that he might be able to make it, in the end he was just not up to AFL standard.
23. McKeever - 22 games - delisted - worth the shot, but didn't end up being good enough.
24. O'Brien - 17 games - delisted - at times he looked like he had good potential, but apparently didn't have the right attitude to make it.
25. Weardon - 0 games - delisted - didn't get an opportunity, but didn't look up to it from the little that I saw of him

Those that will be left from 2013 are: Harwood; Green; Bewick (hopefully); Rich; Hanley; Martin; Zork; Claye Beams; Merrett; Paparone; Mayes; Close; Lester; Rockliff; and Clarke.

Of course on top of all of that Aish (32 games) coming since 2013 and now likely to go is a huge blow. McGuane (112 games) could well depart due to injuries. You would have to wonder if Trent West (66 games) and Paine (12 games) might be delisted as well. That could mean close to 30 senior list departures in just over 2 calendar years.

Obviously in place of all of the above we have got: Dayne Beams - who is a star; Robinson - who has been great this year; and Christensen - who has been pretty good as well; along with a host of young players. But it is just nowhere near enough to cover what we have lost / are likely to lose.

 

[Schache It Off]

Just makes our casse for a PP stronger.

 

[ColdWarWarrior]

1. Polkinghorne - 94 games - delisted - played some OK games, just not good enough in the end.
2. Golby - 56 games - likely to be delisted - seemed like he was going to make it, but has really struggled since Leppa came in.
3. Banfield - 53 games - delisted - seems like another wasted opportunity like Rhan Hooper. Really seemed like he was going to make it after his first two years.
4. Cornelius - 25 games - delisted - just not good enough to play at AFL level unfortunately.
5. Lisle - 23 games - delisted - while he showed some glimpses that he might be able to make it, in the end he was just not up to AFL standard.
6. McKeever - 22 games - delisted - worth the shot, but didn't end up being good enough.
7. O'Brien - 17 games - delisted - at times he looked like he had good potential, but apparently didn't have the right attitude to make it.
8. Weardon - 0 games - delisted - didn't get an opportunity, but didn't look up to it from the little that I saw of him

Looking at the bottom of the list here you can see we have recruited some duds along the way and worst still invested a significant amount of time and resources into them, ie Cornelius a 5 year NEAFL player, Banfield tried hard but couldn't make an impact, likewise Lisle, and then Polkinghorne a C grader but a favourite of Voss. We hung onto these guys too long.

Going back further in the draft it is a story of failure, here are some outright duds 1 and 2 game players, Llane Spanderman , Leigh Ryswyk Chris Schmidt, Stephan Wrigley, Will Hamill, Josh Dyson, Daniel Dzufer, Scott Clouston etc etc.

 

[CarterS]

The quality of players leaving this club this year far surpasses the go home 5.

Anyone who can even defend the notion that our club isn't a dismay are obviously blind to their surroundings.

They are all leaving for very different reasons. Aish was always going to go, Berger is essentially in a situation where he can be a #1 at another club and the club don't seem to mind because we will get decent compensation, Redden wants to go because of relationship issues with the coach (according to today's paper), and there's still a decent chance he will stay. To me this shows there is nothing like the systemic problem we apparently had with the GH5.

 

[Last of the Roys]

With the win against the Bulldogs we obviously avoided our second wooden spoon as the Brisbane Lions. Although 17th is actually our lowest ever finish in four years of the 18 team competition (and 5 years since Gold Coast came in).

In terms of wins, 4 wins and 18 losses equals our record in 2011, but is worse than our wooden spoon year in 1998 when we had 5 wins, 1 draw and 16 losses. Having a look at our combined history of the Bears and Fitzroy, we have actually had less wins in a season on 9 occasions.

- Fitzroy in 1996 went 1 win and 21 losses
- Fitzroy in 1995 went 2 wins and 20 losses
- Bears in 1991 went 3 wins and 19 losses
- Fitzroy in 1966 went 1 win and 17 losses
- Fitzroy in 1964 went 0 wins and 18 losses
- Fitzroy in 1963 went 1 win and 17 losses
- Fitzroy in 1936 went 2 wins and 16 losses
- Fitzroy in 1932 went 3 wins and 15 losses
- Fitzroy in 1929 went 3 wins and 15 losses

Obviously those last six were under an 18 round season. Also I didn't include 1916 when in a 12 round 4 team season (due to World War 1) Fitzroy went 2 wins, 1 draw and 9 losses and then won all 3 finals to go from last to Premiers in the same year.

In terms of our percentage, our final percentage in 2015 was 67.52%. This is our worst result as the Brisbane Lions with the next worst 69.26% in 2014. In contrast in 2011 we finished with 80.98% despite only winning 4 games; while in 1998 we finished with 75.83%.

In relation to our combined history, our percentage is the 8th worst on record:

- Fitzroy 1996 (1 win and 21 losses) = 49.47%
- Fitzroy 1995 (2 wins and 20 losses) = 58.17%
- Bears 1992 (4 wins, 1 draw and 17 losses) = 64.55%
- Fitzroy 1991 (4 wins, 18 losses) = 66.29%
- Fitzroy 1966 (1 win, 17 losses) = 53.83%
- Fitzroy 1964 (0 wins, 18 losses) = 59.73%
- Fitzroy 1963 (1 win, 17 losses) = 57.46%

 

[Last of the Roys]

By the way, I for one was very happy we beat the Bulldogs on the weekend. I don't think draft picks are as important as most footy supporters (and a number of footy clubs) believe.

Carlton has now finished last for the fourth time in 13 years. All the draft picks in the world can't help you if your club is not fundamentally headed in the right the direction. You couldn't accuse Melbourne of benefitting from their past tanking either.

Not unlike 1998 (although no doubt with a much less developed list), I think the win in the final round was exactly the kind of thing we needed. It gives the players, coaches, and supporters the hope that we can play good / winning football (regardless of who the opposition put out on the park). It was crucial given the state of crisis that had come over the Club.

Now all of the sudden everything is heading in the right direction again.
- Swann has the finances under some sort of control and crucially seems to have the full support of the AFL. This needs to turn into more funding for our footy department and training facilities, but I am pretty hopeful.
- Leigh has been through it all in footy and is a rock that is needed in bad times. He knows the Club can only be successful again if everyone is heading in the same direction.
- Leppa has surely learned some invaluable lessons that will help him be a much better coach on and off the field. His most beneficial attribute is unflinching determination to rebuild the Club in the long term, regardless of what that means for the short term.
[- Edit - not to mention Rocky as our captain. Could you ask for four better more competitive football personalities that Leigh, Swann, Leppa and Rocky to lead the Club?]
- The Lamberts have come back and have a crucial role to play to help us keep our list together. Obviously the issue over interstate player retention isn't as simple as that and we still need a salary cap allowance, but it is a good step forward.
- We have made a number of other key changes to our footy department. I am not sure if they will be as good, but we have to trust Swann and Leighs' judgement.
- The Academy players are going to help overcome the go-home factor, and we have some good players coming. Pity we don't get as big as benefit as Sydney / Collingwood did last year.

Finally while I think we absolutely need to keep players that are good footballers and good leadership examples to have around the Club (which is why I think we should keep Adcock and Redden), if some players don't want to be professional / put in the effort required / or do the hard yards to bring a team up from the bottom - then they can get ****ed as far as I am concerned. The Brisbane Lions is no place for FIGJAM draftees who want the exposure of the Melbourne media football mafia; or anyone else that wants an easy ride.

It is time to build a winning culture again at the Lions. That started on Saturday - let's hope one day we remember it like we do the last game of 1998.

 

[frdkng]

I also blame it on list management in particular to our forward line as to why we are constantly struggling. And this is when Brown was playing in his last 5 years. I think this posed a bit of a hindrance as we had no one else to fill in his shoes when he retired. He was a main player in attack but we should have development some other key forwards in that time. Its called planning for the future. Something we couldn't do.

 

[Jman78]

I also blame it on list management in particular to our forward line as to why we are constantly struggling. And this is when Brown was playing in his last 5 years. I think this posed a bit of a hindrance as we had no one else to fill in his shoes when he retired. He was a main player in attack but we should have development some other key forwards in that time. Its called planning for the future. Something we couldn't do.

It is possibly the hardest thing to do though to find competent players for that role. It is seriously difficult and you need some luck.

 

[Caiphus]

Spaanderman and Clark and even arguably Brennan were recruited with that in mind. Not to mention Henderson. We done ****ed up, but at least we did try.

 

[Bucking Beads]

Our drafting after our premiership years was just utterly pathetic. Hardly nailed a first or 2nd round pick at all.

 

[Last of the Roys]

Some more stats that show how far we have fallen - this time attendances.

Our average home crowd in 2015 was 18810. That is the second lowest figure for the Brisbane Lions since the merger. The only time we have averaged less than that was in 1998 when the Gabba was being redeveloped when we averaged 16,674.

The only other two times we have averaged less than 20,000 for our home crowds was last year with 19,743 and 1997 (before the Gabba was redeveloped) with 19,550.

http://afltables.com/afl/crowds/brisbanel.html

 

[Schache It Off]

Disgusting crowds

 

[Albi_Mangler]

Pretty dreadful figures there. A very large decrease in full memberships no doubt.

In comparison that is similar to the Roars last 2 seasons avg but they have significantly lower number of away fans attending and host some internationals.

Add it to the priority pick case. Pivotal period for the club. Simply must turn it around soon.

 

[PattyKwasagun]

Pretty dreadful figures there. A very large decrease in full memberships no doubt.

In comparison that is similar to the Roars last 2 seasons avg but they have significantly lower number of away fans attending and host some internationals.

Add it to the priority pick case. Pivotal period for the club. Simply must turn it around soon.

I think it's comparable with the Roar a few years ago when they hit a peak crowd average, rather than their usual.

Last season they averaged 11, 660 at home games - so while our situation is bad, it's not quite there yet.

The saddest part of the low average is the fact that the Collingwood match in Round 1 was a record crowd to memory. Without it boosting the figures, they'd look appalling.

 

[ColdWarWarrior]

Can't see the lions getting the 25400 members they got this year renewing for next year, there was a lot of optimism coming into this season which boosted numbers. Now with so much pessimism around people won't be so enthusiastic in signing up.

 

[Skoob]

Can't see the lions getting the 25400 members they got this year renewing for next year, there was a lot of optimism coming into this season which boosted numbers. Now with so much pessimism around people won't be so enthusiastic in signing up.

Depending on how we go in the off, (trading & drafting) and on the injury front early next year, there could be plenty of hope to sell again. Maybe not results, but we could have a very exciting young group next year. It's all in the marketing and what we may have to offer.

 

[Elixuh]

I forget the source but saw today that Swann said something along the lines of...'and we'll likely be even younger next year'...gets very disheartening as a supporter when you have seemingly heard that line year after year since 2011.

 

[Skoob]

I forget the source but saw today that Swann said something along the lines of...'and we'll likely be even younger next year'...gets very disheartening as a supporter when you have seemingly to heard that line year after year since 2011.

I think though, despite what we've seen in "Experience Watch", getting younger needn't mean we can't significantly improve. Without meaning any disrespect and acknowledging other benefits they have/do provide, if you consider over the last couple of years we have lost Moloney, Brown, McGrath and this year Adcock, McGuane, Staker and MacGuire, in terms of on-field performance, they are all very much replaceable by young blokes who will provide more.

Now, before anyone leaps to pointing out how epic some of those guys were, I mean replaceable in terms of what they have provided onfield in the last 24 months. Most of those guys hardly played, so to replace them on the list with younger blokes, doesn't mean our fielded team is set to get a whole lot younger next year. In fact, replacing some of the blokes with old man injuries might just give us some better depth.

 

[POBT]

I think though, despite what we've seen in "Experience Watch", getting younger needn't mean we can't significantly improve. Without meaning any disrespect and acknowledging other benefits they have/do provide, if you consider over the last couple of years we have lost Moloney, Brown, McGrath and this year Adcock, McGuane, Staker and MacGuire, in terms of on-field performance, they are all very much replaceable by young blokes who will provide more.

Now, before anyone leaps to pointing out how epic some of those guys were, I mean replaceable in terms of what they have provided onfield in the last 24 months. Most of those guys hardly played, so to replace them on the list with younger blokes, doesn't mean our fielded team is set to get a whole lot younger next year. In fact, replacing some of the blokes with old man injuries might just give us some better depth.

I agree.

The age thing doesn't really worry me going forward. We had little reliance on our older players in 2015. Only Adcock was a regular and even then, he was not a driving force for the side.

I tend to think our best 22/25 will be a slightly older group. There won't be a huge amount of scope for 1st year players to force their way in. Maybe Schache if a Freeman/Close led forward line struggles. Maybe Keays if he hits the ground running.

Otherwise, we'll have a side which is likely to be dominated by the class of the 2008 and 2013 drafts. At a guess, I reckon those two groups will make up close to half our best side. They'll be between 21 and 26 years old. Given we had largely the same core two years ago, that says to me we are moving forward in terms of list maturity.

If we then consider the added experience those guys have gained, compared to many players of the same age, we're talking about a group that has more experience than their age suggests.

None of this means we'll be a better side for it - there's a lot more to success than just ageing and getting experience. But the age issue is becoming less problematic as time goes on.

 

[neg99]

I agree.

The age thing doesn't really worry me going forward. We had little reliance on our older players in 2015. Only Adcock was a regular and even then, he was not a driving force for the side.

I tend to think our best 22/25 will be a slightly older group. There won't be a huge amount of scope for 1st year players to force their way in. Maybe Schache if a Freeman/Close led forward line struggles. Maybe Keays if he hits the ground running.

Otherwise, we'll have a side which is likely to be dominated by the class of the 2008 and 2013 drafts. At a guess, I reckon those two groups will make up close to half our best side. They'll be between 21 and 26 years old. Given we had largely the same core two years ago, that says to me we are moving forward in terms of list maturity.

If we then consider the added experience those guys have gained, compared to many players of the same age, we're talking about a group that has more experience than their age suggests.

None of this means we'll be a better side for it - there's a lot more to success than just ageing and getting experience. But the age issue is becoming less problematic as time goes on.

Yeah especially when you consider how long we coasted with the likes of Polks, Sheldon etc. they were all "experienced" but clearly below AFL level. I'd take younger, AFL calibre players over older list cloggers any day.

There's clearly a link between experience and success but it has to be quality experience.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Davemonkey]

To be fair, Polks, Sheldon et al where elite list cloggers.