Will ASADA/WADA appeal? - UPDATE: ASADA will not appeal - WADA has appealed

[Xtreme]

As I have said, we need to accept this and move on.

NEVERRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

 

[Ancient Tiger]

I think what this saga has highlighted is that the rules need changing.

The default position is the club/player must have a record of what was administered together with all the financials. Lack of any of these assumes guilt just like a positive AAF. If that is the case then clubs will be forced to keep all records or risk losing all their players to suspensions.

We need something good to come out of all of this and that would be a good start.

 

[romeoh]

If you think the repurcussions of the last 2 years are worth the risk of using a similar program then good luck to you

But the 'principle' of what he said remains correctly, a concern, whether it is Essendon or any other club. If there are no positive tests and no records then conviction is difficult. Eg In this case despite appearances, no one can say with certainty that the stuff that was ordered and compounded went into needles that went into player's bodies.
Think a another method needs to be devised, or else the burden of proof more flexible?

 

[BlueWorld]

The smack down element comes from the Hun, read extracts from papers other than belonging to the Murdoctopus. Different picture emerges. , indeed the more you read the more you believe ASADA case was strong. The narrative that many are running, such as the Hun, is ASADA are incompetent, typical government bureaucracy that are trying to destroy our game. Even pollies are getting in on it. Why? I expect McDeviitt will come under increasing political pressure to let go, which may be there seems to be moves to get AFL out of WADA. This saga really has everything.

Murdoch own foxtel which is highly dependent on AFL so the last thing they want is disruption to the season. Hun sponsors efc. Robinson is in loves with hird. No conflict of interest there.

 

[NoAFLinmycomp]

Unless this thing goes to CAS, I don't think anyone outside of Essendon supporters will believe their innocence. If they got to CAS and they say their all cool, I think a lot more will be able to live with it.

Its just nuts something like this isn't brought to an independent tribunal.

ASADA have shown WADA they are incompetent and corrupt.

As they say, "show me the money". This injection regime was designed to make someone money down the track.
In this I believe a shred from Dank's stories in that there were records - as the program is worthless without them.

The tip-off allowed EFC one final chance to clear out any remaining records after whatever cleansing had started when the program started to fail. Then to cop a "governance" and BTGID failure with agreed penalties, with both AFL and EFC comfortably satisfied that there was insufficient evidence left for ASADA to get player convictions.

I still believe that whoever had invested in the program would have duplicate records and that these may still exist - even now they would still have value to different groups involved in this saga.

The challenge for ASADA, WADA and the players (for medical assessment and closure) is to either find them directly, or find the trigger that will enable them to be released.

Nice story I know, but I'm happy with it at the moment.

 

[BlueWorld]

My reading of it is they think the Chinese Manufacturer said it was TB4 and packaged something else.

"Charter purchased what he believed to be TB4".

apparently it was never tested so the tribunal couldn't be certain.

 

[Armchair Critic]

I think what this saga has highlighted is that the rules need changing.

The default position is the club/player must have a record of what was administered together with all the financials. Lack of any of these assumes guilt just like a positive AAF. If that is the case then clubs will be forced to keep all records or risk losing all their players to suspensions.

We need something good to come out of all of this and that would be a good start.

That is just ridiculous IMO. If the investigation does not begin till 5-6 years after the alleged offense you expect players to have all these records, they could have played 4 for different clubs in 4 different countries depending what sport or what if it is an individual sport where you are in a different country every week .

It is way over the top.

 

[thegerman]

I think what this saga has highlighted is that the rules need changing.

The default position is the club/player must have a record of what was administered together with all the financials. Lack of any of these assumes guilt just like a positive AAF. If that is the case then clubs will be forced to keep all records or risk losing all their players to suspensions.

We need something good to come out of all of this and that would be a good start.

Well that does happen in other sports, just not ours. If you miss consecutive tests in athletics, you are deemed to have cheated, it are at least attempting to.

Yet AFL, you can inject any substance, not care what it is, don't keep records, then can take no responsibility of it and continue to play.

 

[mxett]

But the 'principle' of what he said remains correctly, a concern, whether it is Essendon or any other club. If there are no positive tests and no records then conviction is difficult. Eg In this case despite appearances, no one can say with certainty that the stuff that was ordered and compounded went into needles that went into player's bodies.
Think a another method needs to be devised, or else the burden of proof more flexible?

Buts its more than no positive test and records. No confession, no smoking gun in the form of an incriminating document, text, email or phone call. Nothing

 

[NoAFLinmycomp]

If you think the repurcussions of the last 2 years are worth the risk of using a similar program then good luck to you

As I said in another post, Essendon did it very badly. A poor, amateurish program that rode too close to the edge for too long, without any thought to seriously monitoring how far over they had gone. The next bunch of "close to the edge" supplements programs won't be so badly controlled or run.

I don't want to see a PED arms race, where you have to be supplemented to get a team on the park. Imagine a 90s-00s pro cycling team, with a free pass for "oops I lost my records"?

 

[mxett]

Well that does happen in other sports, just not ours. If you miss consecutive tests in athletics, you are deemed to have cheated, it are at least attempting to.

Yet AFL, you can inject any substance, not care what it is, don't keep records, then can take no responsibility of it and continue to play.

Not the same at all. The same rules about testing apply to AFL players. In fact essendon were target tested

 

[Dave]

Not sure if it's been linked here, but there's been something with the new WADA guidelines that's been overlooked here. Courtesy of the Age:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...nt-pause-not-a-full-stop-20150331-1mc0w5.html

Interesting.

Basically, an appeal is more of a re-trial...

Under the new code. Not sure if that applies to an appeal of a case heard under the old code.

How have they been corrupt?

They didn't give him the result he wanted. Cot. Toys. Out.

 

[BlueWorld]

Talking from a biased essendon perspective, I thought it was pathetic that after delivering the infractions he went on radio trumpting the strength of their case and almost urging the cheating players to take deals.

I thought the length of time it took to get to the final stages was disgraceful. What was it, 12 months since the final player interview?

I thought it was hilarious that after taking their sweet time to do everything else, the agency he oversees didn't think to issue appear notices to their two most important witnesses until the very last moment, wasting taxpayer with a court challenge.

WADA weren't happy (according to Caro), government had questions that will be exacerbated by the not guilty verdict, and now the football public is against them.

And nah, I highly doubt we'll beat Sydney. But hopefully me make a good game of it.

He's as entitled to talk up his case as efc players and supporters how confident they were.

You criticize the case as weak. It took 12 months to gather enough evidence and have it reviewed.

The witnesses decided at the last minute to not appear.

Go swans.

 

[mxett]

As I said in another post, Essendon did it very badly. A poor, amateurish program that rode too close to the edge for too long, without any thought to seriously monitoring how far over they had gone. The next bunch of "close to the edge" supplements programs won't be so badly controlled or run.

I don't want to see a PED arms race, where you have to be supplemented to get a team on the park. Imagine a 90s-00s pro cycling team, with a free pass for "oops I lost my records"?

i don't see how anyone can think a 26 month investigation with trial by media would be a reasonable cost for running close to the line. Players may not have been banned but 2 seasons were still a write off, and the lack of preparation this year threatens another

 

[Armchair Critic]

I think what this saga has highlighted is that the rules need changing.

The default position is the club/player must have a record of what was administered together with all the financials. Lack of any of these assumes guilt just like a positive AAF. If that is the case then clubs will be forced to keep all records or risk losing all their players to suspensions.

We need something good to come out of all of this and that would be a good start.

I will apologise for coming across rude, it was not my intention.

I will put it to you another way.

ASADA accuse me of being injected with TB4, I have no records or no financials as I never actually took the substance. How can you expect someone to go to a tribunal assumed guilty when it's is pretty much impossible to prove I did not have it

 

[compact72]

ASADA boss Ben McDevitt insists Essendon players took banned drugs and says case is not yet closed

The CEO who will ultimately say whether ASADA appeals the not-guilty judgment by an AFL anti-doping tribunal of 34 current and ex-footballers, McDevitt has revealed he expects to have crucial evidence concerning discredited sport scientist Stephen Dank within days.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...s-case-is-not-yet-closed-20150401-1md2ip.html

Oh its on like donkey kong

 

[BlueWorld]

The football public is against who????!!

I think he means the efc public. No they don't want doping controlled.

 

[BlueWorld]

To be fair though after Charter the link of the others believing it was Tb4 would be based on no other reason than Charter's word IMO. The tribunal deemed his credibility low, makes the case impossible to prove

Get low life's involved and you'll get away with anything.

 

[Ancient Tiger]

I will apologise for coming across rude, it was not my intention.

I will put it to you another way.

ASADA accuse me of being injected with TB4, I have no records or no financials as I never actually took the substance. How can you expect someone to go to a tribunal assumed guilty when it's is pretty much impossible to prove I did not have it

Well, they of course have to have strong evidence you were injected with something to get thing going I would have thought.

 

[Armchair Critic]

'

Well, they of course have to have strong evidence you were injected with something to get thing going I would have thought.

I think it should be up to a tribunal to decide how strong evidence is for anything other than a positive test.

 

[romeoh]

Buts its more than no positive test and records. No confession, no smoking gun in the form of an incriminating document, text, email or phone call. Nothing

You are missing the point- forget that it is your club and apply this to the future and any club if you can Mxett.
There is a problem with the burden of proof.
No positive tests, no documentation. Very few will confess. The documentation is still a problem-go and watch 360 tonight for an example-there is documentation that makes convincing links to Charters, Alavi, Danks and illegal substances according to Whatley. But there is still real difficulty in 'proving' that those substances went into a body-its not that hard to understand is it?
So yep, in the very unlikely event that there are lots of texts saying do this and we took that ( like who will send texts and emails like that now?) then its really tricky and we need a better system. Otherwise what is to stop the next club from saying 'sorry no test, no docs'?

 

[BlueWorld]

Richard Young who gave it the tick of approval has allegedly never lost a case, On the other side I have heard David Jones has never had a decision overturned.

To put it in laymen's terms, I honestly have no ******* idea

Don't think Young will want to spoil that, appeal likely.

 

[Armchair Critic]

Don't think Young will want to spoil that, appeal likely.

He is not the Prosecutor though, just gave advice

 

[Boxhead_31]

I think what this saga has highlighted is that the rules need changing.

The default position is the club/player must have a record of what was administered together with all the financials. Lack of any of these assumes guilt just like a positive AAF. If that is the case then clubs will be forced to keep all records or risk losing all their players to suspensions.

We need something good to come out of all of this and that would be a good start.

Nice sensible solution

 

[NoAFLinmycomp]

i don't see how anyone can think a 26 month investigation with trial by media would be a reasonable cost for running close to the line. Players may not have been banned but 2 seasons were still a write off, and the lack of preparation this year threatens another

It's the lessons captured within, on how to shift/outsource responsibility, minimal-to-no records, 3rd party payments, offsite activities, new drugs, more testing than the governing body can match .... there's so much here that will be re-used now.

As I said Mxett and I stick by it, EFC were bordering on stupid in the way they tried to run this. They had the key components but they couldn't pull them together. Others will not be so amateurish.

And if ASADA/WADA do not have the tools and the unbiased support from the league to convict a poorly run program like this one, they will have no hope in hell of convicting a well-run one.

If I put my tin-foil hat and my parochial crow-eaters scarfe on (that's the real, old, SANFL badged, woolen one; not the recent, cheap and nasty, AFL badged, polyester one) I could almost be coaxed into believing that this is what the AFL really wanted all along. That and to ensure there was no long-term risk to one of their cornerstone VFL clubs.

Ah well, I live in hope that there is one last hurrah to come. That Dank can be held for something, that can then trigger further investigations into the Club (not the players) and the AFL itself.