GWS in Canberra

[Colonial]

I think the crowd numbers come down to a sense that NSW/ACT folk, for whatever reason, tend to go to live sporting events in smaller numbers than in Victoria and Queensland. While the Swans have been very successful in building their baseline crowd numbers, it has taken time, and it will take time for GWS in western Sydney (with a more diverse population) that has to be wooed and won over.

Fans show up when it’s worth it.
Way to many NRL clubs in Sydney it’s amazing the crowds they do get.

Swans in Sydney full time and still took 20 to 30 years to win over their support.
Can’t win over a parochial region by being part time.
Western Sydney is very parochial.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Swans in Sydney full time and still took 20 to 30 years to win over their support.
Can’t win over a parochial region by being part time.
Western Sydney is very parochial.

I take you LF point but whay’s the solution?
(1) GWS to play all 11 home games at Giants stadium - will there be enough financial support and crowds attending, and what happens during the Easter show? (2) what about Canberra then? Does Canberra have its own standalone team 20 - will we have enough financial support from the Government and get the crowds that currently come for 3 matches to come for 11 matches? We also will need a stadium upgrade from the current 15k capacity

I think the current setup is as good as it gets and balances the needs of both WS and ACT (and the regions nearby). Interestingly the ACT government in the new 10 year deal has the option of purchasing a 4th game if available - presumably they, GWS and the AFL think the market can support that? I think GWS’s long term 11 year (and now 21 years) commitment has been good for us, and better than the previous short term deals with Norths

 

[captainMyCaptain]

Well at the end of this new deal the club will have been in both western Sydney and Canberra market for 20 years, and if the club hasn't cut through the Sydney market by then but is still making positive inroads in Canberra then relocation would have to be considered. But obviously a lot can change in 10 years and maybe things will be looking better in western Sydney then.

 

[Colonial]

So Western Sydney accept part timers or club gets moved to the easy spot?
Yes a great way to win over the locals

Everyone keeps saying need the money need the Canberra support. So why all the bullshit about “going the hard yards” and “in it for the long hall” in Western Sydney from the club and AFL?

 

[MelbourneGWS]

the reaction in Canberra to the deal has been mixed, which is probably a reflection of us not being an AFL heartland. Other codes are not impressed with the $28.5 million 10 year deal we got- especially since the ACT Government gives the two other major (and full time) Canberra based Rugby League team $13 million over 5 years and the Rugby Union ACT Brumbies got $3.5 million over 2 years!

Some comments below, which is also broadly reflected in the comments from our main local paper, the Canberra Times (which is paywalled though):Are the GWS Giants worth $28.5 million over 10 years? | Riotact

 

[Land of the Giants]

Western Sydney and Canberra have nothing in common.

Judging by the marriage equality postal ballot, Western Sydney and the rest of Australia have nothing in common.

 

[Land of the Giants]

When I became a foundation member, I accepted the 8-3 split between Canberra and Homebush. I understood the problem with the timing of the Easter Show, and thought Canberra would work as there was no other practical solution.

I have fond memories of those Saturday and Sunday afternoons in the Capital when the upswing was on and we turned Manuka into a fortress. But I don't want the club to move there full time.

I acknowledge when it comes to growing our fan base, we do have an advantage in Canberra. People are already onboard with Australian culture.That is not always the case in Western Sydney.

We are literally putting the cart before the horse. I grew up in Sydney's west and worked there for a long time, and I've seen how it has changed over the years.That is the real difference between us and the Swans. They were looking to convert people to a code, and had demographics on their side. We're looking to convert people to part of Australian culture. And many of them don't buy into it or see why they should have to.

There's no easy solution. At the end of the day, we're just going to have to persist, and start winning again.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

When I became a foundation member, I accepted the 8-3 split between Canberra and Homebush. I understood the problem with the timing of the Easter Show, and thought Canberra would work as there was no other practical solution.

I have fond memories of those Saturday and Sunday afternoons in the Capital when the upswing was on and we turned Manuka into a fortress. But I don't want the club to move there full time.

I acknowledge when it comes to growing our fan base, we do have an advantage in Canberra. People are already onboard with Australian culture.That is not always the case in Western Sydney.

We are literally putting the cart before the horse. I grew up in Sydney's west and worked there for a long time, and I've seen how it has changed over the years.That is the real difference between us and the Swans. They were looking to convert people to a code, and had demographics on their side. We're looking to convert people to part of Australian culture. And many of them don't buy into it or see why they should have to.

There's no easy solution. At the end of the day, we're just going to have to persist, and start winning again.

I don’t think we will have a full time Canberra based AFL team for a long time, and as a Foundation member am happy that GWS will be having a long term 21 year (at least) commitment with our region.

Very interesting point about the challenges faced in Western Sydney. Thanks for sharing that insight. Whilst winning and making finals regularly will help, it’s still going to be a hard slog

 

[Colonial]

We were winning and it didn’t grow our fan base.

We have to choose. Canberra or Western Sydney.

We won’t be anything until then.

 

[Land of the Giants]

We were winning and it didn’t grow our fan base.

We've got all the low-hanging fruit there was to get.

People who already bought into the code, just not the Swans.

Now we're preaching to people who live here, and in many cases were even born here, who aren't cultural Australians. That's a much harder sell.

 

[Colonial]

We've got all the low-hanging fruit there was to get.

People who already bought into the code, just not the Swans.

Now we're preaching to people who live here, and in many cases were even born here, who aren't cultural Australians. That's a much harder sell.

Especially when the club isn’t all in.
Plenty of AFL fans in Western Sydney, they just follow other sides.

 

[Land of the Giants]

Especially when the club isn’t all in.
Plenty of AFL fans in Western Sydney, they just follow other sides.

I think you're over-stating things a little bit. Homebush gets our home finals plus the derby with the Swans.

We've got bigger challenges in Western Sydney than playing in Canberra at Easter.

 

[Colonial]

I think you're over-stating things a little bit. Homebush gets our home finals plus the derby with the Swans.

We've got bigger challenges in Western Sydney than playing in Canberra at Easter.

A derby wouldn’t be a derby if we were the Canberra Giants.

As for finals, as they should they are Western Sydney not Canberra.

We probably do, but it is a major issue.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

A derby wouldn’t be a derby if we were the Canberra Giants.

As for finals, as they should they are Western Sydney not Canberra.

We probably do, but it is a major issue.

If there was regular big crowds attending Giants Stadium, then there would be a good case for all games to be played there, even though there would still be an issue with games needing to be scheduled somewhere during the Easter Show. Hence why Canberra is a great choice, and playing in Canberra has been a part of GWS’s plan since inception. There are approx 6,500 GWS members in ACT, including many who were there from the 2011 NEAFL debut of our team. I don’t think it’s a mutually exclusive choice of Canberra or GWS, and the current arrangements are beneficial for GWS and Canberra fans and players.

 

[Colonial]

If there was regular big crowds attending Giants Stadium, then there would be a good case for all games to be played there, even though there would still be an issue with games needing to be scheduled somewhere during the Easter Show. Hence why Canberra is a great choice, and playing in Canberra has been a part of GWS’s plan since inception. There are approx 6,500 GWS members in ACT, including many who were there from the 2011 NEAFL debut of our team. I don’t think it’s a mutually choice of Canberra or GWS, and the current arrangements are beneficial for GWS and Canberra fans and players.

Sorry 1 st line is rubbish.
The case for the Giants was always Western Sydney growth and that it would take a couple of generations to build. But the club needs to go all in. It hasn’t.

No it wasn’t a plan since inception.
The club started and was supposed to be 100% Western Sydney, the Canberra deal came later, as a way of bringing in some coin, the Easter show was a nice “excuse”.
If the Easter Show was the true excuse we would only have 1 or 2 games in Canberra not 3+1.

Financially beneficial yep.
Long term growth in WS beneficial? Nope.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Sorry 1 st line is rubbish.
The case for the Giants was always Western Sydney growth and that it would take a couple of generations to build. But the club needs to go all in. It hasn’t.

No it wasn’t a plan since inception.
The club started and was supposed to be 100% Western Sydney, the Canberra deal came later, as a way of bringing in some coin, the Easter show was a nice “excuse”.
If the Easter Show was the true excuse we would only have 1 or 2 games in Canberra not 3+1.

Financially beneficial yep.
Long term growth in WS beneficial? Nope.

I respect your view, even though as a Canberra member I disagree!

It’s however interesting to note that in the primary overarching document of our club, the Constitution of GWS (http://footyindustry.com/docs/Western Sydney Football Club Limited Constiution (Effective Nov 2013).pdf), it specifically includes Canberra along with WS by stating (under clause 5a2) that
- “the objects and powers for which the Club is established are…(2) To promote the playing of Australian Football throughout Australia, with a specific focus on developing and growing the game of Australian Football in the Western Sydney Region and its surrounds, the state of New South Wales and the Australian Capital Territory”.

I would argue that the 21 year commitment with Canberra is consistent with this purpose?

 

[Colonial]

I respect your view, even though as a Canberra member I disagree!

It’s however interesting to note that in the primary overarching document of our club, the Constitution of GWS (http://footyindustry.com/docs/Western Sydney Football Club Limited Constiution (Effective Nov 2013).pdf), it specifically includes Canberra along with WS by stating (under clause 5a2) that
- “the objects and powers for which the Club is established are…(2) To promote the playing of Australian Football throughout Australia, with a specific focus on developing and growing the game of Australian Football in the Western Sydney Region and its surrounds, the state of New South Wales and the Australian Capital Territory”.

I would argue that the 21 year commitment with Canberra is consistent with this purpose?

That was added after the beginnings of the club.
It’s a club trying to be everything for 2 totally different regions now, for money.
It won’t work and has been shown not to.

 

[Canberra Pear]

From a Canberra GWS member, three games isn't enough. To grow an AFL culture, to compete against the Raiders, we need more regular games.

But we're not going to get more. Eight at Giants Stadium is barely enough. Seven in 2022 was ridiculous. There just aren't enough home games to share.

Without some clever fixturing (like how the Gold Coast manages to be the away team in Cairns), neither area will get a satisfactory number of games.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

From a Canberra GWS member, three games isn't enough. To grow an AFL culture, to compete against the Raiders, we need more regular games.

But we're not going to get more. Eight at Giants Stadium is barely enough. Seven in 2022 was ridiculous. There just aren't enough home games to share.

Without some clever fixturing (like how the Gold Coast manages to be the away team in Cairns), neither area will get a satisfactory number of games.

I too want more AFL games in Canberra, but I think us getting a full time Canberra based Team 20 is a long way off - or at least till the mid 2030s! Even this new deal, only contemplates “the option” of our Territory government purchasing a 4th game annually from GWS if it becomes available - no additional games in Canberra beyond this is specified by all parties during the term of this 10 year deal. Thus at most we will have 4 GWS games in ACT. There has been no move from Barr or AFL to increase the number of AFL games in Canberra beyond the contracted 3 (and a possible 4th). I like your idea of creative fixtures, and maybe we can be the “away” team against the poorer Victorian clubs like Norths, Saints in Canberra. That maybe the next steps to increase the number of AFL games in Canberra? But even if Barr pays more money to these clubs to enable this (unlikely), the Victorian clubs will not readily agree to play “home” matches against us in Canberra, as that puts them at a competitive disadvantage on-field.

 

[Canberra Pear]

I too want more AFL games in Canberra, but I think us getting a full time Canberra based Team 20 is a long way off - or at least till the mid 2030s! Even this new deal, only contemplates “the option” of our Territory government purchasing a 4th game annually from GWS if it becomes available - no additional games in Canberra beyond this is specified by all parties during the term of this 10 year deal. Thus at most we will have 4 GWS games in ACT. There has been no move from Barr or AFL to increase the number of AFL games in Canberra beyond the contracted 3 (and a possible 4th). I like your idea of creative fixtures, and maybe we can be the “away” team against the poorer Victorian clubs like Norths, Saints in Canberra. That maybe the next steps to increase the number of AFL games in Canberra? But even if Barr pays more money to these clubs to enable this (unlikely), the Victorian clubs will not readily agree to play “home” matches against us in Canberra, as that puts them at a competitive disadvantage on-field.

Canberra getting its own team is mostly dependent on what happens with Tasmania.

But in the meantime, I can't see four GWS home games being a regular thing. It was a catch up from 2021. The Sydney fan base can't grow from seven games a year.

But in terms of getting other teams to sell home games, I think finding the money would be harder than finding the teams willing to do it.

The Bulldogs and Richmond both played Gold Coast as "home teams", despite it being a Suns academy zone. Hawthorn is looking to play a Hawks v Tasmania home game in Launceston after Tasmania joins.

Theoretically, if Hawthorn were looking for more options after Tasmania joins, Hawthorn v GWS at Manuka would probably be more profitable than the same fixture at the MCG.

 

[GWS Goose]

I think the current set up gives the best chance of establishing a sustainable base.
Counter intuitively the success of a sporting franchise doesn't lie with the amount of rusted on fans you have but on the breadth and depth of interested parties who have varying degrees of commitment.
Man U and the Lakers aren't huge cause of the blokes that rock up every week, it is the millions of people who "support" them from watching them play most weeks or the big games to if I had a team it'd be them.
The Swans have heaps of fans that are really just interested parties who support Sydney as opposed to the Swans. We'll pick up lots of those types over time (a lot of people who would fit into this category were already on the Swans when we came in.
7 games and local involvement (which is still happening) is enough for us to nab the next generation of those fans.
We will be able to do the same in the Riverina and Canberra by playing games there (and running the academies down there as well). It has been and will be easier there.initially as there was no other team in the area.
Servicing both markets will see us attract a broader base over time. Even if they don't rock up each week.

 

[Canberra Pear]

I think the current set up gives the best chance of establishing a sustainable base.
Counter intuitively the success of a sporting franchise doesn't lie with the amount of rusted on fans you have but on the breadth and depth of interested parties who have varying degrees of commitment.

We will be able to do the same in the Riverina and Canberra by playing games there (and running the academies down there as well). It has been and will be easier there.initially as there was no other team in the area.
Servicing both markets will see us attract a broader base over time. Even if they don't rock up each week.

I disagree.

By straddling both markets, you alienate members of both.

Whether real or perceived, the Canberra relationship shows a lack of commitment to Western Sydney. How many times have you read "just move them to Canberra already"? I constantly read "Manuka short people" on other sports forums. I think there's a public perception that the Giants could move to Canberra at any point, and this perception is limiting growth in the Sydney market.

And the Sydney market should be the primary focus. Greater Western Sydney is absolutely huge. More than 2 million people. That's enough breadth to become a huge club.

Man U and the Lakers aren't huge cause of the blokes that rock up every week, it is the millions of people who "support" them from watching them play most weeks or the big games to if I had a team it'd be them.

These teams also don't ship their home games around. They have a fortress, a single home identity. And while the majority of their support isn't in-person, they still play in front of full crowds, which makes them more appealing to watch on TV, too.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

By straddling both markets, you alienate members of both.

Whether real or perceived, the Canberra relationship shows a lack of commitment to Western Sydney. How many times have you read "just move them to Canberra already"? I constantly read "Manuka short people" on other sports forums. I think there's a public perception that the Giants could move to Canberra at any point, and this perception is limiting growth in the Sydney market.

And the Sydney market should be the primary focus. Greater Western Sydney is absolutely huge. More than 2 million people. That's enough breadth to become a huge club.

I think for Canberra, the GWS relationship is as good as it gets. Without the full support and lobbying by the ACT government and a stadium upgrade we won’t get a Canberra Team 20 when Tasmania enters. If and when GWS draws full crowds to Giants Stadium, then the current GWS arrangement with Canberra can be reviewed? This will take a long time, especially as Manuka crowds are better than Giants Stadium crowds. In the meantime the deal benefits GWS, ACT players as well as fans who get regular AFL matches from a team that has committed to us for 21 years

 

[Colonial]

If and when GWS draws full crowds to Giants Stadium, then the current GWS arrangement with Canberra can be reviewed? This will take a long time, especially as Manuka crowds are better than Giants Stadium crowds. In the meantime the deal benefits GWS, ACT players as well as fans who get regular AFL matches from a team that has committed to us for 21 years

Full crowds? it won’t happen while we have the deal with Canberra. Unless it’s a derby.

Melbourne have better crowds than us, perhaps move us there? Sorry the “Canberra have better crowds” is a strange argument considering the circumstances and the reason for the existence of the club.

Benefits the club financially, kills us in our main objective of growing in Western Sydney.

 

[dlanod]

Full crowds? it won’t happen while we have the deal with Canberra. Unless it’s a derby.

The deal with Canberra is in no significant way impacting crowds up here in Sydney. Maybe a few dozen? Most of our supporters are so casual they don't even find it unusual, or rusted on to the point they find it the norm for us at least.