Training Preseason Training Thread - 2024

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Okay, so with our first competitive hitout against proper opposition getting underway this Saturday against Fremantle, I thought it would be a good idea to review how each player's preseason has gone thus far.

Having watched a lot of training sessions over summer, this is how I've seen things player by player:

(Disclaimer: this is a VERY long post and one I've been typing up across a few days now. Nobody should read it all (unless you're really interested of course) but feel free to skip to any players you're interested in to see how they've gone.

I've put it in spoiler chunks so it doesn't take up your whole page if you're not interested. Also note that this is just one nuffy's point of view - though I've tried to be fairly objective in my write-ups.

Does any of this mean much when the real stuff starts? Debatable. But I've watched training a lot over summer so figured I may as well collate what I've seen into one post).



1. Liam Ryan - Returned to training in November before senior players were required back and after two hamstring surgeries last year, he began by working away from the main group. Looked in reasonable physical shape, though after such a long time without properly running his fitness base definitely needed work. Nevertheless as December wore on he did more and more with the main group and by the time players returned in January he was nearly back in full training. Didn't last very long though before injuring his other hamstring tendon at training on Jan 15 and undergoing surgery. Was reported that he'd miss 10-12 weeks and it seems he's well on track with that timeline. Started running again in early Feb and is currently still building his running loads - appears on track to return in the first month of the season. Does a lot of his rehab work with our indigenous liason officer Chance Bateman.

2. Jake Waterman - One of the more impressive preseasons among the squad. A lot of uncertainty around the physical condition he'd come back in after being ravaged by ulcerative colitis last year, but he surprised everyone by not only returning (before he was required) in full training but winning the senior players' MAS running test in November. Had a great period pre-Christmas and hasn't had any setbacks throughout the summer. His work rate is a real highlight during match play, though appears to be battling it out with Ryan Maric at the moment for the final tall forward spot in the Round 1 team.

3. Andrew Gaff - An uninterrupted summer for Gaffy and came second to Waterman in the MAS running test - an impressive result which we've come to expect from him. Returned to training in November earlier than required. Football-wise he's been lining up exclusively on the wing and his performances during match play have been mixed - busy some days, quiet on others. Caused a bit of a stir a few weeks ago when left out of the 'A' team during match sim, though since then he's often been included in the probables team. Simmo says the wing spot is up for grabs so it's unclear whether he'll start Round 1 - my guess is that we'll give him first crack at the wing spot, but it depends a bit on the form of Chesser over the next few weeks.

4. Dom Sheed - Was in full training up to Dec 5 when he pulled up with a hotspot in his foot and was placed in a moon boot. To me it seems we're taking a more conservative approach this time around with him, because he didn't do any real training of note until early Feb when he started running and work on the grandstand stairs. At this stage he's still building back his straight-line running and looks a fair way off re-joining the main group.

5. Jayden Hunt - A very good summer from this guy. Eased back into a full training load in November after returning a week earlier than required and hasn't had any injury interruptions so far. During match sim and other drills there seems to be a real emphasis to get the ball into his hands - and his run and carry has been elite so far.

6. Elliot Yeo - Visited Qatar in the off-season to try get on top of his soft tissue issues, and whether it's as a result of his trip or not, he seems to be on a slightly different program to everyone this preseason. Often warms up with a trainer separate from the main group, occasionally sit out drills to do separate running or work on the grandstand stairs. When he is out there he's been playing exclusively midfield and looks very good - powerful, strong, dynamic. Other than a minor ankle tweak in November (which generated a lot of media panic) he hasn't been troubled by injuries so far. Fingers crossed that unlike last year, this continues when the real stuff starts.

7. Reuben Ginbey - An incredible athlete with the work ethic to match. Put on significant size over the break and has maintained - if not improved - his strong aerobic capacity in the meantime. Took out the MAS running test the 1st-4th year players did, and from what I've heard would've beat Waterman and all the senior players if he had taken part in their test. His top speed is also among the best at the club - he covers the ground extremely well. Was flying until mid-December when his training loads got wound right back - I'm assuming this was due to the groin soreness that was later reported on in January. After the Christmas break he began building again, and through Jan and early Feb he began integrating back into full training and match sim. At the moment he seems to be flying again. Football-wise I would probably temper expectations on Ginbey in his second season, still seems to be figuring out how to best use his athletic prowess on the football field. Work rate, tackling and two-way running have been his strengths from my POV. He is regularly one of the last to leave the track when the players finish training.

8. Elijah Hewett - We learned recently of his battles with chronic sesamoiditis in his feet, but for most of the summer we weren't really sure what was going on with him, other than the fact it was foot-related. Did little bits of training here and there pre-Christmas but nothing really substantial, and was rarely sighted on the track in January. Flew over to Melbourne a few weeks ago to visit Dr Sue Mayes at the Australian Ballet to try and fix his feet issues. Since returning he's been gradually increasing his training load, and at the moment continues to build his straight-line running. No clear return date yet but looks to be progressing well.

9. Harley Reid - The media hype around him over summer has been unlike anything we've ever seen with a draftee, but his work on the track has been pretty impressive. Like all draftees he was eased into an AFL program pre-Christmas and since then has mostly been in full training - aside from a light week on the track a couple of weeks ago where the club managed him out of full training and match sim. Splits his time between the backline and the midfield, and aside from his freakish strength and ability, his aggression at the contest and burst speed have been traits which I've been pleasantly surprised with. Already looks comfortable playing alongside seasoned bodies and loves taking the game on - it doesn't work every time but he has great intent.

10. Tyler Brockman - Took some time to adjust to his new club, but after a few weeks he really started bringing his quality to the track and at the moment is looking great - I'm really bullish as to what he can do this season and in the years to come. Occasionally for whatever reason will runs laps instead of doing full training but on the whole an injury-free preseason. His skill level and pace was apparent pretty early on, but something that's really impressed me recently is his agility and evasiveness through traffic. Splitting his time between the forward line and the midfield at the moment and looks a likely Round 1 starter.


11. Tim Kelly - A fairly standard summer for Kelly - he's done what he needs to and is moving well. Returned to training earlier than required, looked in good shape and was in full training until a minor hamstring strain on Jan 17. Over the next 3-4 weeks he gradually began integrating back in with the main group and match sim, and by now he's back in full training again.

12. Oscar Allen - Looking good. Returned to training in November earlier than required and after a couple of weeks wearing a yellow non-contact hat at training, he was back to full fitness (believe he had a couple of off-season surgeries) and hasn't had any injury setbacks so far. Looks to be thriving in his new role of co-captain - is regularly our leading goalscorer at the end of match sim and kicked 6 in a match sim a couple weeks ago.

13. Noah Long - Has overall had a good summer. Injury-free and looks in good physical nick - probably a bit more developed than he was 12 months ago. Has been training predominantly up forward and is often a busy contributor during match sim. Footy smarts and movement through traffic is impressive.

14. Liam Duggan - Not a heap to note from Duggo's preseason. Came back to training early and in very good shape - finished top 5 in the MAS running test. Has been training mostly in the midfield over the preseason, though spent a fair bit of time in defence during the intraclub.

15. Jamie Cripps - Looking fit and in really good touch - has completed a full preseason to date. His work rate in the forward line is noticeable at training and impressive. Kicked 3 goals in the intraclub on Saturday and often finds himself in open space as a result of his hard running.

16. Luke Edwards - Some encouraging signs from Luke. Outside of a minor hip issue which limited him for about a week in late Jan/early Feb, he's gotten through a full preseason. Has been playing a mix between wing and inside mid and showed some good signs a few weeks ago at stoppages with his evasiveness and ball use. Looks a bit broader through the shoulders than he did last year too. Was in the 'A' team in the intraclub on Feb 17 so he might actually be closer to a Round 1 start than many think - worth noting coaches have generally had a lot of patience for him in the last couple of years.

18. Campbell Chesser - Has been eased through a lot of this preseason as he deals with lingering ankle soreness but physically he returned in very good shape - came runner-up to Ginbey in the 1st-4th year players' MAS running test. Will often have lighter training days where he'll work on skills and touch instead of participating with the main group, but generally hasn't missed the higher-intensity match sim sessions or the intraclub - points to load management rather than any setback. Has been playing both wing and inside mid and has built nicely over recent weeks, showing some good glimpses at stoppages during the intraclub. Generally has been starting on the 'B' team during competitive work but continued growth over the coming weeks could see that change.

19. Brady Hough - Looks to have again put on size over the off-season - he's still pretty slightly built but it doesn't stand out as much anymore. Returned to training in November by spending most of his time away from the main group, but quickly built back into things and by January was in full flight again. Has been training mostly with the backs and now at 192cm, has been playing on taller players (Waterman, Maric) at training as well as the smaller guys. Liking his competitiveness, composure and pace over this preseason. Looks a lock for the Round 1 team if fit.

20. Jeremy McGovern - Doing what he needs to do as a senior player. Is the oldest player on our list now and naturally gets managed through some drills and training sessions, though he looks in good shape. Been really keen to move the ball fast during competitive work, was very impressive in the match sim on Feb 8. Got through preseason unscathed until pulling up from the intraclub on Feb 17 with groin soreness - though early indications are that this is very minor and I wouldn't expect it to limit him for very long.


21. Jack Petruccelle - It's been a strong summer for Petch who looks ready to take another step this year. Was managed a bit through December but since returning from the Christmas break he's been in full training. Looks stronger, skilful, is running to the right places and generally looks a smarter footballer than years gone by. Has primarily been training with the forwards but does sometimes move up the ground and through the midfield during competitive work, and has produced some good line-breaking plays on a few occasions. Looks a likely Round 1 starter.

22. Archer Reid - Hardly got going with preseason training before being placed in a leg brace in early December to fix a pre-existing left knee issue. Did very little training for about a month, but by mid-Jan he had ditched his brace and was starting to get moving again. Over the last month he's mostly just been doing straight-line running. Joined in a full training session on Feb 7 but hasn't been in main training since, so looks like the club is taking it slow with his recovery. Looks a decent size already but still lots of room to fill out his frame. No clear return to play timeframe yet but at a guess, first month of the season seems like what he's on track for.

23. Alex Witherden - Not much to note from Witho's preseason. Hasn't had any injury concerns and hasn't stood out much either, just working away. He's definitely worked on his endurance the last couple of years - finished 5th in the senior players' MAS running test. Not sure if he makes the Round 1 team although he has generally been in the preferred 'A' team during match sim. Takes a lot of kick-outs.

24. Harvey Johnston - Has shown some promising glimpses this preseason without standing out a heap - in fact he's one of the hardest players for me to pick out at training. Has gotten through injury-free thus far, though the club has managed him occasionally - was eased into an AFL program draftee in November/December alongside the draftees, and had a light week on the track a couple of weeks ago alongside Harley where he sat out match sim. Mostly he's been involved in everything though and has been lining up mostly on a wing. Has nice skills and a good side step on him. Still has a bit of size to put on and some more development to go until he's AFL-ready I think but it'll be good to follow how he goes this year in the WAFL.

25. Matt Flynn - Liking what I'm seeing so far. Has been rotating with Bailey Williams during match sim, where Flynn will take the opening centre bounce and the next few after while Williams sits up forward, and then they'll swap for a bit as Flynn plays up forward or rests on the bench. He's a big boy and his ruck work has been sound (albeit against significantly weaker opponents), but what has impressed me the most is his work at ground level. On multiple occasions he's been able to somehow dodge his way through traffic and get a clean disposal out despite his lumbering appearance, which honestly took me by surprise. Has also shown an ability to hit the scoreboard in a few of the match sims over summer. Excited to see how his partnership with Bailey develops this year.

26. Zane Trew - Contractually was still officially unsigned when the 1st-4th year players returned to training, and his early absence from the track in November seemed to suggest he'd been cut, though we later found out this was due to illness. Anyway, by December he was in full training but when he returned from the Christmas break, he wasn't training with the main group due to what was reported as a back issue. He was running well early on so it seemed his absence from full training would be short, but it's now been about a month of him doing the same stuff - a lot of straight-line running away from the main group, with occasionally some change of direction work. No real clarity on when he'll be available to play again, though the silver lining here is that because he's been doing so much running, he's been able to maintain a high level of fitness over his time away and probably won't take long to integrate back with the main group once he's over his injury.

27. Jack Darling - A bit of an interrupted preseason for JD but overall looking in good touch. Was one of the last to return to training in November, but when he did he was straight back into it - though pre-Christmas he wore a bright yellow cap during competitive work which indicated no contact for him. Despite not looking hampered at all this continued well into January, but by early Feb he had ditched the cap and was looking great, kicking 3 goals in the first quarter of match sim on Feb 2. Unfortunately in the same training session he sustained a minor hamstring injury, and since then has been gradually building his way back. Targeting a return for the Adelaide practice match which he looks well and truly on track for.

28. Tom Cole - An uninterrupted preseason for Cole, though with his previous ankle issues he sometimes sits out certain drills or has lighter days on the track. Returned to training in impressive condition, coming 3rd in the MAS running test. Was a standout in match sim on Feb 8 where his rebound and will to take the game on was impressive. Building nicely into the season.

29. Clay Hall - Outside of Harley probably the standout draftee on the track. Eased into training after being drafted with a slight back issue, though by January he was in full training again and beginning to show his quality. His physicality and ball use by hand in congestion is good, but he also has really strong pace and attacking flair which I didn't necessarily expect from him. Has started on the 'A' team in match sim a couple of times so he was really gathering momentum for an early debut before a (fairly minor) ankle injury in the Feb 17 intraclub match grounded him. Still a decent chance to be fit for Round 1 but probably less likely to feature now given his setback. Still look forward to seeing the impact he can make as he builds into this season.

30. Harry Barnett - Has had an injury-free preseason so far. Looks quite well-built although still seems a way off being able to impact at senior level. Hasn't been a standout during match sim work but generally splits his time between the ruck and up forward - often shares the ruck duties with Livingstone, Jamieson and Jack Williams for the 'B' team so a bit less pure ruck time than last year. Hoping to see some decent growth from Harry in the WAFL this year.


31. Jamaine Jones - Has looked outstanding at stages this preseason but has also been hampered by a few niggles. Was up the front of the running groups in Nov/Dec alongside the likes of Ginbey which is generally a good indication of a high level of fitness, though in mid-December he and Ginbey's training loads were wound right back. Still not sure what Jones' issue was, though after the Christmas break he was back in full training again. Was a standout in the match sim on Jan 24 with his run and dash out of defence. On Feb 5 the club reported Jones was dealing with groin soreness, though in the same week as that announcement he played a full game of match sim, so it must have been very minor. Sat out the intraclub on Feb 17 with a minor hip issue, though it seems this isn't a major concern. Hopefully we see him in full flight again soon because I think he's got a lot to offer us when fit.

32. Bailey Williams - A new role for Baz this preseason working up forward and pinch hitting in the ruck as he rotates with Matt Flynn. Outside of a minor knee issue in December, he has completed a full preseason. Still seems to be adjusting to his new fwd/ruck role and I wouldn't expect wonders from him to start off with, but I like his potential in that position. Has taken a few nice pack clunks over preseason but I still think he's had his biggest impact when thrown into the ruck where he's really dominated against lesser opponents. As has been discussed on here, I reckon he could become one of the better second rucks around the league in terms of ability to impact in the ruck in bursts.

33. Rhett Bazzo - Has been managed through a lot of preseason but generally has taken part in the match sim work. Hasn't really stood out to me during the competitive stuff, though it looks like he's put on a lot of size over the off-season. Didn't participate in the intraclub due to groin soreness and will be on light duties for the next few weeks as he's deloaded and then rebuilds again. I'm thinking we'll have to show some patience with Bazzo this year but hopefully he surprises me.

34. Jack Williams - An uninterrupted though fairly quiet preseason for Jack. Looks a bit bigger than last year but hasn't really stood out to me much during match sim and competitive work. Generally starting on the 'B' team - seems to be a little way behind Maric and Waterman in the battle for a tall forward spot at AFL level. Playing mainly forward with occasional stints in the ruck.

35. Josh Rotham - Hasn't really got going thus far. Was eased into training pre-Christmas and wore a bright green no-contact cap for a few weeks, but was back in full training by the time the squad broke off for their break. Upon his return in January he didn't last very long before developing groin soreness and having his training shut down completely for a couple of weeks. From early Feb he has been gradually increasing his training loads and looks close to re-joining full training. According to the club he's pushing to be available for the Adelaide practice game.

36. Loch Rawlinson - An injury-free first preseason for Rawlinson and he's showed some encouraging glimpses over summer. Like all draftees was eased into full training pre-Christmas but he eventually began training with the forwards. Is fairly well-built for his age and looks a crafty player - has produced a couple of moments this preseason (goals from the pocket, selling candy) which have shown there might be something there to work with. Not a huge ball-winner during match sim and it appears will start in the WAFL, but again there have been encouraging signs and it'll be interesting to see how he goes in the 2s this year.

37. Tom Barrass - Doing what he has to do, building nicely. Occasionally sits out some drills but for the most part has completed a full preseason. Certainly hasn't shown any indication of his back injury - was one of our best performers during the match sim on Feb 8 where he marked everything that came his way.

38. Jordyn Baker - Another one to return to training in November officially out of contract, though his extension was announced a couple weeks later. Has had a few minor interruptions through Jan and early Feb which kept him on lighter duties and sometimes sitting out of match sim, but at the moment appears to be in full training. Has been training with the backs and looks to have added some size since last year. Has some skillsTM and could push for a selection later in the season, but will probably be in the WAFL to start.

39. Coen Livingstone - Still a pretty raw talent, but I like his aggression and competitiveness. Has been injury-free this preseason although I've noticed he always wears strapping on his left knee. During match sim he seems to start in the ruck but also spends a fair bit of time forward when Barnett/Jamieson/JWilliams go into the ruck. Have noticed he'll often separate from the main group to work on set shots, sometimes alongside Chance Bateman. Doubt we see him at AFL level this year but hoping he adjusts well to senior WAFL level.

40. Callum Jamieson - Had a delayed start to preseason in Nov/Dec and appeared to be on a unique program - we later learned this was due to groin soreness. Was doing some unusual training pre-Christmas, often doing exercises barefoot and just watching on for many training sessions. Fortunately after the Christmas break he looked back on track, and by now is back to full training - though he still occasionally gets managed through some drills. Spent a lot of time recently training up forward and showed some good competitiveness in match sim, though with Harry Edwards and Bazzo going down with injury in the past week, he was trialled as a key back at training on Feb 21. Reckon we might see him deployed there on Saturday against Fremantle with Gov also under an injury cloud.


41. Ryan Maric - Has built really nicely into this preseason and is flying at the moment. Hasn't missed a beat injury-wise and looks a bit bigger than last season. Has still retained his speed and agility (which by the way is pretty impressive for his height) despite his added weight. As the competitive work has ramped up over the last few weeks Maric has really lifted - been regularly kicking multiple goals in match sim and gets himself involved in a lot of other scoring passages where his footy smarts come to the fore. As I've mentioned he seems to be locked in a battle with Waterman for the final tall forward spot in the side, and though both are in good touch, I've probably got Maric just ahead at the moment. A month ago I would've said Waterman though so it can easily change again. It's unclear the way the club sees it - both have spent time on both the 'A' and 'B' teams in match sim. Great to have some proper selection pressure up forward, may it continue.

42. Harry Edwards - I'm bullish on Harry's potential but the poor guy just can't get a clean run at it. Was on a separate program pre-Christmas as he shook off the last of his 2023 groin concerns, but by the new year he was back into full training. Through Jan and early Feb he looked to be building nicely with competitive performances down back - he looked an imposing size and was taking some nice intercept marks and defending well. Just as he was getting into a nice groove though Harry broke his finger during the intraclub which will see him undergo surgery and miss at least the next few weeks.

43. Tyrell Dewar - A really encouraging preseason so far. Coming off a pretty low base he's done a lot to impress with a good run at it with his body. Firstly in his return to training last year he looked to have added some size and was at the front of the running groups alongside Jones and Ginbey, so it seemed physically he'd come back in great shape. Football-wise he's shown real class in his field kicking and also up forward - has hit the scoreboard on a few occasions over summer. Still has to work on consistency but he's shown clear growth in the last 12 months and I look forward to seeing if he can start pressing his case for AFL selection this year.

45. Coby Burgiel - Honestly can't say he's stood out much to me, but he did have a minor hamstring setback in mid-Jan which would've been frustrating for him. He's well and truly back into full training now though. Has trained with the backs over preseason and is a skilful player, looks a good size now too. Doesn't appear to be in the frame for Round 1 selection, but if he can string together strong WAFL form like he threatened to last year, I could easily see him make his debut at some point.

49. Jai Culley - Making great progress in his recovery from his ACL last year. Was already doing agility and change-of-direction work pre-Christmas and has since been steadily increasing his training loads to now, where he's been doing absolutely everything (and then some) except contact/competitive work. At least, that was until this Wednesday when he joined in for a bit of match sim for the first time since his injury last year. He'll now continue to build that and at a guess is probably looking at a return to football within the first month of the season. The way he's been attacking his rehab over summer has been admirable and a testament to his impressive work ethic.




Some others who have made appearances at training this preseason:
  • Trey Ruscoe - A new WAFL Eagles signing, crossing over from Collingwood. Has been participating in 1-2 sessions a week since late November. Has been playing in a key defensive role, though went forward once during match sim and kicked 3 goals in a quarter. Seems to provide great energy to the group and looks like a good WAFL signing.
  • Jason Gillbee - The milk man from GWS has come across and joined the WAFL Eagles for this season. Has been doing the same amount of training as Ruscoe and will usually line up on the wing - is a very good runner. Seems like a pretty unique character and from what I can tell he's gotten pretty close with Harley, Longy, Bazzo and some of the other younger boys off the field which is always good.
  • Bailey Banfield - The son of Drew, Bailey is part of our 2nd Generation Academy and generally attended the lighter mid-week training sessions from mid-December through to the end of Jan. Was eligible for the 2023 draft but missed out. Trained with the mids across his time and looked pretty well-built although fairly short. Didn't look too out of place.
  • Malakai Champion - A highly rated prospect from our NGA who will likely be taken at this year's draft. Is short and slightly built but is very quick and has great skills. Trained at the same time as Banfield did.
  • Tore Nelson - Also part of our NGA. Trained with us a little less than Banfield and Champion but when he was out there was training with the backs. Looks a medium size with pretty good skills, not sure where he sits in terms of the draft though
  • Anthony Hansen - Saw him at one training session in late Jan, also from our NGA. Small and slightly built, didn't pay close attention to him.
  • A number of other WAFL Eagles have made appearances, mainly to make up numbers during match sims - new signings in James Spadanuda (what a name), Luke Yeo (cousin of Elliot), Harley Sparks; and continuing WAFL Eagles including Darby McCarthy, Jack Eastough, Ethan Hansen and Shannon Lucassen.
 
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I don't see Archer as a forward. At his best athletically and with his size if he can develop his game sense and add more intensity he could make a great forward but it is very much a big role of the dice. I do however think he could be developed as a very good tall defender, particulatly if he is moulded for it from the beginning, make his debut late in his second year and become best 22 in his 4th. He has the height, reach and athleticism to make a great tall defender, is also a great mark and has a long boot on him.

Mcintosh, Jakovich, Mcgovern, Barrass were all originally forwards. The only true defenders in our all time best talls that were always defenders were Glass and Emac.

Just on forwards and defenders I don't think people are allowing themselves to look at what a quality third tall back Maric could be. He not only plays above his size, he is a great mark but the key points are he is exceptional at reading the play and an exceptional field kick.

Exceptional field kicking from defence is an area the club is very light on for in our draftees. Of the youngsters really only Burgiel fits that mould and I can see with his run and carry as well why the club has thrown him down back. I really hope his hamstrings hold on and his body develops allowing the club to unlock his talent. Even after seeing only a bit more of him at WAFL level after juniors I actually think he is the second most talented (not necessarily best or most developed) player on our list after Harley.
If you had your way we wouldn't have any forwards..

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Holy shit.

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Makes Dark Sharks look like Brayden Ainsworth.
 

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From a Lions perspective, Chesser wasn’t a reach where you drafted him.

The Lions draft board at that spot was Wilmot, Sinn, Chesser. If Wilmot and Sinn were off the board at our pick, we would have taken Chesser.

We did rate Hobbs higher than all three, but he was viewed as a flight risk, and wasn’t a position of need.

Outside the very top tier of the draft, we draft for need as much as talent.

Not quite kent.

He was a reach for West Coast because we DESPERATELY needed to nail a blue chip first round midfielder. Like Hobbs or obvious big bodied WA mid Johnson.

We'd just lost Brander, Venables, Jarrod Cameron for nothing and it was imperative for our list we nail that selection and dont cook a high draft pick.

We then went onto draft/reach for an injury prone low accumating outside player who had very very little exposed football form. It was a risk most didn't want to take.

I didn't like the Chesser pick on draft night, didn't like it when he had his first season wiped out by injury... Go figure. I didn't like the pick when he played last year and I really didn't like it when he went on to get injured yet again.

That said... He did improve as the season went on and he's got at LEAST 2 more seasons on our list, at minimum. Only an idiot would be talking about trading him at this point. Trade for what? Packet of twisties? All the upside is there for him if it clicks.

Big season coming up, but it could turn around quickly. Just needs to string some football together and build some actual ****ing confidence on field. Wins will help.
 
In my head, I always thought Dark Sharks looks like Ben Sharp.
Just less calf.

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If you had your way we wouldn't have any forwards..

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I know it seems that way and really it comes down to how the club continues to develop and fill out the list. We already know the club is light on for key defenders and for elite skills down back. I'm sure the club is aware as well. If you look at the players on the list Rotham is basically a write off at this point barring a miracle. Witherden, Jones and Hunt all have a couple of elite traits in those roles but also massive deficiencies as well (that and Hunt is much better on a wing). Bazzo is more a third tall but could play FB/CHB in the future as long as we have more elite footskills down back. Hough imo is either a lockdown defender or he moves further up the ground.

I still hold out hopes for him becoming an Embley like tall wing but certainly like Bazzo the weakest part of his game is his kicking skills. Not that they are poor, just that they are average and we are crying out for elite kickers from defence.

As the club moves forward you have to do 3 things.
1. Sort the wheat from the chaff (who makes it and who doesn't)
2. Sort out the absolute best role for a player and where they can play their best football for the club and potentially be elite in their position.
3. Continue to draft (and the use of free agency), trade and develop to fill the holes that keep popping up on the list.

In regards to our talls we have a huge overabundance of tall forwards / rucking tall forward options. We realistically need at least one and hopefully 2 to make it. We likely still have Darling for 2 years of what are hopefully at worst years output levels similar to 2022. We also have Waterman who can realistically fill any of the 3 taller roles up forward for an extended period. He might not be spectacular and may only just make it at AFL level but he is definitely AFL level and is ready to play and developed as a forward.

The club has to be hoping that we do see some significant development or out of the box unexpected development from some of our young forward options.

I think Maric is an outstanding talent that just needs to be moulded a bit but we also need to look at the list when doing so and see what the weaknesses are and what we can do to improve as quickly as possible. Does Maric continue to show that development as a forward and become a true gun third marking and goal kicking option as a taller but not KP player. He could be as good as Gunston up forward. If that's the case you probably leave him up forward. But if he's not going to be as good as Gunston I think he could be elite from HB in the Sicily mould (without being such a campaigner of a player). So if it is an elite forward then obviously he stays forward. If it's not then please move him down back as I see an elite backman there.

Archer Reid is an interesting case and one of the few talls that I really wasn't overly impressed with in his draft year last year. He is however an outstanding athletic talent and does have a long kick. What he lacked was intensity, continuity from game to game or even quarter to quarter and lastly being in the right place at the right time as a forward. This is one of the absolute keys when it comes to someone becoming a gun forward and the real difference between a top shelf KPF and an average one or a KPD. On pure talent he was an absolute lock for top 10 last year but he had an underwhelming year.

I greatly wanted the club to draft Burgiel as a HF and the club did. Very quickly the club moved him down back. Did they do that as they didn't see him as a forward pre-draft or because of what he had shown once he got to the club? Sometimes it's a bit of both and part of development as the one area he was lacking pre-draft was the defensive side of his game.

The club has also drafted both Hewett and Harley Reid who both look like midfielders who can play half forward very, very well and maybe even more forward then midfield, we shall see. We also have Noah Long who was a very, very astute pick who has exceptional game sense, defensive ability as a forward and has genuine midfield ability but is lacking in size (both height and development) but already looks a best 22 player for a long, long time.

One thing I have noted and it's something that keeps showing up in big finals again and again and again is that small midfielders, even the elite ones of the game get bullied physically in finals (or tagged out of the game) against other top shelf midfields. Lachie Neale is a key example of this where he is an elite H+A player but probably due to the combination of size plus lacking elite speed or agility can get monstered in finals. Luckily for us with WCE young midfielders we have a lot of genuine size or very big and or explosive midfielders. This is where a Noah Long could play midfield eventually part time but I think he's better forward of the ball and a little more outside than in.

I'll give you an example here of two players and a potential development path. Jai Culley and Ryan Maric. Both midseason draft pick 1's. Now in a perfect world Culley becomes a monster midfielder who gets plenty of the ball and can feed it out to more athletic players using his size, strength and bid body and Ryan Maric becomes a 50 goal a year third tall forward. Yep there is the most hoped for and best scenario for the club. But then based on what's been shown lets give a more realistic situation. Both become third marking talls. All of a sudden **** what do you do, how do you develop that to the best case scenario for the club. If Culley can't make it as a mid but can make it as a marking forward who kicks 30 goals a year where does that leave Maric and the club. Either trying to play 2 third tall forwards plus Allen plus a ruck/forward, which lets face it is a possibility but leaves the club very light on for locking the ball in the forward half and prone to having the ball if it gets to ground being sent back towards defence very quickly. Or does it leave a scenario where Maric is much more adaptable, have a much greater scope for development as a tall and more athleticism when the club goes this kid can be an elite rebounding defender plus can keep his man accountable.

Do you try and squeeze everyone forward in their preferred junior roles or based on what they have shown or do you look at what is best for the 22/23 going forward when looking to develop a side that can challenge for a premiership? If you go down the path of trying to squeeze everyone in you potentially miss out on what is best for the club going forward and it also then dictates your draft and trade scenarios going forward. You also have a worst case scenario where both stay as forwards, that doesn't work on field for the club and either the players want to be traded for opportunity / don't make it and are then at an age where developing them for a different role at an older age has a hugely lower chance for success let alone ending up with an elite player.

I know right now that both Culley and Maric could make it as third tall forwards. We have a best case scenario which I know everyone hopes for, but you also have to look on the other side of the coin and see what the worst case scenario is. They also need to be able to get some consistent game time at AFL level to further develop. You still have Jack Darling, Jake Waterman, Bailey Williams along with Archer Reid plus the more questionable youth forward talls to try and develop and potentially keeping them out of the side. At what point do you look from a development perspective and go what is best for the club and player not only now but in 2 years time, 5 years time or in particular in a premiership challenging side. (all of a sudden we have way too many tall forwards and nowhere to develop them whilst greatly lacking in future defensive options) Working in recuitment and or development at a club you don't just look at what is right now but what is the best option for the squad, the particular player and the team in the future. You also look at what options you have for drafting in the future as well.

Now if one or more of these young talls don't become backmen we are at a point where we likely have no future FB and it's questionable what Bazzo's future role is in defence as the only thing really lacking in his game other than average kicking is that defensively he plays at best to his height, not taller. As a rebounder he can play taller or smaller but then you have a limitation where you are trying to get the ball into better distributor's hands. We know this years first round draft pick is likely another elite midfield talent.

This is a very long post and partially it is me overexplaining myself in a very long way to say this. I would much rather in 3 years time to see (also note you really can play and most teams do 7 defenders but a max of 6 true forwards)

FB Hough Barrass Cole
HB Burgiel A.Reid/Bazzo Maric
C
HF Long Waterman Brockman
FF Ryan Allen Culley

Than
FB Hough Barrass Cole
HB Burgiel Bazzo ****
C
HF Long Allen Brockman
FF Ryan A.Reid Waterman/Culley/Maric

Now if Culley does make it an absolute inside bull then it solves a lot of issues but so far at AFL level his best has looked and shown AFL level ability as a marking forward than it has as an inside mid.

That top line up looks far more flexible in regards to swinging players forward, back, up the ground and stronger defensively than the second option which leaves a hole as well as some very big maybe's in regards to both the forward and defensive halves.
 
Even if chess only ends up being a solid role player he’s settled in Perth and has a good relationship with all our younger vic country/ metro boys reckon he will be an invaluable glue type for the next gen crop
The only issue with this is that it's AFL and not country amateurs, you can't just chuck him in a random spot because he's a good bloke.

I want to see chesser do as well as anyone on the list, however everyone we delisted last year could of played that 'role player' position and some even showed better signs than him in 2023 and were cut loose

If he still hasn't showed signs at the end of the 2024 season of course you float his name and see if it holds any currency, why get sentimental over a med size mid they are a dime a dozen
 
I know it seems that way and really it comes down to how the club continues to develop and fill out the list. We already know the club is light on for key defenders and for elite skills down back. I'm sure the club is aware as well. If you look at the players on the list Rotham is basically a write off at this point barring a miracle. Witherden, Jones and Hunt all have a couple of elite traits in those roles but also massive deficiencies as well (that and Hunt is much better on a wing). Bazzo is more a third tall but could play FB/CHB in the future as long as we have more elite footskills down back. Hough imo is either a lockdown defender or he moves further up the ground.

I still hold out hopes for him becoming an Embley like tall wing but certainly like Bazzo the weakest part of his game is his kicking skills. Not that they are poor, just that they are average and we are crying out for elite kickers from defence.

As the club moves forward you have to do 3 things.
1. Sort the wheat from the chaff (who makes it and who doesn't)
2. Sort out the absolute best role for a player and where they can play their best football for the club and potentially be elite in their position.
3. Continue to draft (and the use of free agency), trade and develop to fill the holes that keep popping up on the list.

In regards to our talls we have a huge overabundance of tall forwards / rucking tall forward options. We realistically need at least one and hopefully 2 to make it. We likely still have Darling for 2 years of what are hopefully at worst years output levels similar to 2022. We also have Waterman who can realistically fill any of the 3 taller roles up forward for an extended period. He might not be spectacular and may only just make it at AFL level but he is definitely AFL level and is ready to play and developed as a forward.

The club has to be hoping that we do see some significant development or out of the box unexpected development from some of our young forward options.

I think Maric is an outstanding talent that just needs to be moulded a bit but we also need to look at the list when doing so and see what the weaknesses are and what we can do to improve as quickly as possible. Does Maric continue to show that development as a forward and become a true gun third marking and goal kicking option as a taller but not KP player. He could be as good as Gunston up forward. If that's the case you probably leave him up forward. But if he's not going to be as good as Gunston I think he could be elite from HB in the Sicily mould (without being such a campaigner of a player). So if it is an elite forward then obviously he stays forward. If it's not then please move him down back as I see an elite backman there.

Archer Reid is an interesting case and one of the few talls that I really wasn't overly impressed with in his draft year last year. He is however an outstanding athletic talent and does have a long kick. What he lacked was intensity, continuity from game to game or even quarter to quarter and lastly being in the right place at the right time as a forward. This is one of the absolute keys when it comes to someone becoming a gun forward and the real difference between a top shelf KPF and an average one or a KPD. On pure talent he was an absolute lock for top 10 last year but he had an underwhelming year.

I greatly wanted the club to draft Burgiel as a HF and the club did. Very quickly the club moved him down back. Did they do that as they didn't see him as a forward pre-draft or because of what he had shown once he got to the club? Sometimes it's a bit of both and part of development as the one area he was lacking pre-draft was the defensive side of his game.

The club has also drafted both Hewett and Harley Reid who both look like midfielders who can play half forward very, very well and maybe even more forward then midfield, we shall see. We also have Noah Long who was a very, very astute pick who has exceptional game sense, defensive ability as a forward and has genuine midfield ability but is lacking in size (both height and development) but already looks a best 22 player for a long, long time.

One thing I have noted and it's something that keeps showing up in big finals again and again and again is that small midfielders, even the elite ones of the game get bullied physically in finals (or tagged out of the game) against other top shelf midfields. Lachie Neale is a key example of this where he is an elite H+A player but probably due to the combination of size plus lacking elite speed or agility can get monstered in finals. Luckily for us with WCE young midfielders we have a lot of genuine size or very big and or explosive midfielders. This is where a Noah Long could play midfield eventually part time but I think he's better forward of the ball and a little more outside than in.

I'll give you an example here of two players and a potential development path. Jai Culley and Ryan Maric. Both midseason draft pick 1's. Now in a perfect world Culley becomes a monster midfielder who gets plenty of the ball and can feed it out to more athletic players using his size, strength and bid body and Ryan Maric becomes a 50 goal a year third tall forward. Yep there is the most hoped for and best scenario for the club. But then based on what's been shown lets give a more realistic situation. Both become third marking talls. All of a sudden * what do you do, how do you develop that to the best case scenario for the club. If Culley can't make it as a mid but can make it as a marking forward who kicks 30 goals a year where does that leave Maric and the club. Either trying to play 2 third tall forwards plus Allen plus a ruck/forward, which lets face it is a possibility but leaves the club very light on for locking the ball in the forward half and prone to having the ball if it gets to ground being sent back towards defence very quickly. Or does it leave a scenario where Maric is much more adaptable, have a much greater scope for development as a tall and more athleticism when the club goes this kid can be an elite rebounding defender plus can keep his man accountable.

Do you try and squeeze everyone forward in their preferred junior roles or based on what they have shown or do you look at what is best for the 22/23 going forward when looking to develop a side that can challenge for a premiership? If you go down the path of trying to squeeze everyone in you potentially miss out on what is best for the club going forward and it also then dictates your draft and trade scenarios going forward. You also have a worst case scenario where both stay as forwards, that doesn't work on field for the club and either the players want to be traded for opportunity / don't make it and are then at an age where developing them for a different role at an older age has a hugely lower chance for success let alone ending up with an elite player.

I know right now that both Culley and Maric could make it as third tall forwards. We have a best case scenario which I know everyone hopes for, but you also have to look on the other side of the coin and see what the worst case scenario is. They also need to be able to get some consistent game time at AFL level to further develop. You still have Jack Darling, Jake Waterman, Bailey Williams along with Archer Reid plus the more questionable youth forward talls to try and develop and potentially keeping them out of the side. At what point do you look from a development perspective and go what is best for the club and player not only now but in 2 years time, 5 years time or in particular in a premiership challenging side. (all of a sudden we have way too many tall forwards and nowhere to develop them whilst greatly lacking in future defensive options) Working in recuitment and or development at a club you don't just look at what is right now but what is the best option for the squad, the particular player and the team in the future. You also look at what options you have for drafting in the future as well.

Now if one or more of these young talls don't become backmen we are at a point where we likely have no future FB and it's questionable what Bazzo's future role is in defence as the only thing really lacking in his game other than average kicking is that defensively he plays at best to his height, not taller. As a rebounder he can play taller or smaller but then you have a limitation where you are trying to get the ball into better distributor's hands. We know this years first round draft pick is likely another elite midfield talent.

This is a very long post and partially it is me overexplaining myself in a very long way to say this. I would much rather in 3 years time to see (also note you really can play and most teams do 7 defenders but a max of 6 true forwards)

FB Hough Barrass Cole
HB Burgiel A.Reid/Bazzo Maric
C
HF Long Waterman Brockman
FF Ryan Allen Culley

Than
FB Hough Barrass Cole
HB Burgiel Bazzo ****
C
HF Long Allen Brockman
FF Ryan A.Reid Waterman/Culley/Maric

Now if Culley does make it an absolute inside bull then it solves a lot of issues but so far at AFL level his best has looked and shown AFL level ability as a marking forward than it has as an inside mid.

That top line up looks far more flexible in regards to swinging players forward, back, up the ground and stronger defensively than the second option which leaves a hole as well as some very big maybe's in regards to both the forward and defensive halves.
I can definitely see Maric being a quality third tall in defence.

I think the situation with Archer is more complicated. If we continue to develop him as a forward and he lives up to his talent he could be one of the best key forwards in the game, monstering key defenders. I think the club will keep faith in Harry Edwards for this year at least before considering developing Archer as key defender.
 
It’s always interesting to read some people’s opinion on a player, with the youngster either never played a game of AFL or maybe a handful and not physically ready yet.
How these people can form strong opinions is beyond me.
 

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It’s always interesting to read some people’s opinion on a player, with the youngster either never played a game of AFL or maybe a handful and not physically ready yet.
How these people can form strong opinions is beyond me.

It's all about probabilities. You watch them as juniors for a few years (or in the case of WA players the last 6/7) in a professional position you are looking for traits to make it as an AFL player. Particularly in the second round onwards you are just looking for 1-2 elite traits and hope that you can develop those traits and that player as best as possible to cover any deficiencies in their game.

I might have strong opinions on a lot of young players but it is at least done from someone who is coming from a professional background inside the game and who has seen all these kids play and interviewed most of them. Not just a few AFL games or the absolute shitshow that has been the WAFL eagles the last couple of years.

Players from the 2020-2022 drafts I can comment on directly and have a strong opinion on because I was there the whole time. My strengths lie in reading people and the people around them when asked the hard questions as well as data analysis. I have a good grasp of the game and what is required going forward however last year was my very last in a professional capacity. I am retired and have mostly been away for Preseason so far and will be spending at least 6 months of every year overseas so I won't have that capacity, I will be like any other person on here, perhaps with just a little bit more insight on juniors / development than others.

Guys like Keys who gets down to training are an absolute blessing for this board and he has his own opinions on the side. Guys like Monocle , Eastcoasteagle and ROYAL EAGLE provide great insight into younger players on this board and follow distinct areas and also provide great insight with their opinions. There are others as well that I have missed that I greatly respect the opinions of and I would be lying if I haven't gone back over games or spent extra time looking at certain players based off of bigfooty and what they have said. Just because I won't always have the same opinion as someone else doesn't mean I don't respect their opinion and I don't expect or want everyone to agree with me either.

I think everyone should also be very thankful of Alesana for their work in packaging up each time a player comes into play each game and providing videos for this board. I would normally vote for Keys every year as POTY for all of the time he spends getting down to training particularly during the offseason but Alesana work has been one of the biggest positives for this board in the past 12 months and hopefully going forward.
 
You're basing that statement on absolutely nothing ya silly w***er.
I'm pretty bullish on Hall, I reckon he matches the inside game of Johnson and Hobbs but also that he may have more dash to provide the inside/outside balance that the other two won't be able to long term.
 
It's all about probabilities. You watch them as juniors for a few years (or in the case of WA players the last 6/7) in a professional position you are looking for traits to make it as an AFL player. Particularly in the second round onwards you are just looking for 1-2 elite traits and hope that you can develop those traits and that player as best as possible to cover any deficiencies in their game.

I might have strong opinions on a lot of young players but it is at least done from someone who is coming from a professional background inside the game and who has seen all these kids play and interviewed most of them. Not just a few AFL games or the absolute shitshow that has been the WAFL eagles the last couple of years.

Players from the 2020-2022 drafts I can comment on directly and have a strong opinion on because I was there the whole time. My strengths lie in reading people and the people around them when asked the hard questions as well as data analysis. I have a good grasp of the game and what is required going forward however last year was my very last in a professional capacity. I am retired and have mostly been away for Preseason so far and will be spending at least 6 months of every year overseas so I won't have that capacity, I will be like any other person on here, perhaps with just a little bit more insight on juniors / development than others.

Guys like Keys who gets down to training are an absolute blessing for this board and he has his own opinions on the side. Guys like Monocle , Eastcoasteagle and ROYAL EAGLE provide great insight into younger players on this board and follow distinct areas and also provide great insight with their opinions. There are others as well that I have missed that I greatly respect the opinions of and I would be lying if I haven't gone back over games or spent extra time looking at certain players based off of bigfooty and what they have said. Just because I won't always have the same opinion as someone else doesn't mean I don't respect their opinion and I don't expect or want everyone to agree with me either.

I think everyone should also be very thankful of Alesana for their work in packaging up each time a player comes into play each game and providing videos for this board. I would normally vote for Keys every year as POTY for all of the time he spends getting down to training particularly during the offseason but Alesana work has been one of the biggest positives for this board in the past 12 months and hopefully going forward.
I think PremNo4 was talking about the Chesser discussion rather than your detailed contribution WCE_Phil, which are always welcome!
 
I'm pretty bullish on Hall, I reckon he matches the inside game of Johnson and Hobbs but also that he may have more dash to provide the inside/outside balance that the other two won't be able to long term.

I'm very bullish on Hall and have been since the back end of his U17 season. He really only has two weaknesses in his game, one of which may be permanent and the other I think will sort itself out as he develops. His decision making on his kicks can be a bit hit and miss however I personally think this is because he tries to go for too much and he's trying to make kicks that are outside of his ability to make. Secondly his touch kicking is an issue. So his short kicks can go either a bit short or a bit too far. If he plays within himself with his mid range and long range kicking I think the first part will iron itself out as he develops. The short kicking may always be a weakness however.

He is however very developed for his age and this is along with the above is why he slid a bit down the pecking order. His on field leadership and team first nature are probably his two biggest strengths. He also gets a lot of the ball and has good but not exceptional hands. I expect him to play a lot and quite early and he is very likely to reach his level of potential ability.
 
I'm pretty bullish on Hall, I reckon he matches the inside game of Johnson and Hobbs but also that he may have more dash to provide the inside/outside balance that the other two won't be able to long term.

Dunno, I like the cut of Halls jib as well, but he kicks the footy like it's got no air in it and isnt the tidiest by hand either. Unless he can change that he's going to be a limited player.

I feel like everyone on this board throws shade at Johnson as straight up copium to convince themselves Chesser was the better pick and not a dumb decision.

Johnson to this point has shown the most and will end up the best of the lot IMO.
 
If we are going to turn a forward into a backman would it be worth maybe trying waterman.
With all our injuries last year he was primed to play in the backline and we know that didn't happen because of his illness.
 

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