Player Watch #13 Clayton Oliver – UNPRECEDENTED 4x B&F, 3x AA, 2x AFLCA Winner and Premiership Player (formerly)

[Scythe94]

OK, I've removed about three pages of posts.

Please do not use this thread to speculate about Oliver's private life – medical or otherwise.

Regardless of the veracity of your rumour, or what you know/have heard, if it's not public knowledge, just don't post it.

I don't want to turn this place into Demonland, but if you can't see the potential harm that this sort of rumour-spreading can cause (regardless of your intentions), then perhaps it's best if you take a bit of a break.

Thanks.

 

[booshboy]

This is why your post count is so stupidly high.

I feel bad for getting sucked into you and your mates rubbish again.

Apologies to everyone else, I'll block and we'll get back to footy stuff.

 

[Bluelegs]

Weirdly we were better at stoppage without Oliver than with him, and that was when we were rotating Trac forward too.

Oliver is great at what he does but it turns lesser-lights like Sparrow and Brayshaw into dead weight.

 

[Crusty Demon]

I really liked the way GWS used Tom Green

12

Tom Green

Age

23

Ht

192cm

Wt

92kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.5

3star

K

4.3

2star

HB

7.3

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.3

4star

CL

2.8

4star

D

11.5

3star

K

4.3

2star

HB

7.3

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.3

3star

CL

2.8

4star

D

11.5

3star

K

4.3

2star

HB

7.3

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.3

4star

CL

2.8

5star

last season. Very similar player to Oliver tbh and Green is closing in on being as good a player as well.

But like Oliver, he's incredible at winning the footy and dishing it out, but he's not a weapon by foot. It's how they're being used and I feel a huge part of the blame lands at Goody's feet here. GWS put good ball users around Green. We had Brayshaw, Trac, Sparrow, Viney around Oliver. I don't blame the guy for taking responsibility for kicking it forward tbh, because his other options ain't much better. Goody has to find a way to utilise Oliver's strengths for the benefit of the team. That means getting Koz, Bowey, Riv, McVee, Hunter in more dangerous positions where Oliver can find them. If he ignores those options, then I'm happy to roast the guy, but I don't think Goody helps tbh.

All irrelevant if he can't get back to a healthy state of course

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

how? we played some hopeless footy without him. And he was one of our best in the finals.

He was one of the oppositions best. Collinwgwood dont win that game against us without Clayton constantly kicking it to them.

 

[Bangkok Knights]

how? we played some hopeless footy without him. And he was one of our best in the finals.
If Oliver goes, we can kiss 2024 goodbye.

From memory we won most of our games when he wasnt playing?
Even if Oliver returns it seems wishful thinking he will ever be the same explosive player of past seasons.

 

[Bangkok Knights]

I'm not surprised you confused last year with his career.
If last year's Oliver turns up again this year he's just an average player.

I also find it strange you think Trac blowtorches the footy whilst simultaneously missing Oliver being one of the worst rated kicks in the completion going inside 50.

Best player you've seen. You've never watched Robbie Flower or Ron Barassi play a full game so maybe quit with the hyperbole.

Robert Flower is probably our greatest ever player. Watched him one game weave his magic through a number of top Collingwood defenders and kicked a goal. The pies players didnt look all that surprised .

 

[danster168]

From memory we won most of our games when he wasnt playing?
Even if Oliver returns it seems wishful thinking he will ever be the same explosive player of past seasons.

nah its a myth. when you look at the fixture, we had some good wins without Oliver but also some poor wins and bad losses.

 

[schmuttt]

nah its a myth. when you look at the fixture, we had some good wins without Oliver but also some poor wins and bad losses.

Obviously if he is playing well he improves the team, but in 2023 for a number of reasons we were much worse in the middle once he came back in. I don't think his uber ball dominant style works in the middle anymore.

 

[Lord Nev]

From memory we won most of our games when he wasnt playing?
Even if Oliver returns it seems wishful thinking he will ever be the same explosive player of past seasons.

The answer is - neither, and it suits the narrative pushed by the usual suspects in this thread that a 4x Bluey, 2x AFLCA, 3x AA player is apparently a dud. It's ridiculous.

There's a ton of context to the year in terms of who was injured when, some of the poor coaching performances etc, but if you really want to look at just 1 player it works out like this for 2023:

With Clarry: 9-6
Without Clarry: 7-3

Of course, 2 of those losses were the finals where I don't really think you can put much blame on Oliver tbh.

In terms of 'poor losses' (ie - teams below us), we had the 1 shocker against Essendon in Gather Round when Clarry played, but we had the Dockers at the G and Cats losses when he wasn't playing.

Personally I think it's silly to put it all on 1 player whether we win or lose, but if you really want to look at it that way it works out pretty even IMO.

 

[Topkent]

Robert Flower is probably our greatest ever player. Watched him one game weave his magic through a number of top Collingwood defenders and kicked a goal. The pies players didnt look all that surprised .

I didn't see him so I can't compare, but the respect he has from anyone who talks about him means it's downright disrespectful to say Oliver is better than him. Especially when Flower is all class and Oliver is all hack

 

[Bangkok Knights]

The answer is - neither, and it suits the narrative pushed by the usual suspects in this thread that a 4x Bluey, 2x AFLCA, 3x AA player is apparently a dud. It's ridiculous.

There's a ton of context to the year in terms of who was injured when, some of the poor coaching performances etc, but if you really want to look at just 1 player it works out like this for 2023:

With Clarry: 9-6
Without Clarry: 7-3

Of course, 2 of those losses were the finals where I don't really think you can put much blame on Oliver tbh.

In terms of 'poor losses' (ie - teams below us), we had the 1 shocker against Essendon in Gather Round when Clarry played, but we had the Dockers at the G and Cats losses when he wasn't playing.

Personally I think it's silly to put it all on 1 player whether we win or lose, but if you really want to look at it that way it works out pretty even IMO.

I never said he is a dud and neither has anyone else. Its absurd of course. He would be among the top ten players ever to play for MFC in over 130 years. I fear that his 'lifestyle' may have taken its toll on him. Im not living in Australia but i know someone who knows about him. Would love to see him burst out of the centre pack on the MCG and kick winning goal in the 2024 GF.
Not looking likely at this stage.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

I really liked the way GWS used Tom Green last season. Very similar player to Oliver tbh and Green is closing in on being as good a player as well.

But like Oliver, he's incredible at winning the footy and dishing it out, but he's not a weapon by foot. It's how they're being used and I feel a huge part of the blame lands at Goody's feet here. GWS put good ball users around Green. We had Brayshaw, Trac, Sparrow, Viney around Oliver. I don't blame the guy for taking responsibility for kicking it forward tbh, because his other options ain't much better. Goody has to find a way to utilise Oliver's strengths for the benefit of the team. That means getting Koz, Bowey, Riv, McVee, Hunter in more dangerous positions where Oliver can find them. If he ignores those options, then I'm happy to roast the guy, but I don't think Goody helps tbh.

All irrelevant if he can't get back to a healthy state of course

Agree with all this pretty much, decent post. The issue I think Goodwin has is that Oliver and Viney cant play anywhere else which severely limits the amount of different players we can use thru there. I agree we need a vastly different mix but that would mean benching Oliver and Viney more often.

 

[Lord Nev]

I never said he is a dud and neither has anyone else. Its absurd of course. He would be among the top ten players ever to play for MFC in over 130 years. I fear that his 'lifestyle' may have taken its toll on him. Im not living in Australia but i know someone who knows about him. Would love to see him burst out of the centre pack on the MCG and kick winning goal in the 2024 GF.
Not looking likely at this stage.

Didn't say you did mate. Have a read through this thread, you'll see the same 2 or 3 posters calling him a dud throughout, it's crazy.

 

[markm106]

The answer is - neither, and it suits the narrative pushed by the usual suspects in this thread that a 4x Bluey, 2x AFLCA, 3x AA player is apparently a dud. It's ridiculous.

There's a ton of context to the year in terms of who was injured when, some of the poor coaching performances etc, but if you really want to look at just 1 player it works out like this for 2023:

With Clarry: 9-6
Without Clarry: 7-3

Of course, 2 of those losses were the finals where I don't really think you can put much blame on Oliver tbh.

In terms of 'poor losses' (ie - teams below us), we had the 1 shocker against Essendon in Gather Round when Clarry played, but we had the Dockers at the G and Cats losses when he wasn't playing.

Personally I think it's silly to put it all on 1 player whether we win or lose, but if you really want to look at it that way it works out pretty even IMO.

Agree. People fixated on last season and the current pre season Clarry issues. If you think he can never get back to his best then fine you won’t be convinced. But he’s one of the best we’ve seen. In 2021 he was in the conversation of the best player in the comp.
The fact we won quiet a few games without him says a lot about our ability to cover him rather than him not being a valuable player for the team.

 

[Lord Nev]

Agree. People fixated on last season and the current pre season Clarry issues. If you think he can never get back to his best then fine you won’t be convinced. But he’s one of the best we’ve seen. In 2021 he was in the conversation of the best player in the comp.
The fact we won quiet a few games without him says a lot about our ability to cover him rather than him not being a valuable player for the team.

Second for all-time Brownlow votes for MFC, first for votes per game - So the umps rate him.
4 Blueys - So the club rates him.
2 AFLCAs - So the coaches rate him.
3 AAs - So those in the industry rate him.

We don't know what's going to happen with him going forward, but the certain few posters always putting him down are really outing themselves as not knowing a lot about footy compared to literally the whole industry.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Amazing that we won games vs the best teams without him last year and lost to the same ones with him. As with everything it seems Nev is being his usual dramatic self. No one is saying he sucks, just like no one said hes a junkie, just that hes overrated in 2024. The club wont fall apart without him in 2024, just like it didnt in 2023.

 

[schmuttt]

Didn't say you did mate. Have a read through this thread, you'll see the same 2 or 3 posters calling him a dud throughout, it's crazy.

Again, no-one is calling him a dud.

Are TK and A11 overly negative? Yep, don't get me wrong I think some of their criticism is pretty cringe (See Trac).

But the issues they raise around Oliver's impact on field are perfectly valid. Clarry playing at the top of his game is a top 5 player in the league, the problem is threefold:

• Does he make the guys around him better? Would say in 2021 yes, 2022/2023 no
• The obvious question marks over him off the field
• Coaches reluctance (Not Olivers fault) to mix it up in the middle

None of these questions will be answered until we've had a good look at Oliver playing this year, and hopefully that starts in round 1 but looks pretty doubtful atm.

 

[Lord Nev]

Again, no-one is calling him a dud.

Are TK and A11 overly negative? Yep, don't get me wrong I think some of their criticism is pretty cringe (See Trac).

But the issues they raise around Oliver's impact on field are perfectly valid. Clarry playing at the top of his game is a top 5 player in the league, the problem is threefold:

• Does he make the guys around him better? Would say in 2021 yes, 2022/2023 no
• The obvious question marks over him off the field
• Coaches reluctance (Not Olivers fault) to mix it up in the middle

None of these questions will be answered until we've had a good look at Oliver playing this year, and hopefully that starts in round 1 but looks pretty doubtful atm.

IMO that's a game plan issue though, it's just that Oliver is getting singled out atm because of the media attention.

I would say it's the same story for Viney, Brayshaw, Sparrow and even Trac when he's in the middle. It's not just Oliver. The game style of bypassing half forward and putting too much weight on inside 50 numbers is problematic, and given it's throughout our whole midfield I find it silly that Oliver is seemingly copping it for wins and losses.

Also, literally a few posts above you a poster calls him a hack.

 

[schmuttt]

IMO that's a game plan issue though, it's just that Oliver is getting singled out atm because of the media attention.

I would say it's the same story for Viney, Brayshaw, Sparrow and even Trac when he's in the middle. It's not just Oliver. The game style of bypassing half forward and putting too much weight on inside 50 numbers is problematic, and given it's throughout our whole midfield I find it silly that Oliver is seemingly copping it for wins and losses.

Also, literally a few posts above you a poster calls him a hack.

Oliver is probably being singled out because the midfield was OK without him last year. Viney is also very one dimensional (And had a poor finals series that is overlooked), Gus probably won't play midfield anymore and Sparrow is currently barely AFL standard. I am a bit more reasonable with Trac because I think when Trac uses the ball by hand he is our best extractor, Oliver just has that role normally.

 

[Lord Nev]

Oliver is probably being singled out because the midfield was OK without him last year. Viney is also very one dimensional (And had a poor finals series that is overlooked), Gus probably won't play midfield anymore and Sparrow is currently barely AFL standard. I am a bit more reasonable with Trac because I think when Trac uses the ball by hand he is our best extractor, Oliver just has that role normally.

Sure, but that doesn't mean Oliver is solely responsible for wins and losses, it means we had the depth to be able to readjust for a temporary period. It's also being overlooked that it forced the coaches to do something different.

Viney turns 30 at the start of the season, Sparrow is a solid B grader at best, Gus is doubtful for midfield time now, Trac is possibly needed forward, but somehow there's posters here suggesting we don't need Oliver and win more games without him now.

 

[Demon 16]

If a player gets 7 years on $1m per year, he is going to be held to a very, very high account.

I lean towards thinking Oliver is a star that you build a team around. Unfortunately he’s left himself open to this discussion through his off field indiscretions.

 

[pjfairbairn]

If a player gets 7 years on $1m per year, he is going to be held to a very, very high account.

I lean towards thinking Oliver is a star that you build a team around. Unfortunately he’s left himself open to this discussion through his off field indiscretions.

Well said.

 

[schmuttt]

If a player gets 7 years on $1m per year, he is going to be held to a very, very high account.

I lean towards thinking Oliver is a star that you build a team around. Unfortunately he’s left himself open to this discussion through his off field indiscretions.

Yeah, also this.

Sparrow shits me up the wall but in reality he is a C grader and isn't going to have a huge impact on our season in a positive or negative way.

What was so disappointing in the finals was I felt our stars aside from May and to a lesser extent Gawn were awful.

 

[danster168]

Didn't say you did mate. Have a read through this thread, you'll see the same 2 or 3 posters calling him a dud throughout, it's crazy.

I have both those dudes on ignore. it's been great.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Oliver being out will hopefully force Goody's hand to change things up and realise it doesn't have to be the same old. The opportunity is there for someone to play a bigger role than expected, im excited to see what happens and think it could be good for us long term. Somene like Rivers could give us a completely different dynamic. Rather than hero worshipping Clayton and saying how much we are going to miss him perhaps look at how it could actually be beneficial.