Current Wiembilla Shootings * Coronial Inquiry

[Kurve]

While the discussion of motives can't be avoided, please remember this isn't the place to promote support for conspiracy theories. Thanks.

 

[Lady O]

The Trains were identified as subscribing to a fundy religious belief system known as premillennialism. Interestingly, the Catholic Church's position is that premillennialism can't be taught safely.

Premillennialists focus a lot on Christ's return, where all the elect will be raised to a glorious state.

How do they get from that to shooting cops?

 

[CD Xbow]

And passionate. The "if god wants me to die, I'll die" business they were sprouting and the "evil scientists" trying to kill everyone with their poison, was a big surprise to me. Those two things seem to be contradictory. Anyway, apparently there is no IQ test to get into a church.

'The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.'

From 'The Second Coming', by that old Irish geezer, W. B. Yeats. A work that seems just as relevant today as in 1920.

 

[Kurve]

How do they get from that to shooting cops?

It might seem they were convinced it was the end of days. They believed the government was attempting to poison them with vaccines under the guise of a fabricated COVID crisis, and that the police, along with anyone who didn't share their ideological views, were demons. They thought that by killing the demons and sacrificing themselves, they would be rewarded

 

[kane249]

Lady O have a listen to this Podcast, it's got an audio excerpt of one of Gareth and one of Stacey's Youtube videos. Those got pulled pretty quickly after the shooting (this isn't the one they recorded after the shooting)

It's chilling listening to how unhinged they were.

 

[Kurve]

Through their last exchange with Don in Arizona, there was this which I wondered at the time indicated they were preparing to die for their beliefs.

"We'll see you when we get home," Stacey said.
"We will see you at home, Don," Gareth said.

Don from Arizona ultimately did not match the Trains in their willingness to die in a shootout with the cops.

 

[Royces Hart]

Don from Arizona ultimately did not match the Trains in their willingness to die in a shootout with the cops

Typical

 

[Kurve]

The bodycam footage is actually really scary, the Trains were hunting him down and even when he managed to get out from behind the tree he was using as cover and to his vehicle in a desperate sprint, they kept shooting at his vehicle.

Constable Randall Kirk's camera captured his desperate dash across a field under heavy gunfire to a police car, as gunmen closed in on his hiding spot.

Officer's body worn footage shows moment he ran as shots fired at Wieambilla

Footage from Constable Randall Kirk's body worn camera shows him hiding behind a tree and running to the police car to escape the property at Wieambilla.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Kurve]

More bodycam footage here which shows the police entering the property. Kirk, who survived after being shot in the hip, saw one of them execute Rachel McCrow then steal her vest and gun.

9News - Latest news and headlines from Australia and the world

Latest news and headlines from Australia and the world

www.9news.com.au

 

[Lady O]

More bodycam footage here which shows the police entering the property. Kirk, who survived after being shot in the hip, saw one of them execute Rachel McCrow then steal her vest and gun.

9News - Latest news and headlines from Australia and the world

Latest news and headlines from Australia and the world

www.9news.com.au

That isn't Christians, as I understand them.

 

[Kurve]

That isn't Christians, as I understand them.

Or school teachers.

 

[Sir_Loin]

That isn't Christians, as I understand them.

Maybe you missed the Spanish Inquisition or any other conquest on the name of a Christian god.

Christians can’t claim the moral high ground on anything given the past. Violence is always justified in pursuit of their belief.

 

[kane249]

So what they have determined from the body cams and forensics

-Nathaniel killed Matthew Arnold
-Nathaniel and Gareth both shot Rachel McCrow before Gareth executed her at close range
-Stacey wasn't there for that part

-Not sure which of the brothers killed Alan Dare

-Stacey did shoot at the cops in the siege and wasn't just sitting idly by
-Nathaniel was the last one to be killed

Answers some of the earlier theories and the neighbours theory that it was all Nathaniel doing the killing

 

[kane249]

 

[Kurve]

So what they have determined from the body cams and forensics

-Nathaniel killed Matthew Arnold
-Nathaniel and Gareth both shot Rachel McCrow before Gareth executed her at close range
-Stacey wasn't there for that part

-Not sure which of the brothers killed Alan Dare

-Stacey did shoot at the cops in the siege and wasn't just sitting idly by
-Nathaniel was the last one to be killed

Answers some of the earlier theories and the neighbours theory that it was all Nathaniel doing the killing

That clears some confusion up a bit, I heard on a video earlier than Stacey was involved in the initial shootings but I didn't think that was right. All other reports have her as in the house until she burst out the back door firing.

 

[kane249]

That clears some confusion up a bit, I heard on a video earlier than Stacey was involved in the initial shootings but I didn't think that was right. All other reports have her as in the house until she burst out the back door firing.

Yes should also clears up a couple of earlier theories from this thread as well

From the police recording from the chopper shown on ACA last night it doesn’t sound like the woman was armed but hiding at the back door, but was shot dead in cold blood, like the police were earlier, so they could get to the other two assailants.

I guess this is just general police practice and nothing will come of it?

Stacey was firing at the police from the audio released from PolAir, not 'shot dead in cold blood'

I’m not over the entire situation, but do we have evidence that Nathanial was alive when the police first arrived?

He was alive and on the body cam footage from the first officers to attend the property, and is confirmed as killing at least Matthew Arnold

 

[SmAshmoto]

I thought about it at the time and still think it now.

God that must have been satisfying for the Special Ops cops to fill these shit stains with lead after they'd just murdered two innocent officers.

Probably why I'm not a cop haha

 

[CredibleSauce]

I thought about it at the time and still think it now.

God that must have been satisfying for the Special Ops cops to fill these shit stains with lead after they'd just murdered two innocent officers.

Probably why I'm not a cop haha

I bloody well hope it felt good to get rid of them too (however fleetingly).

I feel a bit uneasy about the forensic psychologists view that they were suffering from a psychiatric condition.

“Gareth, who had a delusional disorder was the primary. That is the person who suffered a genuine primary psychotic illness, while Stacey and Nathaniel were secondaries,” O’Gorman said Dr Aboud will say. Previous reporting had painted a picture of Gareth as a domineering force over both Nathaniel and Stacey. Dr Aboud’s opinion is that Gareth suffered from a genuine psychiatric condition.

I’m not a psychologist (clearly lol) but there is pretty consistent evidence that Gareth was antisocial and abusive (eg. "He [Gareth] was dragging her [Stacey] by the hair up the stairs into her house. It's a high house and he was just dragging.”)

If I’m being generous I’d be more inclined to believe that maybe Stacey went along with Gareth’s delusions almost as a fawn response/defence mechanism - it seems like he wouldn’t have taken being challenged particularly well - and ultimately got sucked into really believing it (trying really hard not to victim blame here since she clearly experienced domestic abuse, hard not to cast judgement though given she went on to support her POS husband in executing two young officers and so on). Sounds like she went pretty hard on the extreme fundy beliefs and so on earlier though (how good are Christian upbringings) so I wouldn’t be surprised if she was the kind of person to jump on the cooker shit bandwagon regardless.

Again, being generous, I could probably be convinced by the supposition that Nathaniel suffered brain damage from his heart attack. It seems like he was functioning as a pretty useful member of society before that, so the idea that his actions afterwards were a result of being more easily led by his domineering brother at that stage tracks. I’d want to know the extent of that brain damage and how severely it can really affect one’s personality before absolving him of any real responsibility though. At this stage I still believe he’s a POS who intended to kill four young officers that day and seemed to enjoy it.

I have very, very little inclination to believe Gareth was suffering a psychiatric disorder, unless narcissism and sociopathy counts.
I think he’s a real sick f***.
I think he liked replacing his brother as Stacey’s husband and probably did it intentionally to inflict as much pain as he could.
I think he liked hurting people and animals from the start and I think he would have jumped on any bandwagon that justified it.
The only discomfort I have about his death is that he probably wouldn’t have been in more pain or fear than officer McCrow, and I just wish he’d suffered longer. That’s all.

 

[CD Xbow]

I bloody well hope it felt good to get rid of them too (however fleetingly).

I feel a bit uneasy about the forensic psychologists view that they were suffering from a psychiatric condition.

“Gareth, who had a delusional disorder was the primary. That is the person who suffered a genuine primary psychotic illness, while Stacey and Nathaniel were secondaries,” O’Gorman said Dr Aboud will say. Previous reporting had painted a picture of Gareth as a domineering force over both Nathaniel and Stacey. Dr Aboud’s opinion is that Gareth suffered from a genuine psychiatric condition.

I’m not a psychologist (clearly lol) but there is pretty consistent evidence that Gareth was antisocial and abusive (eg. "He [Gareth] was dragging her [Stacey] by the hair up the stairs into her house. It's a high house and he was just dragging.”)

If I’m being generous I’d be more inclined to believe that maybe Stacey went along with Gareth’s delusions almost as a fawn response/defence mechanism - it seems like he wouldn’t have taken being challenged particularly well - and ultimately got sucked into really believing it (trying really hard not to victim blame here since she clearly experienced domestic abuse, hard not to cast judgement though given she went on to support her POS husband in executing two young officers and so on). Sounds like she went pretty hard on the extreme fundy beliefs and so on earlier though (how good are Christian upbringings) so I wouldn’t be surprised if she was the kind of person to jump on the cooker shit bandwagon regardless.

Again, being generous, I could probably be convinced by the supposition that Nathaniel suffered brain damage from his heart attack. It seems like he was functioning as a pretty useful member of society before that, so the idea that his actions afterwards were a result of being more easily led by his domineering brother at that stage tracks. I’d want to know the extent of that brain damage and how severely it can really affect one’s personality before absolving him of any real responsibility though. At this stage I still believe he’s a POS who intended to kill four young officers that day and seemed to enjoy it.

I have very, very little inclination to believe Gareth was suffering a psychiatric disorder, unless narcissism and sociopathy counts.
I think he’s a real sick f***.
I think he liked replacing his brother as Stacey’s husband and probably did it intentionally to inflict as much pain as he could.
I think he liked hurting people and animals from the start and I think he would have jumped on any bandwagon that justified it.
The only discomfort I have about his death is that he probably wouldn’t have been in more pain or fear than officer McCrow, and I just wish he’d suffered longer. That’s all.

I think Gareth's actions confirm he's a sociopath. There may be other psychopathology as well, but we can't know for sure. He's clearly the leader. Folie a duex is a real thing. It usually only happens in folks who are socially isolated and under significant stress, this describes the Trains to a tee.

Heart attack is a meaningless term. It sounds like Nathaniel may have had a cardiac arrest, if he did he certainly could have suffered brain damage, if he simply have a acute myocardial infarction (and no arrest) then it's much less likely but not impossible. You can form then throw off a bit clot from the immobile wall of the heart.

 

[kane249]

Some more information on the 000 call Kerry made, and what was told to her.

Also how they did the extraction of Keely

 

[Fifty n Closing]

Is there any further info or thoughts as to why there was no shots fired at the extraction team when recovering Rachel and Matthew?

 

[kane249]

Is there any further info or thoughts as to why there was no shots fired at the extraction team when recovering Rachel and Matthew?

Possible theories
-Going through the stuff they had just looted from the cop car / dead officers
-Out doing prep on the property for the upcoming siege they knew was coming.

Both of those would require all of them to not be monitoring the cameras/motion detectors which does seem weird.

The initial officers made themselves known by honking their horns to let the Trains know they were there, before eventually jumping the fence to go on to the property to do the welfare check. Maybe that was the key difference.

The extraction team made it a point to go in on foot though and park their vehicles well away from the main gate so as not to be seen. After getting Keely out they then used Alan Dares car to break the gage and provide cover to get the 2 bodies out. Again maybe it was just lack of noise by not honking and letting them know they were there that maybe was the deciding factor. They were just stealth enough.

 

[kane249]

How SERT took them down and has a timeline as well

 

[kane249]

A psychiatrist breaks down the mental state of the 3, some interesting insight

 

[SmAshmoto]

In hearing the dynamic between the three and that Gareth was a sociopath, I 100% agree. Look at the situation with the marriage. Gareth came to stay with Nathaniel and Stacey, who were married with 2 kids. Then Gareth just doesn't leave and one day just takes Stacey as his own. She just goes along with it, and so does Nathaniel. Just accepts it. No remorse, no guilt on Gareth's part, nothing.

It also seems that their isolated religious existence may have stemmed all the way back to their childhood. Their father, the Baptist minister, ended up breaking away and founded a new style of church that had more abstract teachings. A lot of their parishioners left because of this change and didn't like the way things were heading, including Stacey's family. Stacey however stayed. It's said on the Podcast that this could be a contributing factor in the falling out between Gareth, Nathaniel and the rest of the family sometime around 1999.