Discussion 2022 General AFL Discussion

[plugger66]

That is a great result. At AFL level it needs to be enforced but made absolutely clear and umpired consistently.
Should have been two certain goals to the Saints, and a 50 against Higgins for showing the umpire his wrist was grabbed when he was not given a free. Sinclair for complaining he was held in a marking contest and probably 50 others.
If this had been umpired consistently from R1 and not dropped off, this would not be an issue now.

I agree. They need to sort out interpretation. I think it’s nearly impossible for a player not to move his arms. I think that is over the top but if the afl want that then every umpire must pay it.

 

[George]

It's right now having the complete opposite effect of what they wanted to fix.
Every week it seems we are talking about umpires, often now in a much more negative way. I've never seen fans go as ballistic at the umpires than I had seen today.

No one if footy should be happy how any of that was handled.
You have a player pretending he's an airplane to begin with. Players rightly ask how something can be a free kick and the ump clearly can't handle being questioned.
Either you're paying everything or nothing. This inconsistency is just causing issues. If the AFL says that dissent is correct then they have to admit they've missed about 30 during the week.

If they don't sort it out someone is going to jump the fence and belt the ump.

It's a blight on the game. Either they get serious about how the game is officiated or they don't. At the moment it's a complete mess, never seen the media go so hard at them until this year and like you said the crowds are fed up with it too. Needs a complete overhaul.

 

[Mowman]

Having seen the GPS data of some of the boundary umpires you'd be surprised. They'd out perform you without breaking a sweat. They'd easily out perform the majority of our list.

Yeah but its not apples with apples. The boundary umps aren't competing for the ball with an opponent not taking body contact for 2hrs during a game, AFL players are some of the fittest athletes in the world in any sport

 

[StFly]

It's a blight on the game. Either they get serious about how the game is officiated or they don't. At the moment it's a complete mess, never seen the media go so hard at them until this year and like you said the crowds are fed up with it too. Needs a complete overhaul.

Everyone at the game today who booed should be banned from attending for X years as the AFL determined booing was racist did they not? This is a PC society in footy, can't have anyone making any sort of disparaging instances towards anyone employed in an AFL sense after all.

Just remove "if in the umpires opinion..." from sections in the rule book that are already well defined, and actually define what dissent is in nature instead of randomly guessing on gestures and it beign technically correct because if an opinion is formed it is enshrined as correct regardless of what actually occurred.

To me, that's core of why there's just too much interpretation on rulings, because as it is written, you can have all sitting umpires who did the match, review the match and made all those decisions, all be 100% correct despite coming to completely different results since in their opinion, they interpreted it correctly. There is no damned uniformity because opinions are numerous and ever changing. So you bring in dissent to this and all you do is "hey muddied water, here's some more dirt to chuck in" and eventually you'll have a road.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I propose a new system where a robotic whistle just blows a few hundred times at random intervals during the game.
The Umpire's job is to quickly come up with a reason it blew and determine who to pay the free to.

You...Hayes....That haircut is a disgrace.

 

[jwikked]

Can I guess none of you knocking umps and the abuse rule follow local footy or junior footy. We can’t get umpires to either. Surely you then understand the standard drops in the afl. And social media makes it even worse. Don’t confuse a good rule with interpretation issues. And I have said this today already. The abuse by players and even some parents has dropped by a huge amount this year. Hopefully that leads to more kids wanting to umpire because as much as some carry on about them there is no game without them.

You are right and your concerns about local footy are not only valid, but need to be heard more often.

My point is, this new interpretation isn’t needed at the highest level. This video is from 2014 - why do we need to punish players who throw their arms out to the side after a clearly terrible decision was made?

2014 Laws of the Game - Zero tolerance to abuse

2014 Laws of the Game - Zero tolerance to abuse

www.afl.com.au

Here is a video from 2017 (which I didn’t watch) presumably about the same rule:

2017 Laws of the Game - Zero Tolerance To Abuse

2017 Laws of the Game - Zero Tolerance To Abuse

www.afl.com.au

So why don’t the umpires continue with the old rule, instead of paying a serious 50 meter penalty to something that clearly isn’t abusive?
It’s a high paced contact sport, but players aren’t allowed to be disappointed when a whistle blows? It’s insane.

However, zero tolerance at lower levels - I get it. But it should be abusive gestures - not simply being annoyed.

 

[PostmanBish]

Worst part is, he doesn't need to do it. He's a dominant forward in his own right, without resorting to cheap tricks to kick goals.
Could say the same about Selwood. It seems to have actually damaged Selwoods standing in the game, the way he plays for free kicks. He won't leave the legacy he should because of his ducking for free kicks over the years.

Jokes aside, I worry about the number of head knocks he has sustained over the years … maybe not outright concussions but the cumulative effects of being split open every other week can’t be great.

If anything he has toned his attack on the ball down since the concussion rules were tightened, and spends more time trying to shrug tackles onto the shoulder.

 

[Hubnester]

Just watched their coverage of the rule on On The Couch and that was pretty enlightening.

Apparently the stance of the AFL is that yes, every 'arm raise' should be penalised, meaning there have been dozens of umpire errors where frees were not paid.

Personally I would prefer an arm raise or asking the question of the umpire should not be penalised, because ones like that Hawkins flop today was an absolute joke and the players should really be able to point at video evidence of hawkins having a dive and asking what happened in a respectful way. In the end whichever way the interpretation goes, the important thing is that there is a black and white rule that is paid consistently.

If this is a defined rule in the rulebook that all umpires are aware of, as Ralph suggested on OTC, that means we have most umpires not following that rule. So why is that? Do they not believe in the rule themselves? I'm sure if they felt the gesture was particularly insulting or threatening they'd be paying those frees. So does this indicate even these guys think it's unreasonable?

Absolutely penalise any form of aggression or abuse towards umpires, and do so harshly - but for me the 'arms out' rule is too far when it's typically a natural reaction of frustration or appeal. But the real problem seems to be that not everyone is on the same page which is frankly embarrassing after 5 rounds of footy.

 

[PostmanBish]

D-Mac won't flop.

D-Mac makes other players flop …

 

[Hubnester]

Also that story about the player who was seeking advice on euthanasia after a debilitating back injury ruined his life was bloody horrid. How can that happen? Sounds like a lot of players have essentially been conned into paying for junk insurance over their careers.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

View attachment 1377415

Jokes aside, I worry about the number of head knocks he has sustained over the years … maybe not outright concussions but the cumulative effects of being split open every other week can’t be great.

If anything he has toned his attack on the ball down since the concussion rules were tightened, and spends more time trying to shrug tackles onto the shoulder.

That's OK, he can still sue the AFL, they've done nothing to take self inflicted head knocks out of the game over the years.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

D-Mac makes other players flop …

Just from looking at them.

 

[Bill Mohr]

That's OK, he can still sue the AFL, they've done nothing to take self inflicted head knocks out of the game over the years.

They are too busy worrying about a player holding his arms out and handing out a 50m penalty. Get your jaw broken and they do f**ck all

 

[PostmanBish]

Can I guess none of you knocking umps and the abuse rule follow local footy or junior footy. We can’t get umpires to either. Surely you then understand the standard drops in the afl. And social media makes it even worse. Don’t confuse a good rule with interpretation issues. And I have said this today already. The abuse by players and even some parents has dropped by a huge amount this year. Hopefully that leads to more kids wanting to umpire because as much as some carry on about them there is no game without them.

The principle is 100% fine - and I agree with it - none of us want to see umpires copping a spray from players. A polite enquiry should be acceptable, and I am mixed feelings on an expression of surprise/dismay being worth 50m … the idea of 25 has some merit.

Balance, and consistency is needed though - because the level of inconsistency is what incites the fans, and generates far worse abuse from the sidelines than anything they penalise on field.

Frankly (attended 4 matches live) I’d say umpire abuse from the crowd is significantly up this year … not really enjoyable to listen to.

I’ll also add that I don’t think we’re nearly the worst-off for decisions generally, and we mostly get a fair go, but do suspect if we had a heat-map of frees which might be paid, we would get more paid in the defensive half than in forward-50.

So no, I am not supporting umpire abuse, but the evidence of this weekend is that the “solution” is a crapshoot based on the allocated umpiring crew and their feelings on the day (and yes, there should have been a couple paid in our game)

 

[PostmanBish]

You talk back to umpire? Jail. You raise your arms? Jail, right away. You react to a replay on a scoreboard? Believe or not, jail.


We have the best umpiring in the world, thanks to jail.

Imagine if we gave the HAW-GEE crew a sin-bin to use …

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

I propose a new system where a robotic whistle just blows a few hundred times at random intervals during the game.
The Umpire's job is to quickly come up with a reason it blew and determine who to pay the free to.

You...Hayes....That haircut is a disgrace.

I still propose we call him Simple. After his doppelgänger

 

[L_W_P]

Crowd abuse is way up because there's certain folks who think they are 'making up the balance' for the players who have to stay quiet.

I actually think they could seriously help the umpires with 2 changes -

1- Have a TV umpire.

Someone who is watching the broadcast and can see the 'blindside' that the field umpires might miss. They can send an alert to the field umpires to blow the whistle and award the free kick.

2- Allow the umpire to change his mind. Pay the free kick for a high tackle and when they replay the incident if it's clearly wrong (because he ****ing ducked you bastard!!) call a ball up.

The heat then goes onto the blokes staging for frees because the umpires will have to call them out on the spot.

Id also love to go to 16 a side with 6 on the bench to help with congestion and give the field umps a cleaner view of the contest but that's never gonna happen.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

 

[Mat Mann]

Also that story about the player who was seeking advice on euthanasia after a debilitating back injury ruined his life was bloody horrid. How can that happen? Sounds like a lot of players have essentially been conned into paying for junk insurance over their careers.

TPD insurance is a bloody ordeal to go through. It took 10 years from beginning my case to settlement. Denial after denial after denial when it was clear as day it was due, ppl shouldn’t have to go rhrough that, esp not when they are dealing with the actual event itself. It’s a well known tactic unfortunately. Deny deny and they’ll give up eventually, either through sheer trauma or lack of money

 

[Mat Mann]

 

[bergholt]

Someone help me make the ranking of most umpire assisted teams. It would be interesting to see how people see this
1. Dogs
2. Cats
3.Carlton
4.West Coast
5.Richmond
6. Collingwood
7. Demons
8. Essendon
9. Hawks
10. Port
11. Adelaide
12.Sydney
13. GWS
14.Brisbane
15. Freo
16. Gold Coast
17. North Melbourne
18. St Kilda

I only see Dogs, Cats, Eagles as those teams that are specifically coached to play for frees.

Bottom of the list is usually Richmond, Collingwood, Saints.

 

[bergholt]

How to fix umpiring:

• Pay them more.
• Keep the umpire abuse rules.
• Suspend players for staging or trying to draw free kicks during match review.
• Stop the commentators - Dwayne especially - from "umpiring" the game themselves and whinging if the umpire doesn't agree with them.
• Allow umpires to discuss complex decisions amongst themselves on the ground, pausing the game to make it happen.
• Support complex decisions with TV review.
• Put out a report each week on umpiring mistakes, each contest that's been deemed a mistake and why.
• Have a league table of umpires with the percentage of their decisions/non-decisions deemed mistakes, so we can actually see who the good ones are.
• Break down umpire mistakes by club affected and club benefited so that we can see if any of the umpires have a bias.
• Celebrate the great umpires, give a trophy each year or something for the ump at the top of the league table.

At the moment umpires are hated because we have no data about whether they're actually good or not, so we can project all our emotions onto them.

So show us the data, AFL.

I assume the reason they don't is because they look at the data internally and it's clear that some umpires are incompetent, and some are biased towards/against particular clubs. If that's the case then they need to fix that situation - hiding the data doesn't do that.

 

[plugger66]

You are right and your concerns about local footy are not only valid, but need to be heard more often.

My point is, this new interpretation isn’t needed at the highest level. This video is from 2014 - why do we need to punish players who throw their arms out to

The principle is 100% fine - and I agree with it - none of us want to see umpires copping a spray from players. A polite enquiry should be acceptable, and I am mixed feelings on an expression of surprise/dismay being worth 50m … the idea of 25 has some merit.

Balance, and consistency is needed though - because the level of inconsistency is what incites the fans, and generates far worse abuse from the sidelines than anything they penalise on field.

Frankly (attended 4 matches live) I’d say umpire abuse from the crowd is significantly up this year … not really enjoyable to listen to.

I’ll also add that I don’t think we’re nearly the worst-off for decisions generally, and we mostly get a fair go, but do suspect if we had a heat-map of frees which might be paid, we would get more paid in the defensive half than in forward-50.

So no, I am not supporting umpire abuse, but the evidence of this weekend is that the “solution” is a crapshoot based on the allocated umpiring crew and their feelings on the day (and yes, there should have been a couple paid in our game)

The rule is fine. Interpretation is struggling. I’ve been to 3 games this year and haven’t noticed anything better or worse but I have umpired 6 games this year including practice matches and abuse is way down to nearly boredom levels. I’ve also seen 6 kids games and whilst my concentration isn’t great at those games it seems down especially from the parents. The kids weren’t the problem at those games in the first place. This rule was brought in for kids to start umpiring again and not really for the afl. It was the look that stupid parents thought they could do as players did but 10 times worse and to 15 year old kids not grown adults. It doesn’t matter if abuse is up or down in the crowds at afl games. That wasn’t the reason for the rule. And as I said at the start just get the interpretation better. It’s actually a simple rule like the stand rule as long as all umpires know exactly what the afl want.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Can I guess none of you knocking umps and the abuse rule follow local footy or junior footy. We can’t get umpires to either. Surely you then understand the standard drops in the afl. And social media makes it even worse. Don’t confuse a good rule with interpretation issues. And I have said this today already. The abuse by players and even some parents has dropped by a huge amount this year. Hopefully that leads to more kids wanting to umpire because as much as some carry on about them there is no game without them.

All we want is common sense and consistency.
Asking the question, if done respectfully, should be absolutely fine. In the Suns game, last q I think, Sinclair didn’t even know it was his free kick - sometimes players do need to ask.

Punish the abuse sure, but raising hands in a question? And if that’s bad interpretation by the umps then they need better training in it, and not take every question as dissent.


On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[gringo2011]

The rule is fine. Interpretation is struggling. I’ve been to 3 games this year and haven’t noticed anything better or worse but I have umpired 6 games this year including practice matches and abuse is way down to nearly boredom levels. I’ve also seen 6 kids games and whilst my concentration isn’t great at those games it seems down especially from the parents. The kids weren’t the problem at those games in the first place. This rule was brought in for kids to start umpiring again and not really for the afl. It was the look that stupid parents thought they could do as players did but 10 times worse and to 15 year old kids not grown adults. It doesn’t matter if abuse is up or down in the crowds at afl games. That wasn’t the reason for the rule. And as I said at the start just get the interpretation better. It’s actually a simple rule like the stand rule as long as all umpires know exactly what the afl want.

To me it's like banning cars travelling over 25 kph on all roads because a kid got hit by a car outside a school. If as Plugger says, that it's about kids footy then it's ruining the chances of anyone wanting to play it or umpire it for a few idiots at kids games. Go fine the parents and life ban the really bad ones don't burn down the house because you saw a spider.