Will ASADA/WADA appeal? - UPDATE: ASADA will not appeal - WADA has appealed

[CoastersFlag No.5]

I have basically no confidence in ASADA now. After 2 years they could not establish a evidence trail to Essendon from Charter Dank and Alavi what could they possibly uncover or who could they possibly compel to produce evidence that would make any appeal successful.

 

[imperial_oz]

To be fair though after Charter the link of the others believing it was Tb4 would be based on no other reason than Charter's word IMO. The tribunal deemed his credibility low, makes the case impossible to prove

Thats not necessarily true although I wouldn't dispute your assessment of the credibility of those involved in the chain.

The panel dismissed the TB4 from the manufacturer to Charter saying it was proven to actually be TB4. Manufacturer gave a statement that he supplied TB4. Subsequent to Charter, it was tested in an independent lab and the mass spectrograph was consistent with TB4. Thats two independent pieces of evidence at different stages in the chain that are mutually supportive.

Against that is what?

You cannot just say you can't prove it wasn't what it was supposed to be. There needs to be a reason to dismiss independent evidence to create doubt. From the reports, and they could well be incomplete, the only defence was its not proven to actually contain TB4 but I've yet to see any reason for doubt that was put forward to the tribunal.

From my point of view, there needs to be a reason to dismiss the evidence led by ASADA. The panel appears to have taken the default view that if you can't absolutely prove it is then we will assume it really isn't. A more correct way would have been to say unless there is a reason to doubt then the evidence says it is what is is supposed to be. Its a fine point I guess but a very important one. In my view the panel erred and CAS might see it in a different way....or maybe not.

 

[romeoh]

I have basically no confidence in ASADA now. After 2 years they could not establish a evidence trail to Essendon from Charter Dank and Alavi what could they possibly uncover or who could they possibly compel to produce evidence that would make any appeal successful.

I get that the tribunal can surmise what happened, and maybe they think it happened, but no positive tests and no documentation means they can't get the link of what was actually in the injections for sure. ASADA seems to have no authority to compel the key parties to give evidence-so they are hamstrung. Pretty stupid set up. Asada made mistakes but it seems more that they haven't the power.

 

[vonn]

I can't even believe the organisation handing down the punishment was not a completely independent third party. Absolutely reeks of immaturity. I hope WADA take it to CAS.

 

[cfc to aufc]

I can't even believe the organisation handing down the punishment was not a completely independent third party. Absolutely reeks of immaturity. I hope WADA take it to CAS.

Wada taking it to Cas is the only hope if you have any Australian organisations involved it will clearly be biased as has been shown to date

 

[NoAFLinmycomp]

The smack down element comes from the Hun, read extracts from papers other than belonging to the Murdoctopus. Different picture emerges. , indeed the more you read the more you believe ASADA case was strong. The narrative that many are running, such as the Hun, is ASADA are incompetent, typical government bureaucracy that are trying to destroy our game. Even pollies are getting in on it. Why? I expect McDeviitt will come under increasing political pressure to let go, which may be there seems to be moves to get AFL out of WADA. This saga really has everything.

If political pressure is placed on ASADA, then it will be WADA's call. This might be part of the delaying tactics - ASADA holds as long as they and then reluctantly decline near 21 days, providinng WADA time to plan their appeal.

WADA then announce they are considering their appeal, giving then another 20 days to prepare review by CAS.

Straight out of the Essendon play book. Aint Karma a bitch!

 

[BlueWorld]

Is anyone else blown away that in the year 2015 there is no blood test for Thymosin Beta 4?



Does anyone here whos scientifically inclined know whats so special about TB4 (and I assume many other substances) that it cant be found in blood yet?

There is a test in Germany where players samples were sent but because of its short action it would only show positive within a few hours of it being administered.

 

[Blue1980]

Unless this thing goes to CAS, I don't think anyone outside of Essendon supporters will believe their innocence. If they got to CAS and they say their all cool, I think a lot more will be able to live with it.

Its just nuts something like this isn't brought to an independent tribunal.

ASADA have shown WADA they are incompetent and corrupt.

 

[BlueWorld]

how can ASADA prove Essendon didnt use thymomodulin?

By the molecular weight which matched tb4 but not Ta.

 

[romeoh]

Unless this thing goes to CAS, I don't think anyone outside of Essendon supporters will believe their innocence. If they got to CAS and they say their all cool, I think a lot more will be able to live with it.

Its just nuts something like this isn't brought to an independent tribunal.

ASADA have shown WADA they are incompetent and corrupt.

How have they shown this?

 

[mxett]

By the molecular weight which matched tb4 but not Ta.

That doesnt prove they never used thymomodulin

 

[Blue1980]

I get that the tribunal can surmise what happened, and maybe they think it happened, but no positive tests and no documentation means they can't get the link of what was actually in the injections for sure. ASADA seems to have no authority to compel the key parties to give evidence-so they are hamstrung. Pretty stupid set up. Asada made mistakes but it seems more that they haven't the power.

Well with Armstrong it took years and other guys eventually singing like canaries. All it will take is a few to blab, and also remember the longer it goes and the less immediate on field impact it will have on Essendon, the less the AFL will care. They only care now because they don't want a side wiped out for a season as it effects their bottom line. If its in 1-2 years time something happens, the remaining players will be far less, also more people will have moved on generally and feel more that its not their issue but that of the previous administration.

 

[Blue1980]

How have they shown this?

Dodgy emails with the government early on, assuring the players they were ok, then renegged on it. There is more

 

[mxett]

Unless this thing goes to CAS, I don't think anyone outside of Essendon supporters will believe their innocence. If they got to CAS and they say their all cool, I think a lot more will be able to live with it.

Its just nuts something like this isn't brought to an independent tribunal.

ASADA have shown WADA they are incompetent and corrupt.

I doubt it. Then people will claim CAS are corrupt and destroying evidence is a green light for doping

 

[Armchair Critic]

Thats not necessarily true although I wouldn't dispute your assessment of the credibility of those involved in the chain.

The panel dismissed the TB4 from the manufacturer to Charter saying it was proven to actually be TB4. Manufacturer gave a statement that he supplied TB4. Subsequent to Charter, it was tested in an independent lab and the mass spectrograph was consistent with TB4. Thats two independent pieces of evidence at different stages in the chain that are mutually supportive.

Against that is what?

You cannot just say you can't prove it wasn't what it was supposed to be. There needs to be a reason to dismiss independent evidence to create doubt. From the reports, and they could well be incomplete, the only defence was its not proven to actually contain TB4 but I've yet to see any reason for doubt that was put forward to the tribunal.

From my point of view, there needs to be a reason to dismiss the evidence led by ASADA. The panel appears to have taken the default view that if you can't absolutely prove it is then we will assume it really isn't. A more correct way would have been to say unless there is a reason to doubt then the evidence says it is what is is supposed to be. Its a fine point I guess but a very important one. In my view the panel erred and CAS might see it in a different way....or maybe not.

Unless I see a complete chain of custody I am not going to put much weight in the testing of the substance TBH. I understand it lower standard than proof beyond reasonable doubt but from my own personal experience it is an integral part in the validity of tests

 

[Ancient Tiger]

Unless this thing goes to CAS, I don't think anyone outside of Essendon supporters will believe their innocence. If they got to CAS and they say their all cool, I think a lot more will be able to live with it.

Its just nuts something like this isn't brought to an independent tribunal.

ASADA have shown WADA they are incompetent and corrupt.

How have they been corrupt?

 

[NoAFLinmycomp]

I thought Whately on 360 tonight was essentially saying the tribunal believed that Dank, Charters and Alavi thought they were buying it and compounding it. But the chain of steps to the players couldn't be made ( probs because of no docs!). So had no choice but Not Guilty.

Which sadly, sets the standard supplement management programs for the future.

What should be happening, is that the inability to counter the trail with records should be an own goal. Instead it's the technicality that gets them off.

The players also have a right to their full medical records whilst at the club. If the Hunter claim is unable to source complete records (as the tribunal outcome indicates will now occur). Then surely there are other club and support staff penalties coming. And this is a something that the AFLPA as the players' representative body, should be leading.

 

[ThatsjustDappa]

It does not matter what they think it was if it was not TB4 , they just have to be convinced to a comfortable satisfaction it was.Investigations starting a year after the fact are always going to be tough

What I don't understand in all this is two ex-judges reviewed the case evidence and recommended ASADA to proceed. Did they just have a different view of what constitutes comfortable satisfaction compared to the tribunal?

 

[mxett]

Which sadly, sets the standard supplement management programs for the future.

What should be happening, is the inability to counter the trail with records should be an own goal. Instead it's the technicality that gets them off.

The players also have a right to their full medical records whilst at the club. If the Hunter claim is unable to source complete records (as the tribunal outcome indicates will now occur). Then surely there are other club and support staff penalties coming. And this is a something that the AFLPA as the players' representative body, should be leading.

If you think the repurcussions of the last 2 years are worth the risk of using a similar program then good luck to you

 

[Armchair Critic]

What I don't understand in all this is two ex-judges reviewed the case evidence and recommended ASADA to proceed. Did they just have a different view of what constitutes comfortable satisfaction compared to the tribunal?

Richard Young who gave it the tick of approval has allegedly never lost a case, On the other side I have heard David Jones has never had a decision overturned.

To put it in laymen's terms, I honestly have no ****ing idea

 

[Ancient Tiger]

What I don't understand in all this is two ex-judges reviewed the case evidence and recommended ASADA to proceed. Did they just have a different view of what constitutes comfortable satisfaction compared to the tribunal?

Part of the problem is that in this case the point of comfortable satisfaction can be close to balance of probability or close to beyond reasonable doubt or in between those two points. I think that the judges here probably had it close to beyond reasonable doubt.

As I have said, we need to accept this and move on.

 

[BloodRet]

So I'm confused. Has Dank chosen not to hand over a list of what the players were administered but still has it in his possession, or has he 'lost' the track of what players were given?

 

[BlueWorld]

I haven't seen the ruling, but the word seems to be it was more of a smackdown than a close run thing.
Also I was under the understanding that CAS operated on 'Beyond reasonable doubt', a higher burden of proof, that 'comfortably satisfaction'. So that is even less likely of getting up there.

the word? What does that mean? No one knows other than those directly involved.

You are wrong. Same as tribunal, comfortable satisfaction.

 

[romeoh]

What I don't understand in all this is two ex-judges reviewed the case evidence and recommended ASADA to proceed. Did they just have a different view of what constitutes comfortable satisfaction compared to the tribunal?

That is an interesting question.

 

[Armchair Critic]

If you think the repurcussions of the last 2 years are worth the risk of using a similar program then good luck to you

Not that I am saying it will happen but in 1998 was the Festina scandal in the Tour De France, Police raids on hotels , team cars etc etc. 99 Lance Armstrong came to town.