Certified Legendary Thread 2 x Premiership Coach Chris Scott contracted to 2026 (aka the Chris Scott volumes

[SJ]

But they clearly have driven for improvement, they've just done it in ways you don't agree with. They lost a grand final and traded in Jeremy Cameron.

That's tactical, short term improvement to the side (although you could argue that deal came at significant cost, so may not lead to ongoing improvement).

I'm talking about ongoing improvement of the philosophy, strategy, operations and the way things are done.

If anything, over a decade they have doubled down on some questionable strategies (like topping up the list with varied results).

 

[Partridge]

That's tactical, short term improvement to the side (although you could argue that deal came at significant cost, so may not lead to ongoing improvement).

I'm talking about ongoing improvement of the philosophy, strategy, operations and the way things are done.

If anything, over a decade they have doubled down on some questionable strategies (like topping up the list with varied results).

It's interesting, it was accepted almost immediately and very few questioned it. But compare with the two other high profile trades Geelong have done in recent times:

1. 2004 - Brad Ottens. Cost us two first round picks. Solid first two seasons, then became a critical member of three premiership teams.
2. 2015 - Patrick Dangerfield. Cost us picks #9 and #28. Initially a huge success, now still a win, but hasn't helped deliver any silverware.
3. 2020 - Jeremy Cameron. Cost us THREE first round picks. Didn't fire in finals. Cost us the most, and could well deliver us the least.

 

[Partridge]

But they clearly have driven for improvement, they've just done it in ways you don't agree with. They lost a grand final and traded in Jeremy Cameron.

How far back are you going? We've traded in a lot more than Jeremy Cameron:

2016 - Patrick Dangerfield, Zac Smith, Scott Selwood, Lachie Henderson
2017 - Zach Tuohy, Aaron Black
2018 - Gary Ablett
2019 - Gary Rohan, Luke Dahlhaus
2020 - Josh Jenkins
2021 - Jeremy Cameron, Isaac Smith, Shaun Higgins

Probably some I've forgotten as well. That's just the last six years.

 

[thejester]

That's tactical, short term improvement to the side (although you could argue that deal came at significant cost, so may not lead to ongoing improvement).

I'm talking about ongoing improvement of the philosophy, strategy, operations and the way things are done.

If anything, over a decade they have doubled down on some questionable strategies (like topping up the list with varied results).

But short term improvement from losing a grand final is winning a grand final, which is all that matters. You're absolutely right there's other levers club leadership could have pulled between 2016 and 2020, but that they didn't suggests they saw the problem as elsewhere. That doesn't mean they abandoned improvement. And I know we disagree on this, but objectively the 'questionable strategies' turned a team that had finished 10th and looked on the slide into one that finished top 4 four out of the next five years and made multiple prelims and a grand final. I can understand why they maintained course there, even if I don't understand why they didn't address what seems to me an obvious link between Scott's disdain for the motivational parts of coaching and Geelong's very specific kind of face plant in finals.

How far back are you going? We've traded in a lot more than Jeremy Cameron:

2016 - Patrick Dangerfield, Zac Smith, Scott Selwood, Lachie Henderson
2017 - Zach Tuohy, Aaron Black
2018 - Gary Ablett
2019 - Gary Rohan, Luke Dahlhaus
2020 - Josh Jenkins
2021 - Jeremy Cameron, Isaac Smith, Shaun Higgins

Probably some I've forgotten as well. That's just the last six years.

Cameron was just an example, as is the list you compiled, of how they've seen improvement as coming through the playing list rather than other things (that we're aware of).

And yes, you've forgotten one absolutely key contributor - Stewart Crameri.

 

[Pollywaffle]

The Cameron trade was a product of delusional thinking that we were better than we really are.
it was probably time by then to start looking ahead and keeping those picks.

 

[Drunkcat]

The Cameron trade was a product of delusional thinking that we were better than we really are.
it was probably time by then to start looking ahead and keeping those picks.

That's it Cameron was the icing on the cake to win the flag along with Higgins and Smith, but got it wrong again

 

[And_ROOS]

To be fair if a player like Cameron lands at your feet you make that deal happen.

 

[Gee Class Loco]

The Cameron trade was a product of delusional thinking that we were better than we really are.
it was probably time by then to start looking ahead and keeping those picks.

When players of the Cameron variety become available for a couple of picks in the mid teens and a swap of pick 18 or 19 for 30. You don’t simply walk away. A top 6 side with a chance to add a AA forward its a no brainer tbh.
cheers

 

[Gee Class Loco]

To be fair if a player like Cameron lands at your feet you make that deal happen.

A no brainer.

 

[SJ]

It's interesting, it was accepted almost immediately and very few questioned it. But compare with the two other high profile trades Geelong have done in recent times:

1. 2004 - Brad Ottens. Cost us two first round picks. Solid first two seasons, then became a critical member of three premiership teams.
2. 2015 - Patrick Dangerfield. Cost us picks #9 and #28. Initially a huge success, now still a win, but hasn't helped deliver any silverware.
3. 2020 - Jeremy Cameron. Cost us THREE first round picks. Didn't fire in finals. Cost us the most, and could well deliver us the least.

In this day and age of trading it seems to be assumed you get gun players in at any cost. Doesn't seem to be quite optimal to me.

A Mercedes is a beautiful car but I wouldn't pay $1 million for one.

(Note: I am a little off topic here, although I probably wouldn't have done it, trading for Jeremy Cameron is not my biggest beef.)

 

[Gee Class Loco]

That's it Cameron was the icing on the cake to win the flag along with Higgins and Smith, but got it wrong again

Didn’t help that injuries took away Stewart Duncan Parfitt and hindered Jezza and a few others when it mattered the most. But hey that’s footy you roll the dice and hope for the best result. To blame players that we bought in and not acknowledging those who we lost during 2021 is a bit blinkerEd for me.

 

[standupand]

In this day and age of trading it seems to be assumed you get gun players in at any cost. Doesn't seem to be quite optimal to me.

A Mercedes is a beautiful car but I wouldn't pay $1 million for one.

(Note: I am a little off topic here, although I probably wouldn't have done it, trading for Jeremy Cameron is not my biggest beef.)

It's the salary and special treatment that gets me more than the draft picks we gave up. Good sides are built on evenness across the playing group, opportunity and competition for spots, collective ownership, experience together and understanding of everyone's capabilities and roles. When you bring in these stars who get games because of who they are and get paid more than those who are heart and soul.. you erode part of that. Overall I like Scott, but he has something to answer for these sorts of individual-first mentalities that have crept back in to the club. The very same mentalities held the club back for a good part of its history.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

In this day and age of trading it seems to be assumed you get gun players in at any cost. Doesn't seem to be quite optimal to me.

A Mercedes is a beautiful car but I wouldn't pay $1 million for one.

(Note: I am a little off topic here, although I probably wouldn't have done it, trading for Jeremy Cameron is not my biggest beef.)

But isn’t this what TJ is saying to you though, I get you don’t agree with the methodology of our approach. Some do and some don’t but if you go down this route post-2015 and it nets PF’s and a GF appearance and then Cameron becomes available you sort of have to go for him.

Finishing 2nd, having Cameron become available and saying “thanks but no thanks”* to me seems to be wasting the strategy you embarked on in 2015. Ends up in a damned if you do, damned if you don’t scenario.

Envisage us not going for Cameron and finishing 2021 roughly where we did. The rhetoric would be why we pussied out of our list build strategy.

He’ll be good value for the club for 5 or so more years, buying us time to find a long term young KPF to lead us for the next decade, let’s face it Sav ain’t it.

The thing about draft picks is they regenerate every October and are vastly overrated by many. We gave up teen picks for Cameron. A range where of late Wells has selected Smedts, Thurlow, Lang etc.

*Have been told from a reliable source Wells stoush with Selwood (Troy) started because Troy convinced the hierarchy we should spend the picks on Cameron. Wells wanted to walk away once it was a matched bid.

 

[Down at K Park]

I’m more pissed about being screwed over having to pay for free agents. Not once, but twice. flipping joke.

And we are the only club to ever have to do it. We shot ourselves in the foot by carrying the tim kelly

11

Tim Kelly

Age

30

Ht

184cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

23.6

5star

K

13.5

5star

HB

10.1

5star

M

3.4

3star

T

4.0

5star

CL

4.9

5star

D

19.9

5star

K

12.3

5star

HB

7.6

4star

M

3.1

3star

T

4.7

5star

CL

3.6

4star

D

21.6

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

11.2

5star

M

2.8

3star

T

3.8

5star

CL

3.8

5star

trade loot into that year. If it was any other year and we weren’t carrying 3 first round picks we probably would have got him for nothing.

 

[Turbocat]

Change in ceo wasn't by choice though. But the other stuff i'll give you. First time we look to have actually changed tack in years.

Perhaps..although it's interesting that Cook is now a ceo at Carlton. And having a cleanskin that has not been key in all the machinations may be the most important change we have had in years.

Some changes are forced, some are done by choice, some changes work some do not. Plenty have changed something and go backwards in the pursuit of being better. I think Baker Finch in golf is one example.

Personally I'm ready to absorb that.

But to my first point. If there was an IPL type auction plenty would bid up high on Scott. He is a very good manager, im just not sure he is great coach as in a teacher. The next period will be illuminating as he will soon be eating the bread from the grain he has sown alone. If we have to build again thru the draft more than free agents and trades some questions will be answered.

 

[Turbocat]

I’m more pissed about being screwed over having to pay for free agents. Not once, but twice. f*n joke.

And we are the only club to ever have to do it. We shot ourselves in the foot by carrying the tim kelly trade loot into that year. If it was any other year and we weren’t carrying 3 first round picks we probably would have got him for nothing.

Having to pay? I guess we had to with Danger..but Cameron we should have held our ground. There has hardly been any reaction to the concept of being pushed to pay.. bar pats on the back for GWS. The players union was pathetic. A guy who had been on the GWS list for ten years. Now her4e we are 12 months later, and if he had of stayed at GWS for 12 months he would have been UFA. If we had not of traded for him maybe he signs long term and GWS, and if so ...the so be it. The picks we trade in themselves were not the be all and end all ..but could we have traded up with them? Who knows know.
The next three years best be 60 games from Cameron or it will be looked at in a dim way.

Rel to this thread. Surely it was not Scott alone who demanded the trade be done.

 

[PhatBoy]

It's all about improvement.

If you haven't made finals for a decade, of course finals is an improvement.

Where is our drive for improvement? Our Club's position seems to be okay with near enough is good enough.

why do people keep saying this and then whinge about trading players in etc? what else are they doing it for if not trying to improve? Just because a tactic doesn’t work doesn’t mean it hasn’t been tried.

 

[PhatBoy]

It's interesting, it was accepted almost immediately and very few questioned it. But compare with the two other high profile trades Geelong have done in recent times:

1. 2004 - Brad Ottens. Cost us two first round picks. Solid first two seasons, then became a critical member of three premiership teams.
2. 2015 - Patrick Dangerfield. Cost us picks #9 and #28. Initially a huge success, now still a win, but hasn't helped deliver any silverware.
3. 2020 - Jeremy Cameron. Cost us THREE first round picks. Didn't fire in finals. Cost us the most, and could well deliver us the least.

not disputing that he didn’t fire in finals but can you a) show me anyone who really did last year and b) tell me in what way he even had a chance to against Melbourne?

 

[Partridge]

not disputing that he didn’t fire in finals but can you a) show me anyone who really did last year and b) tell me in what way he even had a chance to against Melbourne?

So why do we bother getting star players to the club if we don't even expect them to deliver when it matters?

Ottens however did that. Repeatedly.

 

[Partridge]

It's the salary and special treatment that gets me more than the draft picks we gave up. Good sides are built on evenness across the playing group, opportunity and competition for spots, collective ownership, experience together and understanding of everyone's capabilities and roles. When you bring in these stars who get games because of who they are and get paid more than those who are heart and soul.. you erode part of that. Overall I like Scott, but he has something to answer for these sorts of individual-first mentalities that have crept back in to the club. The very same mentalities held the club back for a good part of its history.

Completely agree. You can even date when that started too.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

not disputing that he didn’t fire in finals but can you a) show me anyone who really did last year and b) tell me in what way he even had a chance to against Melbourne?

Listed among the ill players for that game. None seemingly had any impact.

The Cats were so concerned they warned the AFL they might need to make mass late changes with Cam Guthrie, Tom Hawkins, Jeremy Cameron, Brad Close and Lachie Henderson among those ill leading up to the Friday night game.

Still kicked two goals whilst crook.

 

[Partridge]

The thing about draft picks is they regenerate every October and are vastly overrated by many. We gave up teen picks for Cameron. A range where of late Wells has selected Smedts, Thurlow, Lang etc.

*Have been told from a reliable source Wells stoush with Selwood (Troy) started because Troy convinced the hierarchy we should spend the picks on Cameron. Wells wanted to walk away once it was a matched bid.

True. But he also selected Kelly, Johnson, Chapman, Enright from there or later. Why with the same guy, is it suddenly impossible to do that again?

 

[PhatBoy]

So why do we bother getting star players to the club if we don't even expect them to deliver when it matters?

Ottens however did that. Repeatedly.

why hold them to a different standard? Every person at the club occupies a spot that someone else could occupy. Is everyone expected to deliver to superstar levels? Of course not. Everyone is expected to deliver to THEIR capability. Cameron didn’t. Neither did many if any of the other 21 players, who’s spots could all have been filled by an alternative player in other circumstances. Singling out one player above others just because his peak is higher than theirs, even though they’ve all missed their peak, is hardly fair.
a full forward who’s team loses the inside 50 count by 15 shouldn’t need to be more accountable because two boardrooms made decisions of what to swap in the transaction that saw him arrive.

 

[standupand]

Listed among the ill players for that game. None seemingly had any impact.

The Cats were so concerned they warned the AFL they might need to make mass late changes with Cam Guthrie, Tom Hawkins, Jeremy Cameron, Brad Close and Lachie Henderson among those ill leading up to the Friday night game.

Still kicked two goals whilst crook.

I thought Hawkins had an overall much better year and finals series than Cameron. In the pf, Hawkins worked hard without much reward, whereas Cameron's two goals were virtually his entire contribution, one Joe the goose early I think and another in junk time. It was a poor performance by anyone's standards. If he was crook, he shouldn't have played at all.

 

[Partridge]

I thought Hawkins had an overall much better year and finals series than Cameron. In the pf, Hawkins worked hard without much reward, whereas Cameron's two goals were virtually his entire contribution, one Joe the goose early I think and another in junk time. It was a poor performance by anyone's standards. If he was crook, he shouldn't have played at all.

The perennially unanswered questions - why weren't the emergencies used then?