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He did it 3 times - just added to the list. Thanks.
20 Disposals and a goal
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I am a fan of Pendlebury's as well. It is just he has a couple of noticeable flat spots in his record. He doesn't have any scoreboard impact to speak of in finals. 75 score involvements from his last 18 finals since the stat has been recorded, and believe me, that average of 4.16 per final IS NOT ELITE. Of course that is to go with his 24 goals + assists in 31 finals overall, and that is dire. So his elite vision somehow does not seem to translate to scoreboard impact in the biggest games. And he is Collingwood's 3rd most successful of their last 3 captains. Just unlucky I guess.
Forget goals and goals assists, what are Pendlebury's score involvements minus direct goals and points, say compared to Dusty over their careers
Knowing the answer that will give you a better indication of his effectiveness
hawkman
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It is really only a stat that shows which mids also play a good portion of the game forward or forwards that can push into the midfield.
Petracca this year and Bont in 22 both spent a good portion of games forward. Moore in 22 was majority forward but had a few games in midfield which bumped his disposals up. Martin and Bolton also split their time between forward and midfield
Petracca this year and Bont in 22 both spent a good portion of games forward. Moore in 22 was majority forward but had a few games in midfield which bumped his disposals up. Martin and Bolton also split their time between forward and midfield
Noidnadroj
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People use whatever measure is required to ensure a small/medium sized forward who amongst other small/medium forwards was second in coaches votes, second in Brownlow votes, second in Score involvements (5th in competition), came second in B&F and made AA squad’s season isn’t rated elite. Whatever measures ensure that’s the outcome is what is used.
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Career since 2021, Pendlebury averages roughly 5.7 score involvements barring his own scoring shots, in all matches. Dusty averages 5.3 per game all matches once you remove his own scoring shots.
In finals since 2012(when score involvements started being recorded, Pendlebury averages 3.8 score involvements outside his own scores. Dusty has 5.6 score involvements per final outside his own scores within that period. Pendlebury played 2 finals in the reduced time of 2020, where Dusty played 4, so if you adjusted for that the gap between the pair would be even greater.
Pendlebury creates a reasonable but not outstanding amount of scores in home and away footy, but his lack of damage in finals is no myth, it is a very real deficit in his playing record. Career goal assists Pendlebury is basically level with Dusty, 0.75 per game apiece. In finals however, Pendlebury plummets to 0.48 per match, Dusty elevates to to 1.12 per match. So it is not just a matter of Pendlebury being harshly treated in comparison to a rare finals talent, his own performance in terms of getting involved in scores diminishes sharply.
None of us want this to be true because Scott is such a nice person. Do you think any of us wanted Nick ****ing Maxwell and Darcy ****ing Moore to captain flags when Scott did not? No, I would give almost anything for Scott to skipper those 2 flags and the other twerps don't. Sadly, we have to deal with what is true, not what we wish was true. Otherwise we would all be Fadge.
Except he split his time between forward and midfield - so in reality should be compared to both. You're acting as if he was a stay at home forward pocket like Charlie Cameron.
Martin came home with a wet sail and actually was elite over the last 6-8 games - which makes up a 1/4 to 1/3 of the season. His first 12 he was nowhere near elite and he missed 3 games.
Check where his goal/assist and coaches votes etc averages were at the end of round 17. Everything spiked when Richmond's season was running on fumes and then officially over.
If Martin brought some of that form to the first two thirds of the season Richmond may have played finals.
H00t
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The fact you still can’t see my point astounds me not…
Lethal was the best if not in the top 3 for reasons very much unrelated to topping the list of seasons with 20 and 1.
Great players might have 20 and 1 seasons but they aren’t great because they had 20 and 1.
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Leigh Matthews career averages.
22 disposals, not really elite
2.76 goals, not really elite
I guess he’s not really elite then according to you?
Or maybe like we are saying he’s Uber elite because he could do both. How many people have averaged that? None? Exactly.
I mean he’s whole deal is being known as a the guy who could win a Coleman and kick 900+ goals from the midfield.
H00t
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Career averages?
The thing that made Matthews elite is that he wasn’t just a good mid or good forward.
It’s that he was genuinely elite at both. As a mid he was top shelf. As a forward he was the Coleman medal winner and 9th on the all time goal kicking list. Take out one and he’s still elite at the other.
hawkman
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Matthews had seasons like 77 when he was 3rd for average disposals and 3rd for average goals (2nd played only 9 games)
23-24 disposals a game in the 70's and 80's would get you into the top 10 disposals getters for the year. (Matthews spent more of his last few years forward so his disposal average dropped)
Noidnadroj
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Murphy v Pendles v Selwood in finals:
Disposals; 26.17 v 23.97 v 23.08
Goals: 0.83 v 0.29 v 0.5
GA: 1.0 v 0.48 v 0.85
Goals + GA : 1.83 v 0.77 v 1.35
CP: 12.67 v 10.58 v 10.88
Clearances: 5.83 v 4.87 v 5.40
I50: 4.0 v 3.71 v 3.98
Murphy only played 6 x finals so it’s nowhere near a large enough data set to be conclusive … but it’s easy to see why he’d rate very highly from those 6 x finals he did play. People only remember Murphy from his later years, and not the period where he probably surpassed Judd for a few seasons as Carlton’s best player - which coincided with them playing some finals.
Pendles is an interesting one. Taking out his injured 2009 final, from 2007-2010 he played 9 finals for an average of 1.44 goals and goal assists … right up there with Danger (1.57), Swan (1.40) and Selwood (1.35) in finals.
But then from 2011 to 2023, he played 21 finals for an average of just 0.52 goals and goal assists.
From renowned ‘non-goal scoring mids’ Matt Priddis was 0.58 from his 12 finals. Neale 0.63 from his 19 finals. Joel Corey 0.83 from 23. James Kelly 0.65 from 23. Brett Kirk 0.61 from 18 finals. Cotchin 0.88 from 16 finals.
It’s a really weird finals record for Pendles to be:
H&A: 1.30 goals and GA
Finals 2007-2010: 1.44
Finals 2011-2023: 0.52
0.52 is almost unheard of for a midfielder in terms of scoreboard damage.
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Noidnadroj
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I am a fan of Pendlebury's as well. It is just he has a couple of noticeable flat spots in his record. He doesn't have any scoreboard impact to speak of in finals. 75 score involvements from his last 18 finals since the stat has been recorded, and believe me, that average of 4.16 per final IS NOT ELITE. Of course that is to go with his 24 goals + assists in 31 finals overall, and that is dire. So his elite vision somehow does not seem to translate to scoreboard impact in the biggest games. And he is Collingwood's 3rd most successful of their last 3 captains. Just unlucky I guess.
But he was very busy.
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And a great leader.
For those who think it is a bit off taking aim at elements of Scott's record....it is not so much aimed at the player himself, but mainly at Fadge, who is on record in another thread saying Pendlebury's finals record is only a fraction below Dustin Martin's. A claim even his fellow Collingwood supporters sensibly don't want any part of.
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Yes for a midfielder as they play more minutes in the midfield. That’s the whole point of the 20 and 1.
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That’s what 20 and 1 is nowadays.
Noidnadroj
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Ok …. Let’s compare him on both disposals and goals as he split time between mid and forward … oh, he was one of three players in the competition to average 20+ 1+ across the season - and avenged 7.7 SI’s across the ‘season’ which is Uber elite. Wowsers. Good suggestion to review him on both midfield and forward combo via the 20 and 1, confirms his elite status as it’s clearly rarified air to achieve that.
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Noidnadroj
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And a great leader.
For those who think it is a bit off taking aim at elements of Scott's record....it is not so much aimed at the player himself, but mainly at Fadge, who is on record in another thread saying Pendlebury's finals record is only a fraction below Dustin Martin's. A claim even his fellow Collingwood supporters sensibly don't want any part of.
But he’s such a great decision maker and damaging ball user to set-up scores and impact the game … except in finals from 2011-2023….
And I thought I found someone below 0.52 as Brad Sewell didn’t kick any goals in his 16 finals. But he had 10 x GA’s so was 0.63! The search for a midfielder to inflict less scoreboard damage than Pendles in finals from 2011-2023 continues!!
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Another stupid comparison.
Selwood played a heavy amount of finals from 19 years old. He also started primarily as a wing option the first 2-3 years. Then he played 17 finals in his 30s.
It would be something similar for Pendlebury.
Selwood still frequented Geelong's best players and hit good numbers in these early/late periods. But it's silly to compare raw averages for one player who had 40 finals spread fairly evenly over a 16 year career - to a guy who only played 6 finals, all aged between 22 and 26 years old.
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Different eras unless you really think Lethal was more than twice a better kick than players like GAJ and Dusty.
H00t
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Not even close.
You can make certain allowances for players as you suggest. But you cannot decry Murphy's finals record. He got to play very few finals but in those he did play, you can only say he performed well, without qualification.
You are selecting players you want to be good and trying to make them good even when the facts say otherwise. Then selecting players you want to be poor and trying to make them look poor even when the facts say otherwise. The facts say Murphy played well in the 6 finals he played, such that if he repeated that over a dozen or more finals matches and or was lucky enough to play for a team that could contend seriously, he would rightly be seen as an excellent finals player. You cannot wish those facts away due to some pre-conceived media fandom informed view that Murphy wasn't very good when compared to other marquee wage type players.
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Which modern day players aren’t elite that averaged at least 20 and 1 in the OPs list?
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