Will ASADA/WADA appeal? - UPDATE: ASADA will not appeal - WADA has appealed

[Kaiser Powser]

That is why I feel it will be WADA that appeals and not ASADA.

If they appeal at all

That would at least take the spot light off McDevitt and ASADA. But surely it is ASADA's jurisdiction to handle these matters?

 

[NoAFLinmycomp]

Armed with this, I have no doubt that this will go to CAS. The main sticking point, to which the tribunal head was constantly raising, was the compelling of witnesses to attend.

He expressed it to such an extent it was referenced a fair bit in the court low down in the age.

So you'd think, if CAS has the power to compel a witness to attend, then I think Alevi and Charters have a date at an undefined time.

Unless some key people are able to embark on some extended overseas holidays, in the near future.

 

[BusterBob]

The Tribunal's delay in handing down its thoughts on Danks, is eating into the appeal period.

 

[peppy la pew]

It's more real than any evidence ASADA had of TB4 being anywhere near EFC or it's players.

Thank goodness, you had me going there for a minute.

I never did believe Dank when he admitted using TB4 for its immunosuppression qualities, I think B & M made that up too.

 

[morgoth]

Hird wasted his own money with a hopeless appeal.

McDevitt will be wasting our money on a hopeless appeal. See the difference there.

Unless they miraculously come up with new evidence in 21 days, they would be very reckless to appeal. They are already under heat for wasting time and money proceeding with this against better judgement, taking it any further and losing would almost certainly see heads role, one would imagine.

Will be WADA, they cannot allow a global precedent for cheating to be set.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

What about the bottle with the sticker that Essendon produced, I thought that proved it was Thymomodulin and not TB4

You mean IT ISN'T REAL

Forget about the bottle. It doesn't mean anything.

 

[Armchair Critic]

Well the tribunal seemed to agree.

No , they didn't. The Thymomodulin defense was not even used

 

[peppy la pew]

That would at least take the spot light off McDevitt and ASADA. But surely it is ASADA's jurisdiction to handle these matters?

ASADA have blown their chance, it's time to move up the chain of command to WADA.

It all depends how hurt WADA are globally. We sometimes forget the sporting world is watching this case

 

[Jobe Watson]

Yeah, sack the guy thats doing his best to try and police a clean sporting landscape with scumbags like Essendon undermining the very notion of fair competiion.

What a moron that tweeter is.

Lol.

Essendon are clean.

Fact is McDevitt had a mare on this one. I don't think he should be sacked yet but he's done a dreadful job with this case. Had the chance to drop it when he took power and the advisers warned that the case wasn't that strong but his bravado and arrogance prevailed, leading to a humiliating defeat.

 

[nineteen eighty]

Hey gang!

Just come off shift.. life of a oil and gas worker...

So, what did I miss?

You don't have time to concern yourself with other matters...too busy counting your dollars.

 

[Kaiser Powser]

Thank goodness, you had me going there for a minute.

I never did believe Dank when he admitted using TB4 for its immunosuppression qualities, I think B & M made that up too.

I doubt even ASADA would have submitted that faux pas as evidence. Would be laughed out of court if that was all they had.

 

[Kaiser Powser]

No , they didn't. The Thymomodulin defense was not even used

I meant in relation to lack of evidence of TB4 use.

 

[Broken_Chairs]

Anyone subject to Australian Law can be subpoenaed with permission of the CAS.

So, if the CAS say they need them, the NSW Supreme Court will grant a subpoena.

They can subpoena you!

excellent news

really don't understand why going straight to CAS isn't on the cards.

 

[peppy la pew]

Lol.

Essendon are clean.
.

Yep lets hope all those drugs they took have been flushed from their system by now.

 

[peppy la pew]

I doubt even ASADA would have submitted that faux pas as evidence. Would be laughed out of court if that was all they had.

Really, I read that interview and thought it was an important link in the chain of circumstantial evidence.

Who knows what the ex footy players and AFL tribunal chairman thought though, it's hard to second guess once the fix is in.

 

[mxett]

Is the Essendon position that Dank was in charge of the needle program and whatever was administered is only known to him? That they have been hijacked by a criminal and it's all on Dank?

That the nature of a joint investigation means they couldn't sue any leaking person embarrassing them in public?

Essendon's position? It appears to be ASADA's position according to McD

 

[Proper Gander]

Lol.

Essendon are clean.

Fact is McDevitt had a mare on this one. I don't think he should be sacked yet but he's done a dreadful job with this case. Had the chance to drop it when he took power and the advisers warned that the case wasn't that strong but his bravado and arrogance prevailed, leading to a humiliating defeat.

Maybe. I don't think ASADA will appeal, and I think the slightly macho commentary from him is to serve a different purpose:

a) to afford something of an 'honourable defeat' to the process - a sort of okay we lost, but we were gutsy and fighting a real issue (hence more comments about record keeping, EFC's behaviour etc)

b) because the Fed Govt are getting to the nitty gritty of budget deliberations. I.E he's got his begging bowl out - the narrative will be turned away from how much public money was spent to something about investigations being compromised by insufficient agency resourcing.

The guy is a CEO after all.

The depressing part of this theory is that the 34 players will get used as a political tool, and for me I think it is plenty time to get on with 2015 footy season and let the issue go.

I don't know whether to tip EFC or Sydney this weekend. One one hand, players will be on a high, on the other it's Sydney in Sydney. What do you think?

 

[thegerman]

Maybe. I don't think ASADA will appeal, and I think the slightly macho commentary from him is to serve a different purpose:

a) to afford something of an 'honourable defeat' to the process - a sort of okay we lost, but we were gutsy and fighting a real issue (hence more comments about record keeping, EFC's behaviour etc)

b) because the Fed Govt are getting to the nitty gritty of budget deliberations. I.E he's got his begging bowl out - the narrative will be turned away from how much public money was spent to something about investigations being compromised by insufficient agency resourcing.

The guy is a CEO after all.

The depressing part of this theory is that the 34 players will get used as a political tool, and for me I think it is plenty time to get on with 2015 footy season and let the issue go.

I don't know whether to tip EFC or Sydney this weekend. One one hand, players will be on a high, on the other it's Sydney in Sydney. What do you think?

SO being used as a political tool outweighs a guinea pig?

 

[Jimthegreat]

Hird wasted his own money with a hopeless appeal.

McDevitt will be wasting our money on a hopeless appeal. See the difference there.

Unless they miraculously come up with new evidence in 21 days, they would be very reckless to appeal. They are already under heat for wasting time and money proceeding with this against better judgement, taking it any further and losing would almost certainly see heads role, one would imagine.

Don't get too far ahead of yourself. If the Chairman saw TB4 as the only Thymosin on the table, the only one Charters sourced and received for Dank, TA1 being totally disregarded, a player telling ASADA Dank kept telling him it was thymosin during inerviews, the text messages between Hird and Dank regarding thymosin injections, Dank's admission he administered TB4 to the players in the AGE in 2013, signed consent forms with thymosin on it, then what the hell could have it been? After all that not sure how the Judge come up with the fact that his purchase of TB4 may have been for private purposes hence not comfortably satisfied it was for Essendon players, where the link broke down for ASADA. Surely you could possibly argue comfortable satisfaction right there. Sounded like it was a very close thing and would make an appeal interesting. IMO I think the Tribunal were as sympathetic to the players as much as they could possibly be in their finding. Possible an AFL Appeals Tribunal could be similar but the CAS are tough, hard buggers and don't show sympathy. Anti-doping they understand and will be alot more likely to to be comfortably satisfied and any local Tribunal.

 

[CD Xbow]

Is anyone else blown away that in the year 2015 there is no blood test for Thymosin Beta 4?
Does anyone here whos scientifically inclined know whats so special about TB4 (and I assume many other substances) that it cant be found in blood yet?

It can with laboratory tests. Here is an example - http://www.cloud-clone.us/ELISA/ELISA-Kit-for-Thymosin-Beta-4-(Tb4)-28284.htm At the bottom of the page are links to other tests. This particular is overly complex/expensive and probably too expensive for mass screening. It is probably only a matter of time for a simple kit to be developed. I was looking up its tb4 pharmacokinetics and I ended up here, offering tb4 'help' http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/peptides-growth-factors/85988-thymosin-beta-4-help.html Highlights the money behind the peptides. Also found it has been patented by Roche. These body building forums are so kind, they even give you stuff for free - which is rather disturbing.


PS I did not join and get my gift.

 

[Kaiser Powser]

Really, I read that interview and thought it was an important link in the chain of circumstantial evidence.

Who knows what the ex footy players and AFL tribunal chairman thought though, it's hard to second guess once the fix is in.

Yes, no doubt your bias is less than the tribunals.

 

[Boxhead_31]

Colour me confused:
“In summary, the Tribunal concludes that the supplement program was not of the standard and rigour one would expect from an elite football club like Essendon. It was not subject to rigorous supervision and oversight in its formulation, implementation and execution by the club medical personnel and others with the necessary qualifications and expertise. There was far too much reliance on Mr Dank, and to a lesser extent Mr Robinson and too much executive responsibility given to Mr Dank. Decisive action was not taken when it was clear there were concerns and issues. Rather, Mr Dank’s explanations were accepted and he was allowed to continue his supplement program. Players were not properly or adequately informed of what was happening and their purported consent by signing the form was not truly informed consent.

Most importantly, there was a deplorable failure to keep comprehensive records of the supplement program and its administration.”

To assess the case the parties agreed there were three indispensable elements or links:

(a) TB4 was procured from sources in China; and

(b) TB4 was obtained by Mr Alavi, compounded and provided to Mr Dank in his capacity as Sports Scientist at Essendon; and

(c) Mr Dank administered TB4 to each Player

The Tribunal comfortably accepted:

Charter purchased what he believed to be TB4 and arranged to have it sent to Alavi;

Alavi believed that what he was compounding was TB4;

Alavi dispensed 26 vials of a substance he believed to be TB4 to Dank;

Correspondence between Alavi and Dank regarding “thymosin” refers to TB4;

And Alavi’s lab technician Vania Giordani compounded 15 vials of a substance she believed to be TB4 for Mr Dank.

But at every stage the Tribunal failed to be comfortably satisfied that what was purported to be was in fact Thymosin Beta 4.

It notes on multiple occasions: “It is possible but the Tribunal is not comfortably satisfied.”

The Tribunal wasn’t convinced that the substance in the first batch from China was TB4 or that a second shipment even existed.

As for what came into Alavi’s possession and was then delivered to Dank experts for both sides agreed the substance was not Thymosin A1, which had subsequently been claimed."

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl...-thymosin-beta-4/story-e6frf3e3-1227288292492

The tribunal accepts that TB4 like substance was brought in China, Mixed by Alavi and given to Dank but they don't believe it was TB4?

 

[rose jam]

I think it is a dead issue unless WADA appeal because CAS will not be swayed at all by player sympathy which is very natural in this case.

 

[Kaiser Powser]

Don't get too far ahead of yourself. If the Chairman saw TB4 as the only Thymosin on the table, the only one Charters sourced and received for Dank, TA1 being totally disregarded, a player telling ASADA Dank kept telling him it was thymosin during inerviews, the text messages between Hird and Dank regarding thymosin injections, Dank's admission he administered TB4 to the players in the AGE in 2013, signed consent forms with thymosin on it, then what the hell could have it been? After all that not sure how the Judge come up with the fact that his purchase of TB4 may have been for private purposes hence not comfortably satisfied it was for Essendon players, where the link broke down for ASADA. Surely you could possibly argue comfortable satisfaction right there. Sounded like it was a very close thing and would make an appeal interesting. IMO I think the Tribunal were as sympathetic to the players as much as they could possibly be in their finding. Possible an AFL Appeals Tribunal could be similar but the CAS are tough, hard buggers and don't show sympathy. Anti-doping they understand and will be alot more likely to to be comfortably satisfied and any local Tribunal.

I haven't seen the ruling, but the word seems to be it was more of a smackdown than a close run thing.
Also I was under the understanding that CAS operated on 'Beyond reasonable doubt', a higher burden of proof, that 'comfortably satisfaction'. So that is even less likely of getting up there.

 

[Armchair Critic]

Colour me confused:
“In summary, the Tribunal concludes that the supplement program was not of the standard and rigour one would expect from an elite football club like Essendon. It was not subject to rigorous supervision and oversight in its formulation, implementation and execution by the club medical personnel and others with the necessary qualifications and expertise. There was far too much reliance on Mr Dank, and to a lesser extent Mr Robinson and too much executive responsibility given to Mr Dank. Decisive action was not taken when it was clear there were concerns and issues. Rather, Mr Dank’s explanations were accepted and he was allowed to continue his supplement program. Players were not properly or adequately informed of what was happening and their purported consent by signing the form was not truly informed consent.

Most importantly, there was a deplorable failure to keep comprehensive records of the supplement program and its administration.”

To assess the case the parties agreed there were three indispensable elements or links:

(a) TB4 was procured from sources in China; and

(b) TB4 was obtained by Mr Alavi, compounded and provided to Mr Dank in his capacity as Sports Scientist at Essendon; and

(c) Mr Dank administered TB4 to each Player

The Tribunal comfortably accepted:

Charter purchased what he believed to be TB4 and arranged to have it sent to Alavi;

Alavi believed that what he was compounding was TB4;

Alavi dispensed 26 vials of a substance he believed to be TB4 to Dank;

Correspondence between Alavi and Dank regarding “thymosin” refers to TB4;

And Alavi’s lab technician Vania Giordani compounded 15 vials of a substance she believed to be TB4 for Mr Dank.

But at every stage the Tribunal failed to be comfortably satisfied that what was purported to be was in fact Thymosin Beta 4.

It notes on multiple occasions: “It is possible but the Tribunal is not comfortably satisfied.”

The Tribunal wasn’t convinced that the substance in the first batch from China was TB4 or that a second shipment even existed.

As for what came into Alavi’s possession and was then delivered to Dank experts for both sides agreed the substance was not Thymosin A1, which had subsequently been claimed."

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl...-thymosin-beta-4/story-e6frf3e3-1227288292492

The tribunal accepts that TB4 was brought in China, Mixed by Alavi and given to Dank but they don't believe it was TB4?

No , they accept the 3 witnesses believed it was TB4 but were not comfortably satisfied it was