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[76woodenspooners]

With all the respect that is warranted, you are talking from a position of ignorance. The legal action is finished. Bringing a stale writ back to life is not a simple matter. There is a duty on a plaintiff to serve a writ promptly. There must be a good reason for the granting of an extension.

Would this be a good reason? …

“My client has been acting in good faith by allowing the defendant to establish their highly publicised extensive internal processes. My client has been very patient and understanding that these processes take considerable time. My client acting in good faith has given the defendant every opportunity to address these matters outside of the courts. My client accepts that the defendant has taken significant steps to improve its duty of care to all existing and future people under its responsibility, but my client does not believe that the defendant through this lengthy process is acting in good faith about addressing historical matters.”

 

[sideswipe]

So you are saying because he lost and the club could be defended not because that is not his aim.

Given all the changes the club has made:

• The Do Better Report that has been implemented to ensure that the systemic racism that he was subject to is averted;
• Ed who he previously wanted gone is gone (as an indirect result of the above report);
• We have had an indigenous Vice President since McGuire left;
• Bucks who he previously wanted gone is gone;
• The whole Board has had a shake up after years of complacency;
• Have added two indigenous players (which we were criticised for at the Do Better press conference);
• Added an indigenous coach;
• Have followed up on the Do Better Report, met all of the metrics set and held a video conference about it (which I can only assume H. attended).

What exactly is a "just outcome" that he seeks ?

What's the intent behind those words given we know he has tried to sue the club once already...

To try say he's not motivated by money to some degree is taking the piss.

Lost me at the first paragraph. Incomprehensible.


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[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

Why can't Collingwood issue a formal apology to Lumumba, Davis and Krakouer like they did to Robbie Muir.

It can almost be scripted word for word. It will give the closure that Lumumba needs and hopefully mend bridges for Davis and Krakouer to rebuild the relationship with the club.

I just dont get they see the need to apologies to Muir who never played for the club but they wont to their own players.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Well then they don't apologise that is life. Good faith hey? Very lumumba wording that,

“Good faith” is a very common term used in dispute resolution. Lumumba doesn’t own the term.

pretty sure the club has been turned upside down and inside out this past 18 months to implement changes.

That’s not in dispute. Lumumba and co aren’t claiming otherwise. What they are claiming is that historical matters haven’t been addressed.

To express in different terms, it’s like having the end of the Apartheid era without the Truth and Reconciliation commission.

 

[manicpie]

“Good faith” is a very common term used in dispute resolution. Lumumba doesn’t own the term.



That’s not in dispute. Lumumba and co aren’t claiming otherwise. What they are claiming is that historical matters haven’t been addressed.

To express in different terms, it’s like having the end of the Apartheid era without the Truth and Reconciliation commission.

The club should address past sins. I don't understand the delay. If it resolves the issue, it should be done. I think Lamumba has other agendas as well. One of which will involve money

 

[sideswipe]

Would this be a good reason? …

“My client has been acting in good faith by allowing the defendant to establish their highly publicised extensive internal processes. My client has been very patient and understanding that these processes take considerable time. My client acting in good faith has given the defendant every opportunity to address these matters outside of the courts. My client accepts that the defendant has taken significant steps to improve its duty of care to all existing and future people under its responsibility, but my client does not believe that the defendant through this lengthy process is acting in good faith about addressing historical matters.”

Over-thinking again 76! This is just a question around service of the writ. Just getting the document to the Pies.


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[76woodenspooners]

Why can't Collingwood issue a formal apology to Lumumba, Davis and Krakouer like they did to Robbie Muir.

It can almost be scripted word for word. It will give the closure that Lumumba needs and hopefully mend bridges for Davis and Krakouer to rebuild the relationship with the club.

I just dont get they see the need to apologies to Muir who never played for the club but they wont to their own players.

It’s s fair question …

… I’m guessing that the difference is that (IIRC) Muir’s claims were against the home crowd at Victoria Park, so the club was apologising on behalf of people who are not being identified. Contrast that with Lumumba and Krakouer (and presumably Davis) who are making claims against specific people who were internal to the club, some of whom were in an official capacity. These are people who have not publicly acknowledged the matter or apologised for anything. These are people who have a public profile and a reputation (and livelihood) to protect.

If the club did release a formal apology then you can measure in milliseconds the time it’ll take for journo’s to shove a microphone in front of Ed and Buckley and Pert (currently CEO of the Premiership team), and if their version of events doesn’t match what the club has apologised for then we’re kinda back to where we started.

 

[JB1975]

In the same period over 250k white women had babies taken too, a number dwarfing the indigenous stolen generations. No apology.
No mention of compensation or help. They are just told to get on with it. Interesting little factoid that is often glossed over and never talked about.

The indigenous community is still pushing for compensation on many issues (not just stolen gen) and the apology is an admittance of Government wrong doing is still a key piece of the claim.

No, compensation was a recommendation of the Bringing Them Home report. The apology itself was also a recommendation.

There are also compensation schemes for non-Indigenous claimants, stemming from the Forgotten Australians project. Check it out.

 

[loki04]

Lost me at the first paragraph. Incomprehensible.


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Lol sure it's s hard to understand when you don't want to.

I was just trying to clarify your position on it because your initial point was more or less saying he is not motivated by money as there is no current case. So I need not be concerned with it.
You then shifted the goal posts to the case is closed and it's hard to re instate the writ, plus it's easy to defend Collingwood.
So rather then Heritier not seeking compo it's easy to defend against his case.

His language of "just outcome" and "not acting in good faith" belies the clubs actual changes and effort to address the issues which I listed. So what is he after?

I appreciate the legal clarification of the process but I think your initial juxtaposition is wrong.

 

[loki04]

“Good faith” is a very common term used in dispute resolution. Lumumba doesn’t own the term.



That’s not in dispute. Lumumba and co aren’t claiming otherwise. What they are claiming is that historical matters haven’t been addressed.

To express in different terms, it’s like having the end of the Apartheid era without the Truth and Reconciliation commission.

Disagree he has acknowledged it as his exact words are " Nothing has changed".

 

[sideswipe]

Lol sure it's s hard to understand when you don't want to.

I was just trying to clarify your position on it because your initial point was more or less saying he is not motivated by money as there is no current case. So I need not be concerned with it.
You then shifted the goal posts to the case is closed and it's hard to re instate the writ, plus it's easy to defend Collingwood.
So rather then Heritier not seeking compo it's easy to defend against his case.

His language of "just outcome" and "not acting in good faith" belies the clubs actual changes and effort to address the issues which I listed. So what is he after?

I appreciate the legal clarification of the process but I think your initial juxtaposition is wrong.

Go back and read what I suggested. It wasn’t a position. And certainly not a juxtaposition!


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[JB007]

Disagree he has acknowledged it as his exact words are " Nothing has changed".

You‘re wasting your time mate.

Your daughters story doesn’t surprise me considering our senior health official can’t provide a definition of what a woman is!

 

[loki04]

No, compensation was a recommendation of the Bringing Them Home report. The apology itself was also a recommendation.

There are also compensation schemes for non-Indigenous claimants, stemming from the Forgotten Australians project. Check it out.

That is great to hear, I think they all (ecvery person) deserve help or compensation on a case by case merit, those that were directly involved anyway not sure about grand kids and great kids in perpetualality.

There are other compensations being pushed for but anyway you can think the report spawned it but it was long in the wind prior to some boffin writing a report and recommendation for it.

 

[Markfs]

i'm not sure why people get so upset with paying money in these types of situations. It happens all the time. I'm not sure if it's the solution but if it is, then i think they should issue an apology and pay the money. Having said that, my guess is that isnt going to meet lumumba's needs.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Disagree he has acknowledged it as his exact words are " Nothing has changed".

The “Nothing has changed” has context.

Was he talking about Collingwood’s ability to convert in front of the big sticks? Obviously not. Was he talking about Collingwood providing a psychologically safe workplace for its people? No, he wasn’t talking about that either.

The next sentence after “Nothing has changed” was “It is our firm belief that the Collingwood Football Club has no intention of acting in good faith to achieve a just outcome for past players who have experienced racism at the Club.” …

… so he is specifically referring to addressing historical matters.

 

[loki04]

Go back and read what I suggested. It wasn’t a position. And certainly not a juxtaposition!


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It became a juxtaposition when Harry's intent was different to your position of the case being closed, contrasting over the same fact that he tried to sue and is continuing to set up for it.

2 contrasting positions over the same set of facts.

If I mis took what your intent of that post was I apologise.

 

[loki04]

Why can't Collingwood issue a formal apology to Lumumba, Davis and Krakouer like they did to Robbie Muir.

It can almost be scripted word for word. It will give the closure that Lumumba needs and hopefully mend bridges for Davis and Krakouer to rebuild the relationship with the club.

I just dont get they see the need to apologies to Muir who never played for the club but they wont to their own players.

What was the thing the whole club wrote and signed re racism?

Was an apology on behalf of all Collingwood staff to current and former players.

 

[ThePhantom777]

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[loki04]

The “Nothing has changed” has context.

Was he talking about Collingwood’s ability to convert in front of the big sticks? Obviously not. Was he talking about Collingwood providing a psychologically safe workplace for its people? No, he wasn’t talking about that either.

The next sentence after “Nothing has changed” was “It is our firm belief that the Collingwood Football Club has no intention of acting in good faith to achieve a just outcome for past players who have experienced racism at the Club.” …

… so he is specifically referring to addressing historical matters.

Yeah because the club hasn't given him money round and round we go...

 

[76woodenspooners]

His language of "just outcome" and "not acting in good faith" belies the clubs actual changes and effort to address the issues which I listed. So what is he after?

Our CEO released a statement yesterday effectively confirming Lumumba’s version of events that “nothing has changed” with regards to addressing historical matters.

Our CEO stated that the addressing of historical matters had always been scheduled to begin April 2022 (ie: around now)

FWIW, I accept that the club might have wanted to prioritize the establishment of a psychologically safe environment for current and future staff … but taking > 14 months to get to the matter of addressing historical issues seems sloppy, very very sloppy, especially given that …

- The club has already been smashed over being sloppy in the handling of these matters (ie: events leading to our President of 22 years standing down)

- Members have specifically quizzed the club about reconciliation with Lumumba during Do Better report info sessions.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Yeah because the club hasn't given him money round and round we go...

We don’t know that?

You and I have no idea whether he’s seeking bags of gold, or a public flogging of the perpetrators, or to have all the people of Collingwood throw themselves at his feet to beg for forgiveness, or a sincere apology, or whatever.

 

[HeathySure]

It seems everyone thinks that here is your apology now **** of is acceptable as a proper apology. Feels like a Jeff Kennett type one to me

 

[76woodenspooners]

i'm not sure why people get so upset with paying money in these types of situations.

Think about where that money would be coming from, and that’ll probably answer your question.

It happens all the time.

Not so sure it does.

Maybe it happens from time-to-time when a civil claim relates to a law having been broken and / or some matter being covered by insurance (eg PL or PI) but I don’t see how that applies here.

You and I are old enough to remember the world being a much more racist / sexist / discriminatory / homophobic place with no legal protections or supportive social norms. Obviously we live in a very different world today. What state were things around the time Lumumba was at CFC? TBH, I don’t have a good sense of that.

 

[Maggie Greg]

What was the thing the whole club wrote and signed re racism?

Was an apology on behalf of all Collingwood staff to current and former players.

That is not the club apologising for the many specific historical incidents of racism to the specific victims - it is just the staff at the time that letter was written.

The club has not apologised to Lamumba, Davis or Krakouer.

 

[Markfs]

Think about where that money would be coming from, and that’ll probably answer your question.



Not so sure it does.

Maybe it happens from time-to-time when a civil claim relates to a law having been broken and / or some matter being covered by insurance (eg PL or PI) but I don’t see how that applies here.

You and I are old enough to remember the world being a much more racist / sexist / discriminatory / homophobic place with no legal protections or supportive social norms. Obviously we live in a very different world today. What state were things around the time Lumumba was at CFC? TBH, I don’t have a good sense of that.

i was watching a thing about music copyright...and ed sheeran and similar..... they get sued.... they dont think they have infringed but they pay out because its easier to get back to normal.

And I have thought about the members feelings about paying out money and we would lose some members....who knows, we might gain some... but lumumba is going to live another 40 years and that's 40 seasons...

as for the legalistic processes, they dont apply. This is about perceptions. The whole matter now rests on whether the club can accept 3 indigenous players not having contact with it. Although these matters are outside my understanding, I understand the western world reality. So the club acceptance of the status quo consists of
1. whether it can accept the negative vibe of this for the next 40 years - marketing, reputation etc
2. whether it can accept it's own bad feelings about how the club acted - if there is any.
3. whether it can accept the negative effect on recruitment
4. Are there anymore?

As i said, I doubt money is going to solve this. Even with an apology. I think the guys are looking for something that isnt that easy