1990 - the verdict.

[birdmanptr]

I often think what would have happen if Port got in first.

Would Port have had the same media exposure as we had.If they would have had every man and dog wanting them to advertise this and that.Would Port have got a Toyota type sponsorship and still have it.

Then would have the Crows still come in 1996 and if so where would be at know.If Port would have lost any supporters to the Crows and if so how many.

The SANFL changed big time in 91 would have that change been as big if Port got to the AFL first.

 

[FishingRick04]

Like it or not the SANFL was always doomed with the concept of AFL, unless it formed a break away league to go against the AFL early on. Part of the problem is until 1990 we thought our SANFL was just the equal of the VFL, hence the great rilvary.

I feel for SANFL clubs now because they are caught between a rock and a hard place. They still have a vested interest in their club like pre 1990 but obviously the competition and it's signifcance isn't the same, unless your club didn't enter the AFL, well then you will argue differently.

If you are diehard, you don't give a crap about AFL and will follow your club eg Wodpecker, or if you area Crow fan or Port fan, you will more than likely view the SANFL as a feeder league for the AFL.

It's hard to compare could of beens and what if's but it would have been completely different, IMO if Port was in first Norwood would have been second, which was the great fear of the SANFL, losing tow powerful clubs. In the end it didn't want to lose even one of it's great clubs and therefore has stuffed ours up due to their greed.

Simply they should have cut us lose.

I still think the SANFL missed the boat and should have tried to become a more regional competion.

Push South to Victor Harbour, brough in a Barossa team, an Adelaide Hills side and tried a Darwin side. and Let Port go all together. Through the regional areas the SNFL could have attained strength and popualrity. BUT it could have been at a cost to country footy, like the AFL has been to the SANFL.

 

[Andre]

I often think what would have happen if Port got in first.

Would Port have had the same media exposure as we had.If they would have had every man and dog wanting them to advertise this and that.Would Port have got a Toyota type sponsorship and still have it.

Then would have the Crows still come in 1996 and if so where would be at know.If Port would have lost any supporters to the Crows and if so how many.

The best way to answer that is to look at the make up of Crows supporters (not that kind, so put away your eyeliner) from formation to now.
I divide it into 4 groups. 3 making the initial supporters, plus youngsters now following as their parents / families / whoever introduced them to it - ie. Crow kids.

The 3 initial groups were:
1. Supporters of the SANFL clubs with no interest in AFL up till then. I divide this into the non-Port and Port supporting sub-groups.

2. Supporters of SANFL clubs who followed another AFL club or the AFL in general and switched to the SA 'team'.

3. Those who didn't follow the SANFL, but jumped on the Crows as a) the big SA v. Vic. rivalry or b) the theatre of national football.

Now take the alternate universe where Port got in. Which of those groups would they draw from?
1. Obviously all Port supporters. As per the Crows and 1990 Port fans there'd be a few from other SANFL clubs jumping across. As per Port pre-1990 Crows fans who stuck with them in 1997, some would have stayed with Port.
2. Similarly with group 2 - except more would have stuck, as they already where partly in the AFL camp.
3. This group would have stuck with the PAFC almost in total - as the group did with the Crows in 1997.

So a Crows in 1997 would have drawn from the same ranks as they did in 1990 from SANFL supporters minus maybe 2 - 3 thousand who had become PAFC (AFL) supporters. They wouldn't have captured that one off market the first SA side - whoever it was - was going to get. I'd have put that at 5 - 10 thousand.

So you'd still see the same numbers in total turn up to AAMI over a season IMO. However you'd see 5 - 10 k more at Port games and 5 - 10 less at Crows. The crows would still probably end up shading us for support, but it'd be something like 55-45, not 65-35 as it is now.

At least that's my best guess

 

[birdmanptr]

The 3 initial groups were:
1. Supporters of the SANFL clubs with no interest in AFL up till then. I divide this into the non-Port and Port supporting sub-groups.

This would have been the interesting part.How many people would have taken on the AFL for the hype,i would say at first there would have been a fair few sticky beaks.The key would have been how many stayed.Early success would have been a key here.

2. Supporters of SANFL clubs who followed another AFL club or the AFL in general and switched to the SA 'team'.

With Port in first i would say none would have changed.Only going when their team they supported came to town.

3. Those who didn't follow the SANFL, but jumped on the Crows as a) the big SA v. Vic. rivalry or b) the theatre of national football.

This would have been the critical fact and the most important part cause these are the ones that would be needed to have good crowds and now their kids would be Port supporters following on in their parents footsteps

.So a Crows in 1997 would have drawn from the same ranks as they did in 1990 from SANFL supporters minus maybe 2 - 3 thousand who had become PAFC (AFL) supporters. They wouldn't have captured that one off market the first SA side - whoever it was - was going to get. I'd have put that at 5 - 10 thousand.

I am not so sure i say there would have been a lot of supporters who would have sat back and waited to see how it all went.Early success would have been more important than ever and if no early success we would be no where near where we are now.If any thing i would say Port would have held a edge,What would have been interesting is if we still won back to back flags and what that would have done to the supporter base.

The sponsorship would have been interesting as Port would have had a 6 year head start on players opening shopping centres and starting greyhound races.

 

[CatchTim]

10 years on from 10 years on

Mods, hope you guys don't mind this bump, but I reckon a revision is now worthwhile.

I stand by my post from 2001, without Port's activity in 1990 the SANFL was going to remain in a state of inertia, feeling the monetary retention scheme was to be its panacea.

This was not only ignorant, but very arrogant, after all it dismissed the notion that most of the SANFL players wished to test themselves against, and within, the best.

At that stage the money available was comparable, however how long could the SANFL pump money in without the ability to generate larger sums through greater exposure, or creating new markets?

Very limited ability in my point of view.

Other media markets wanted the buy the best product, that was the VFL.

The VFL was generating fresh money by being able to create space for new competitors, such as West Coast & Brisbane. They had plans for further expansion. Hence they offered a national product to national broadcasters. Naturally that product was always going to swamp the isolated state league and state broadcast. The sheer volume of money would have eventually driven the vulnerable SANFL clubs to be no more than amateur entities, unable to retain their better players.

In time the SANFL would have had to fold on its opposition to joining an expanding VFL that was now the AFL. A position with zero bargaining power, far worse than what was available in 1990.

Port's initiative saved the SANFL.

However the narrow minded opposition opinion, driven by a few outraged individuals, was able by greater exposure to label us as 'traitors'.

Nothing could have been further from the truth.

Rather than ignorant and arrogant I believe the SANFL administrators were naive and living in some self deluding fantasy world. If you wind back to the mid 80's they had convinced themselves that they were the leaders of an anti Victorian alliance. The bravado fell apart with the inception of the Eagles and Bears.

Whether or not Port Adelaide's actions saved the SANFL is a debating point, however as a consequence it has resulted in the SANFL being in a much better bargaining position. That it has control of two AFL licenses says as much of the legal system as it does Port Adelaide's actions.

Port Adelaide's actions also staved off the possibility of struggling AFL teams being forced to relocate to Adelaide, or the prospect of games being scheduled here on a regular basis. Hell one of the SANFL clubs may have even split from the cartel and hooked up with a Fitzroy or Footscray. This coupled with the unfettered access to SA's best young talent could well have resulted in the demise of the SANFL as crowds that were already dwindling turned their attention to a national product.

The AFL would have played night games at Adelaide Oval on a Friday night (yes they would have had retractable lights in 1990) and pocketed all the gatetakings from 25k odd patrons.

All hypothetical, but since you asked

 

[240volt]

Well an epic fail on the part of the SANFL, with the exception of their bank balances - then again I think that's all they truly care about *cough* catering at AAMI *cough*.

They didn't want a strong Port, so every club except Port lost more supporters to the Crows.
They wanted the SANFL to be a step below the AFL - it's a step up from Amateur league at best these days.
They wanted to remain wheelers and dealers. Well if you count blocking anything that looks like progress I suppose they still are this. Zero input on how the game is run as a national competition. They don't do a good job getting either SA club decent time slots to show off their stadium.

Of course my real contempt and happy (for me) vindictiveness is to all the other SANFL clubs thinking keeping Port out of the AFL in 1990 would be a good thing for them. I mean really, how on earth would anyone with any sense, after 5 minutes of thinking through Port, versus a club that take supporters from all their clubs instead possibly be a good thing?!

I reserve the greatest scorn for Norwood - a bunch of cowards, going to the AFL themselves, then when they think someone else is doing it going squibbing to the folks (Max and Leigh). For those few Norwood fans who still bother to follow them in the SANFL I wonder how they feel, knowing if their club hadn't been such backstabbing 2 faced hypocrites and Port had gotten into the AFL in 1990, the first Showdown in 1997 would likely have been Port v. Norwood in the AFL?

The SANFL and other SANFL clubs got everything they deserved. If Port hadn't moved to get in back then, Max and Leigh would either still be arguing over how the AFL should bend over backwards before the first SA side joins in 2011, or they'd have finally realised sometime around 2000 they aren't the big fish they thought they were and negotiated from a position of much greater weakness, seeing any SA club start with less concessions then Port (hard considering we had the worst of any startup side) and a license fee twice the size.

That's about how the story goes Girls and Boys,by reading that we can all see the SANFL has not changed in 20 years.

 

[Powerstufff]

.....The SANFL and other SANFL clubs got everything they deserved. If Port hadn't moved to get in back then, Max and Leigh would either still be arguing over how the AFL should bend over backwards before the first SA side joins in 2011....

Exactly right. And the rest of the post was great too.
Last night I saw there is discussion about some sort of best 8 comp from the sub-AFL leagues e.g Centrals, Norwood from the SANFL would be up against the best from the VFL, WAFL etc. Had the SANFL not been so blinkered and parochial this is a guide to how the AFL could have gone back when it was the VFL cautiously but determinedly seeking a way to survive.

 

[El_Scorcho]

The verdict for us is that we finally got there. I feel sorry for Norwood and Sturt fans who were happy enough to stop our "treachery" in 1990 but in doing so have consigned themselves to a lifetime of being a club in a second rate league.

It would have been 1000 times better for football in this state if we went in in 1990 and Norwood followed us in 1997. Then every other club could legitimately see ascension as a possibility if they grew big enough. As it stands the Crows have swallowed any chance of any SANFL club growing big enough to join the AFL.

 

[Portia]

Of course, you could imagine the shitstorm if Centrals decide to try and join the VFL in a few years time.

 

[Forzaport]

Of course, you could imagine the shitstorm if Centrals decide to try and join the VFL in a few years time.

I hope they do.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

20 years ago the wall came down and capitalism beat communism. There was 18 years of unbridled deregulation and free market theories dominated. The last couple of years, socialism has come back and will be the dominate force for the next decade or two.

20 years ago football capitalism was dieing and football socialism was to take over. The swans and bears private owners handing back their licences to the AFL, the WAFC taking over the West Coast's licence from Indian Pacific Ltd. The AFL going for an association team in SA not an individual club. The draft, the salary cap, the collective bargaining agreement, annual special distributions, sharing the TV monies equally etc - all examples of football socialism being implemented to grow the game.

Will football capitalism make a comeback over the next decade or two? Free agency - freer than announced earlier this year? Get rid of the ASD's? Give the big teams the best draw and best time slot and best TV exposure? Salary cap effectively scrapped with sanctioning of more creative third party agreements? Will clubs be allowed to make their own TV deals or a change in the share of the TV $$ pie?

It will be an interesting 10 to 20 years. As Interesting and challenging as the last 20. As a club, we will need to use a fair bit brain power to get thru to 2030.

 

[Puddy]

20 years ago the wall came down and capitalism beat communism. There was 18 years of unbridled deregulation and free market theories dominated. The last couple of years, socialism has come back and will be the dominate force for the next decade or two.

20 years ago football capitalism was dieing and football socialism was to take over. The swans and bears private owners handing back their licences to the AFL, the WAFC taking over the West Coast's licence from Indian Pacific Ltd. The AFL going for an association team in SA not an individual club. The draft, the salary cap, the collective bargaining agreement, annual special distributions, sharing the TV monies equally etc - all examples of football socialism being implemented to grow the game.

Will football capitalism make a comeback over the next decade or two? Free agency - freer than announced earlier this year? Get rid of the ASD's? Give the big teams the best draw and best time slot and best TV exposure? Salary cap effectively scrapped with sanctioning of more creative third party agreements? Will clubs be allowed to make their own TV deals or a change in the share of the TV $$ pie?

It will be an interesting 10 to 20 years. As Interesting and challenging as the last 20. As a club, we will need to use a fair bit brain power to get thru to 2030.

that was very well said

 

[Powerstufff]

Of course, you could imagine the shitstorm if Centrals decide to try and join the VFL in a few years time.

I hope they do.

Please karma bus, oh please.....

 

[CatchTim]

Exactly right. And the rest of the post was great too.
Last night I saw there is discussion about some sort of best 8 comp from the sub-AFL leagues e.g Centrals, Norwood from the SANFL would be up against the best from the VFL, WAFL etc. ...........................

AFL Div 2 perhaps ?

 

[The Jaguar]

AFL Div 2 perhaps ?

Yes please! With a promotion/relegation system like the EPL. It would be a great way to thin out the number of Victorian teams in the "Premier League" and make it more of an AFL than the current expanded VFL we have now.

Also just like in the EPL teams can wear whatever they want at home regardless of "clashes". So if Port, Collingwood and Swan Districts are all in the top league, then there will be 3 black and white striped teams in the comp and clash top will be worn by away teams. If Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal can figure it out then so can we!

I like this idea.

 

[CatchTim]

Yes please! With a promotion/relegation system like the EPL. It would be a great way to thin out the number of Victorian teams in the "Premier League" and make it more of an AFL than the current expanded VFL we have now.

Also just like in the EPL teams can wear whatever they want at home regardless of "clashes". So if Port, Collingwood and Swan Districts are all in the top league, then there will be 3 black and white striped teams in the comp and clash top will be worn by away teams. If Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal can figure it out then so can we!

I like this idea.

The major obstacles would be the $$$ and the further erosion of the non AFL leagues.
Taking say a Centrals, Norwood, Glenelg or Sturt (one or more) out of the SANFL could reduce the viablity and strength of the comp.
This would also mean that the clubs vying for promotion from a Div 2 would need to be financially ready, and, be prepared for a yo-yo effect. This would put major strain on its finances and ability to attract sponsors. Of course if Demetriou and Co. want to make it happen, I'm sure there will be some guaranteed bankrolling of the newly joined clubs for say a 5 year period to get the thing working.
Worth considering at least.

 

[Powerstufff]

The major obstacles would be the $$$ and the further erosion of the non AFL leagues......

I'm wondering if this could be the equivalent of Rugby 7s or 20/20 cricket. It could grow the game if done right. It could even be played as a brief out of season comp so the teams involved didn't miss their proper seasons.
But on another note the objections to it happening are interestingly similar to why the SANFL would not get involved with the VFL/WAFL in getting the AFL going.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

At the moment the concept is for a knockout cup style competition for finalists from various leagues. It's a bit of a TV competition to fill a programming gap, developed by Foxtel and the AFL. It will not impact on current league structures.

Interstate series on cards