100,000 abortions, 560 adoptions in Australia

[freo heave ho]

not at all. To quote from wiki:

In recent years a kind of consensus among secular scholars has emerged, which might be referred to as "personhood theory". This is strongly influenced by Locke's approach. The criteria a person must have in personhood theory are one or more of the following:

1. Consciousness,
2. The ability to steer one's attention and action purposively,
3. Self-awareness, self-bonded to objectivities (existing independently of the subject's perception of it),
4. Self as longitudinal thematic identity, one's biographic identity.


in most Abrahamic religions, personhood begins at fertilisation. Because the bible said so.

Actually the Bible was written well before the discovery of the egg that led to the idea of fertilisation. The premise of the bible is that sperm goes in and baby comes out. The woman is basically an incubator- hence all references to infertility state that is is the woman who was infertile (no concept of low sperm count).

On the abortion issue- i would have no problem with allocating extra funding for counselling and support to encourage women not to abort. I would like to see less abortions, whether or not the babies are adopted.

That being said, the final decision remains that of the woman. Whether or not you consider the foetus to be human, it is dependent on its mother in a way that is pretty much unique. Thus she has to make the decision, one way or the other.

 

[milo]

you are missing the point - at what exact moment does this conglomeration of body fluids and good become a "human"?

does a single cell have the same rights as you and me? Do two cells make a human? where is the line drawn?

Is it potentiality that makes a human?

The second those cells start splitting you have a human. Might not look or think like one, but is one.

 

[otaku]

The second those cells start splitting you have a human. Might not look or think like one, but is one.

so, two cells is human then?

should a woman who has a miscarriage be charge with manslaughter?

and if it doesnt look like one and think like one, what is the defining attribute that makes a human human?

 

[milo]

so, two cells is human then?

should a woman who has a miscarriage be charge with manslaughter?

and if it doesnt look like one and think like one, what is the defining attribute that makes a human human?

Yes.

No.

Conceived by humans.

 

[otaku]

Yes.

No.

Why not? If the two celled or 200,000 celled organism is human, surely it has all the rights and responsibilities as well. If a woman miscarries, she is responsible for the loss of life of that fetus.

Conceived by humans.

What is human? If you cant define what is human, how can you say "conceived by human"?

 

[milo]

Why not? If the two celled or 200,000 celled organism is human, surely it has all the rights and responsibilities as well. If a woman miscarries, she is responsible for the loss of life of that fetus.



What is human? If you cant define what is human, how can you say "conceived by human"?

Because miscarriage is an unfortunate part of life. Miscarriage isn't abortion. Charge those who abort and assist with abortion with manslaughter and you may well be on the right track with this hypothetical line you're taking.

We are regarded as human. Thus when a man and woman successfully mate the child is conceived by humans.

If we were Grugs our babies would be Grugs.

 

[tortured_soul]

Correct me if im wrong here but didnt Mr Abbott, who has some vested interest in this i believe said that the 100000 abortions stat isnt verifiable due to the absence of statistics on this issue. As such no one really knows how many abortions take place in Australia, so how can we say that 100000 abortions take place in every year.... all we are doing is guesstimating what we believe to be the true figures of abortions.

 

[nicky]

if abortion were only legal for rape victims i wonder how many more rape accusations there would be.

 

[dee_molisher]

Abortion is evil.

 

[dee_molisher]

if abortion were only legal for rape victims i wonder how many more rape accusations there would be.

Would anyone notice. Women who make up such aligations really must be sick in the head.

 

[nicky]

Would anyone notice. Women who make up such aligations really must be sick in the head.

agree

i believe there would be more accusations if that were the only way a woman could have an abortion.

 

[The Legend]

Ahhhh...the abortion debate. And I can see that some of Australia's "finest" minds (I'm throwing mine into the ring here as well) are hard at work here too

Here's a point of view that I may have missed sifting through this mire (apologies).

Isn't making abortion illegal similar to a prohibition on drugs? We all know how "successful" that is now, don't we? Abortions won't be halted by banning it, or making it unaccessible as happens in some southern states of the US. It'll simply go underground. Like the good old days of the backyard abortions. Placing both Mother and bub at an unnecessary and very avoidable risk.

Outcome? Some poor, white-trash, hick-chick with a coathanger decides to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, and risks killing herself in the process (or does kill herself) along with the fetus. Or better yet, some well-intentioned, under-resourced, and unskilled bogan does the job for her and "murders" both Mother and unwanted mass of non-sentient tissue. Don't say its alarmist. It used to happen quite alot, even here, in the lucky country.

If you're pro-choice, then that outcome is as ugly and more unwanted than the pregnancy itself. If you're pro-life, then that outcome is as ugly as a woman's right to determine what happens to her own body, including a fetus that she's carrying.

But hey...If she didn't want to get pregnant-she shouldn't have spread her legs. Right?

 

[sabre_ac]

if abortion were only legal for rape victims i wonder how many more rape accusations there would be.

What a firm grip on reality you have.....

 

[- PC -]

What a firm grip on reality you have.....

If this is sarcasm , I am afraid there is only one grip going on

If this is agreement then I will join in and also agree with you and nicky

 

[nicky]

If this is sarcasm , I am afraid there is only one grip going on

If this is agreement then I will join in and also agree with you and nicky

i agree

 

[sabre_ac]

If this is sarcasm , I am afraid there is only one grip going on

If this is agreement then I will join in and also agree with you and nicky

So the threat that some people might start fabricating events to their own selfish purpose is a reason not to reign in the wholesale murder of innocence?

Thats not to say I agree with abortion only being legal for rape as I dont.

While we are on the topic of crying rape when there is none, I believe that penalties for that should be made far harsher than they currently are.

 

[- PC -]

So the threat that some people might start fabricating events to their own selfish purpose is a reason not to reign in the wholesale murder of innocence?

Where did nicky say that? All she said was that if abortion was made illegal and a rape allegation was sufficient to get an abortion then a lot of false claims would be made.


I dont know if she was making a stand against any thing else you may have posted

 

[otaku]

Because miscarriage is an unfortunate part of life. Miscarriage isn't abortion. Charge those who abort and assist with abortion with manslaughter and you may well be on the right track with this hypothetical line you're taking.

Accidents are an unfortunate part of life, yet people still get charged with manslaughter over them.

If the fetus is human, and has all the rights pertaining to a human, then a miscarriage is the fault of the mother, ending the life of another human. Quite clear.

We are regarded as human. Thus when a man and woman successfully mate the child is conceived by humans.

If we were Grugs our babies would be Grugs.

We are regarded. Hmm...and what is it that makes us "human"? You have not been able to define it at all.

Most people dont regard a fetus as human, therefore, by your logic, it isnt human. So what is your problem with abortion?

 

[TheBloods]

So the threat that some people might start fabricating events to their own selfish purpose is a reason not to reign in the wholesale murder of innocence?

Ah resort to the emotive argument now.

It's not murder.

An embryo is not a person.

An embryo is no less or more innocent than many other lives that humans destroy without any qualms.

 

[Smokin]

Most of the arguments on this thread are irrelevant.

The essense of the issue is defining when a life becomes a life. Once you decide, for yourself, that, the issue becomes clear.

Murder can never be justified. Ever.

All social, economic, whatever reasons thrown around in the abortion debate is irrelevant. A couple having their economic world collapse can not, and can never be justification for murder - IF you believe a life was terminated.

People must take emotion out of the debate.

When is a life a life? That is the essense of the issue...not weather or not a couple is ready to bring up a child.

Im not saying Im pro or against anything for the time being, I am simply outlining what the true debate here is.

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Most of the arguments on this thread are irrelevant.

The essense of the issue is defining when a life becomes a life. Once you decide, for yourself, that, the issue becomes clear.

Murder can never be justified. Ever.

All social, economic, whatever reasons thrown around in the abortion debate is irrelevant. A couple having their economic world collapse can not, and can never be justification for murder - IF you believe a life was terminated.

People must take emotion out of the debate.

When is a life a life? That is the essense of the issue...not weather or not a couple is ready to bring up a child.

Im not saying Im pro or against anything for the time being, I am simply outlining what the true debate here is.

Agree with just about all of this.

At the risk of repeating everything already stated on another abortion thread on this board about two or three months back, my stance on the abortion issue has changed quite bit since becoming a parent. When once I thought it was all "Pr-Choice" and that the woman solely had the right to terminate if she so desired, after being at a 12-week and 19-week ultra sound i became more aware that we need to explore other possibilities rather than simply extinguishing the life itself.

If it's a serious physiological health issue for the mother, then I still believe she has the right to terminate. Her life need not be jeopardised merely to carry that of another. Call it 'self-defense', if you like.

Similarly, if the pregnancy is a consequence of a rape, the mental health issues involved might also warrant a termination of the foetus. But then again, do we then need also to consider the mental health of the imminent father in this circumstance, or any other scenario which would see the birth of a child endanger his psychological well-being?

However, if it's simply a social issue, or an 'abortion of convenience', then I cannot abide by abortion. If a life is terminated simply to allow the continuation of a career, or the maintenance of body image, or an unwillingness of the expectant parents to have to confront parents about the pregnancy, or any other such 'non-threatening' consideration, then we have to look quite differently at the issue.

If it's just a matter of when is a "life" medically/morally/legally/spiritually considered a "life", then we as a society, or a species, need to sort out an established timeline.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Why should Australia being a rich country impact the amount of abortions?

Girls don't have abortions due to a lack of potential parents wanting to adopt.

Yeah you're entitled to your opinion but you have no say in what another female chooses to do with her own body.

Too true a high % have them because they were too dumb to know if they keep their legs shut they wont get knocked up.


I wonder how much abortions cost employers each year when these 70000+ women take time off work.

I mean is an abortion a legitimate excuse for a day off, it's not like they are sick or anything.

 

[KissStephanie]

So phil what do you propose we do, make abortion illegal?

Of course abortion should not be made illegal for a whole range of reasons, although those figures are quite daunting. Something could be done about the people are being irresponsible beforehand, and just simply using abortion as a form of contraception after the act.

 

[nicky]

Of course abortion should not be made illegal for a whole range of reasons, although those figures are quite daunting. Something could be done about the people are being irresponsible beforehand, and just simply using abortion as a form of contraception after the act.

I think you people are quick to judge these girls as irresponsible. Contraception isn't always 100%.

 

[TheBloods]

Something could be done about the people are being irresponsible beforehand, and just simply using abortion as a form of contraception after the act.

Something should be done about people making assumptions and then wanting to make restrictive laws based on them...