2013 Team

[Du_key]

Hey all here's my best 22 (lines for the hell of it!)

F Green Lisle Rocky
HF Bewick Browny Zorko
C Rich Black Raines
HB Hanley Merrett Adcock
B Golby Goose Patfull
R Leuey Moloney Redden
Int Beams Polec Lester McKeever

However much it sucks to put Rockhead out of the middle I think he'll be forward as much if not more than last year. That type of player is a nightmare for small defenders as generally they are dealing with a short burst running type of player. In this position you can't match him up with a midfielder as it's easy for a coach to get sucked into all of a sudden being 0.3 to 0.4 (made that up but at a guess) down on rotations.

If the opp coach has a defender available to run with Rocky up forward then you replace Bewick with Beams and switch the two. Up against a smaller backline you can replace Lisle with McGrath.

On a semi-tangent, i've got a thought in my head that any team that works out how to successfully tire the shit out of defenders with a mosquito fleet front of centre, has a amazing AA ruck and a great second ruck that can rest in the backline will win the flag. Sounds silly, but if the team was completely set on having 1500m runners they'd be be no player the FB could target so you couldn't play too tall. Then the rucks could float forward in close to a 1 on 1 contest where possible. Ha, works in NBA13!

 

[Grimreepah]

While there has been a divergence of opinion on the make up of the 2013 team there is general agreement on the improved squad depth that Voss has at his disposal. The rotation policy of the Australian cricket team is not well liked but I wonder if we might see the Lions rest and rotate players this year.

There are a number of players who could share a position over the course of 2013. For example, Docherty, Harwood, Yeo could split games on the HB and Polec, Mayes, Bewick, Karnezis at HF. Then you have any number of combinations in the midfield even to the extent of resting Simon Black periodically (each 4/5 weeks?) rather than say subbing him. The options on offer to Voss are considerable.

A rotation policy may help us run out matches and the season stronger with what is still a young team and get games into younger players such as Yeo who may not be best 22 (yet) but may mean we do not always have our best 22 on form on the field.

Would/should Voss consider rotating players /games?

It's an interesting comparison HPLion. The policy of AFL clubs seems to be more reactive, where a player might get rested with 'general soreness' if they need to freshen up. Whereas the cricketers' policy is more pre-emptive in that the player might be feeling great, but there is more focus on the potential impact of the schedule. There also seems to be a greater emphasis on the importance of continuity in footy.

The sub rule has supposedly put more strain on players' bodies as they adjust their running loads, but it has also created the opportunity to rest players as the sub. My current thinking is that the sub role isn't being utilised as well as it could. It tends to be given to younger players, but it's hard to do much in a quarter of footy, and they often find themselves in the reserves the next week. Using it to rest the older players might be better for all concerned.

 

[dlanod]

Just about everyone has Maguire locked in (no pun intended) at CHB. Think as it reaches the end of his career he is full back or nowhere. As above if McKeever or Clarke can develop into CHB this year, this would add the greater mobility the position demands, leaving Maguire as basically backup if Merrett gets injured. Or if Brown/our ruck stocks go down and Merret is needed up forward.

I think that the CHB and FB roles are very fluid, at least in our team. It really goes by match-ups rather than where they are named on the field. Assuming all play down back, Maguire or Patfull will be around that position but it really depends on who's playing there for the opposition.

interesting that not many people have doc in their best 22's

if ever there was a perfect replacement for drummond its him and the fact he can play in the midifield to

and he also lets hanley play more midfield when at half back which can only be a good thing

He wasn't really pushing for selection last year, and at this point of the pre-season that's all I feel we can go off. Dumping him straight into the seniors based off potential is something the club seems to avoid, as they're a lot more willing to play high draft picks in the seconds unlike a lot of the Melbourne clubs. All these hypothetical teams are going to change once we start seeing NAB Cup form.

"Ben Hudson’s departure also means Simon Black reclaims his mantle as the Club’s oldest player (33), while rookie recruit Nick Hayes is the Lions’ youngest having only turned 18 last month."

Not often a player is the oldest at a club, then not oldest, then oldest again...

 

[Quigley]

I think they will give games to Clarke and McKeever next season and probably quite a few but I am pretty sure that barring injury we wills start with Merrett, Maguire and Patfull. They vary enough to cover most forward combinations.

 

[iBeng]

I think they will give games to Clarke and McKeever next season and probably quite a few but I am pretty sure that barring injury we wills start with Merrett, Maguire and Patfull. They vary enough to cover most forward combinations.

Pafull especially, he played on Walker in our match against Adelaide last year after Maguire went down and held his own really well.

Which is more impressive when you see how many people have already put Walker down as the Coleman winner/dominate Forward next year.

 

[POBT]

I think Voss applied a kind of rotation policy last year when he moved young guys in and out of the side based on their wellness. From his comments over the off-season, it seems that he is focusing on getting a more settled group in 2013. Having said that, how does he then balance the fact that we have a lot of blokes on a similar level on the fringe of selection? Hopefully, injuries don't force his hand but rather he can use form and team fit to guide selection.

 

[dlanod]

I think Voss applied a kind of rotation policy last year when he moved young guys in and out of the side based on their wellness. From his comments over the off-season, it seems that he is focusing on getting a more settled group in 2013. Having said that, how does he then balance the fact that we have a lot of blokes on a similar level on the fringe of selection? Hopefully, injuries don't force his hand but rather he can use form and team fit to guide selection.

I'm expecting form to become a lot bigger deal, but also how players fit into what Voss views as the team's structures.

 

[Ray Button]

Going through our senior list (plus Bartlett), I've got 17 musts:

Patfull Merrett Golby
Adcock Maguire Hanley
Rich Redden Rockliff
Zorko Brown ???
Bewick ??? McGrath
Leuenberger Moloney Raines
Int: Black ??? ??? ???

I've then got another 14 maybes, for reasons ranging from injury to role to fitness to competition for slots. All have been at least regulars in the seniors at different points:

Polkinghorne
Staker
Cornelius
Banfield
Lisle
Harwood
Beams
Karnezis
Green
Lester
Polec
Yeo
Crisp
Martin

And then the remaining nine, squeezed out either due to competition for slots (McKeever and Longer), injury to a fringe player (O'Brien) or yet to debut so no form line yet:

McKeever
O'Brien
Bartlett
Longer
Docherty
Wearden
Mayes
Paparone
Close

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Pretty fair analysis dlanod. I like your approach.

I mostly agree, but given the depth I'd be a little more harsh on the 'musts' and exclude Golby, Macguire and Bewick. Chances are they'll be there but not before some spirited competition from the 'maybes' and even the 'squeezed'. At this stage I'd even give at least five of the nine 'squeezed' half a chance of getting into the team early on (McKeever, Bartlett, Longer, Dochety & Mayes).

There's going to be some very tough competition for those 5 to 8 open positions in the 22!

 

[pauldrc]

He wasn't really pushing for selection last year, and at this point of the pre-season that's all I feel we can go off. Dumping him straight into the seniors based off potential is something the club seems to avoid, as they're a lot more willing to play high draft picks in the seconds unlike a lot of the Melbourne clubs.

I thought he was actually pretty close to selection for the last few rounds, and probably unlucky to miss out?

I certainly recall thinking as much, and hoping (for DT selfish reasons only) that he didn't debut....

 

[dlanod]

Pretty fair analysis dlanod. I like your approach.

I mostly agree, but given the depth I'd be a little more harsh on the 'musts' and exclude Golby, Macguire and Bewick. Chances are they'll be there but not before some spirited competition from the 'maybes' and even the 'squeezed'. At this stage I'd even give at least five of the nine 'squeezed' half a chance of getting into the team early on (McKeever, Bartlett, Longer, Dochety & Mayes).

There's going to be some very tough competition for those 5 to 8 open positions in the 22!

It's a difference in approach - that post was written as I expect the club to pick the team. I would be absolutely astounded if Maguire is omitted due to anything other than injury. Golby was very solid and was generally considered an automatic selection last year. Bewick is borderline but was given plenty of chances, so now that he's actually showing promise I'd expect him to hold his spot.

Personally I'd love to get Polec and Karnezis in there, but that's how I'd pick the team rather than what I expect the team to be.

 

[Davo75]

Hi all,

I really don't know a heap about your list and the breakdown of player type.

If you could add thoughts / help me with a depth chart for Brisbane it would be much appreciated.

KEY

1 - Key Forward
2 - Medium Forward
3 - Small Forward
4 - Key Defender
5 - Medium Defender
6 - Small Defender
7 - Inside Mid
8 - Outside Mid
9 - Dual Mid
10 - Ruck
11 - Utility / Other

Adcock - 5
Banfield - 7
Bartlett - ?
Beams - 3
Bewick - 3
Black - 9
Bourke - ?
Brown - 1
Clarke - 4
Close - ?
Cornelius -2
Crisp -5
Docherty -8
Golby -5
Green -3
Hanley -5
Harwood -6
Hayes -?
Karnezis -2
Lester - 5
Leuenberger -10
Lisle -2
Longer -10
Maguire - 4
Martin -10
Mayes -8
McGrath - 3
McKeever - 4
Merrett - 4
Michael - 10
Moloney - 9
Newell - ?
O'Brien - 8
Paparone - ?
Patfull - 4
Polec - 8
Polkinghorne - 7
Raines - 8
Redden - 9
Rich - 9
Rockliff - 11
Staker - 2
Weardon - 5
Wrigley - 5
Yeo - 5
Zorko - 3

I really appreciate some of the information already gained from this thread, thanks

 

[Haso]

• Barlett is being earmarked as a small forward, at least initially.
• Close and Bourke will be key forward projects.
• Hayes should start his career as a medium foward.
• Newell may start his career, if at all, as a run with mid. He is the best distance runner at the Lions.
• Paparone will be a link man between the defenders and the forwards, working off of the half forward line, the half back line, or maybe the wings.

These are only preliminary, especially for the new recruits, but I hope you found it helpful.

 

[Fatcat08]

I would be making the following adjustments if it was my list

Banfield - small forward, has barely played mid, certainly not inside mid
Beams - inside mid or utility mid
Bewick - medium forward/ other
Crisp - medium forward/utility i would say
Docherty - defender at this stage - mid probably, maybe small
Lisle - I would have him as a key forward
Mayes - initially I would imagine him as a medium forward/utility. Mid possibly later
Michael - personally I think utility/key forward
Moloney - would have him as an inside mid
Staker - utility

sure there may be a few more the those are my thoughts.

 

[Grimreepah]

KEY

1 - Key Forward
2 - Medium Forward
3 - Small Forward
4 - Key Defender
5 - Medium Defender
6 - Small Defender
7 - Inside Mid
8 - Outside Mid
9 - Dual Mid
10 - Ruck
11 - Utility / Other

IMO:

Adcock - 5 6
Banfield - 7 3
Bartlett - ? 3
Beams - 3 (and 9)
Bewick - 3 2 and 8
Black - 9
Bourke - ? 1
Brown - 1
Clarke - 4
Close - ? 1
Cornelius - 2
Crisp - 5 9 and 3
Docherty - 8 6
Golby - 5 6
Green - 3 (and 7)
Hanley - 5 6 and 8
Harwood - 6
Hayes - ? 2
Karnezis - 2 (and 8)
Lester - 5 (, 2, 7 and 11)
Leuenberger -10
Lisle - 2 1
Longer - 10
Maguire - 4
Martin - 10 (and 1 and 4)
Mayes - 8 2
McGrath - 3 2
McKeever - 4
Merrett - 4 (and 1)
Michael - 10 (and 1)
Moloney - 9 7
Newell - ? 8
O'Brien - 8 (, 3 and 6)
Paparone - ? 2 and 11
Patfull - 4
Polec - 8
Polkinghorne - 7 (and 2)
Raines - 8 7
Redden - 9
Rich - 9
Rockliff - 11 2 and 9
Staker - 2 (1, 4 and 11)
Weardon - 5 11
Wrigley - 5
Yeo - 5
Zorko - 3 (and 9)

 

[lionshine]

B Golby Maguire Patfull
HB Adcock Merrett Docherty
C Rich Rockliff Hanley
HF McGrath Brown Zorko
F Bewick Martin Green
R Leuenberger Moloney Raines
I Black Beams Redden
S Staker
E Lester Polec Polkinghorne

Yeo, Harwood and Crisp just missing out.

I have probably missed somebody so let me know if I have. This would be my team for Round 1 next year. I was really keen to have Lester in the side but I could not fit him in. Harwood, Polec and Yeo are three players who I would also prefer to have in the side but they are squeezed out. They will play a lot of games though IMO next year.

 

[Bert Man]

B Golby Maguire Patfull
HB Adcock Merrett Docherty
C Rich Rockliff Hanley
HF McGrath Brown Zorko
F Bewick Martin Green
R Leuenberger Moloney Raines
I Black Beams Redden
S Staker
E Lester Polec Polkinghorne

Yeo, Harwood and Crisp just missing out.

I have probably missed somebody so let me know if I have. This would be my team for Round 1 next year. I was really keen to have Lester in the side but I could not fit him in. Harwood, Polec and Yeo are three players who I would also prefer to have in the side but they are squeezed out. They will play a lot of games though IMO next year.

Swap Ash for Polec and Lester for Staker. Otherwise it's spot on IMO.

 

[wantok]

B Golby Maguire Patfull
HB Adcock Merrett Docherty
C Rich Rockliff Hanley
HF McGrath Brown Zorko
F Bewick Martin Green
R Leuenberger Moloney Raines
I Black Beams Redden
S Staker
E Lester Polec Polkinghorne

Yeo, Harwood and Crisp just missing out.

I have probably missed somebody so let me know if I have. This would be my team for Round 1 next year. I was really keen to have Lester in the side but I could not fit him in. Harwood, Polec and Yeo are three players who I would also prefer to have in the side but they are squeezed out. They will play a lot of games though IMO next year.

Like your work. My team is:

Patfull Maguire Adcock

Docherty Merrett Golby

Hanley Rich Zorko

Bewick Brown Mcgrath

Rockliff Martin Green

Luenberger Moloney Redden

IC Black Beams Raines Sub Karnezis or Yeo

First choice emergencies.. Lisle,Crisp,Staker,Longer,Polec,Harwood,Lester,Polkinghorne,Mayes.

I see quite a few players in front of Lester in the longer term so I will have to disagree with that comment but otherwise we are looking at the same group. I particularly want to see Merret at CHB for the extra run and he's a better match up on the big guns than Goose or Patfull who is really a third tall defender.

 

[Lace Out]

I think we can anticipate to see a lot more speed around the ball in the forward line this season.We really stagnated in this area the last few years when we pinned our hopes on the enigmatic and under performing Harding,Hooper and Sherman.Our best 22 would seem to have Zorko,Green,Bewick,McGrath and maybe Banfield who is some chance to come good.It would be nice to see the ball bobbing around the forward area and pounced on by a Lion more often.

 

[Scubaveg]

I realise its still early days, but I've been thinking a little more about our recent drafting in light of our best 22 discussions. I think its disappointing that our 4 gun picks over the past few years in Longer, Docherty, Polec and Mayes are not seen as best 22 players. Mayes obvisouly hasn't had a chance just yet. In comparison, expansion teams aside, early picks from other teams seem to have cemented a spot. Eg Gaff West Coast, Heppell Bombers, Haneberry Swans, Nic Nac West Coast, Conca Richmond, etc Not sure if this is a reflection of our drafting or our development functions.

 

[Grimreepah]

I realise its still early days, but I've been thinking a little more about our recent drafting in light of our best 22 discussions. I think its disappointing that our 4 gun picks over the past few years in Longer, Docherty, Polec and Mayes are not seen as best 22 players. Mayes obvisouly hasn't had a chance just yet. In comparison, expansion teams aside, early picks from other teams seem to have cemented a spot. Eg Gaff West Coast, Heppell Bombers, Haneberry Swans, Nic Nac West Coast, Conca Richmond, etc Not sure if this is a reflection of our drafting or our development functions.

Rich and Redden were taken in the same draft as Naitanui and Haneberry.

Has Conca cemented a spot, or is he a fringe player like Lester and Green?

 

[Haso]

I realise its still early days, but I've been thinking a little more about our recent drafting in light of our best 22 discussions. I think its disappointing that our 4 gun picks over the past few years in Longer, Docherty, Polec and Mayes are not seen as best 22 players. Mayes obvisouly hasn't had a chance just yet. In comparison, expansion teams aside, early picks from other teams seem to have cemented a spot. Eg Gaff West Coast, Heppell Bombers, Haneberry Swans, Nic Nac West Coast, Conca Richmond, etc Not sure if this is a reflection of our drafting or our development functions.

I'd say development functions. Vossy is on record as saying that it is very rare for a first year player to get a game (or more than a couple) in his book. I'm pretty sure that Docherty was a focus of discussion at that time as well.

 

[dlanod]

I realise its still early days, but I've been thinking a little more about our recent drafting in light of our best 22 discussions. I think its disappointing that our 4 gun picks over the past few years in Longer, Docherty, Polec and Mayes are not seen as best 22 players. Mayes obvisouly hasn't had a chance just yet. In comparison, expansion teams aside, early picks from other teams seem to have cemented a spot. Eg Gaff West Coast, Heppell Bombers, Haneberry Swans, Nic Nac West Coast, Conca Richmond, etc Not sure if this is a reflection of our drafting or our development functions.

If you cherry pick examples it's going to look worse. As Grim pointed out, Hanneberry and Natanui were taken in the same draft as Rich, Redden and Rockliff. Throwing in Mayes is pretty crazy, so I'll throw him back out.

Here's the top picks for all other clubs in those three years:
Melbourne: Scully, Cook, Taggert
Richmond: Martin, Conca, Ellis
Fremantle: Morabito, Pitt, Sheridan
North: Cunnington, Atley, McKenzie
Sydney: Rohan, Lamb, Mitchell
West Coast: Sheppard, Gaff, Newman
Port: Butcher, Jacobs, Wingard
Essendon: Melksham, Heppell, Kavanagh
Carlton: Lucas, Watson, Bootsma
Adelaide: Talia, Brodie Smith, Kerridge
Bulldogs: Howard, Wallis, Clay Smith
Geelong: Menzel, Smedts, Hamling
Collingwood: N/A (Luke Ball), Fasolo, Paine
Hawthorn: Grimley, Isaac Smith, Hill
Saints: Winmar, Cripps, Ross

Two clubs only has one of the three players left on their list. Six clubs in total, in addition to us, have no best 22 players in the three picks. Richmond is the only team that has all three playing regular games last year. We obviously didn't get an immediate impact out of those early picks so far but cherry picking examples from other clubs as to how they've "cemented a spot" isn't exactly a great counter-example.

 

[Scubaveg]

Thanks for the analysis. Certainly not trying to cherry pick, and I recognized Mayes hasn't had chance. Mostly though I wanted to compare our picks at the top end of the draft to those equivalent picks by other clubs. I think Docherty was pick 12 so let's say pick 12 or better for the comparison. Which probably makes the Richmond comparisons good one. Granted quite early just yet, but on the surface we seem to have been less successful in comparison.

 

[Grimreepah]

In light of Kerry OT's post, I thought it might be interesting to look at the number of games played by draftees from each draft year:

2011:

games played/number of draftees (excluding rookie promotions)

74/11 - Fremantle
66/10 - Western Bulldogs
60/6 - Port Adelaide
40/10 - Richmond
38/7 - Melbourne
36/11 - St Kilda
26/9 - Brisbane
22/8 - Geelong
21/9 - Essendon
16/9 - Collingwood
15/7 - North Melbourne
14/6 - Carlton
8/7 - Hawthorn
4/1 - West Coast
2/10 - Adelaide
1/7 - Sydney

2010:

155/9 - Richmond
112/9 - Western Bulldogs
107/8 - West Coast
106/6 - North Melbourne
94/10 - Carlton
89/10 - Hawthorn
82/10 - Melbourne
77/7 - Sydney
75/8 - Brisbane
76/9 - Port Adelaide
75/10 - Essendon
70/10 - St Kilda
65/7 - Adelaide
60/11 - Collingwood
49/8 - Geelong
47/8 - Fremantle

2009:

263/10 - Essendon
262/9 - Fremantle
198/14 - Richmond
197/9 - Melbourne
190/9 - Geelong
169/10 - Sydney
159/8 - Adelaide
157/11 - Brisbane
151/8 - North Melbourne
101/7 - Collingwood
89/8 - West Coast
86/9 - Carlton
85/10 - Port Adelaide
76/8 - Hawthorn
74/9 - Western Bulldogs
9/9 - St Kilda

top 12 draft picks

2011:

19/1 - Port Adelaide
5/2 - Brisbane
0 - Sydney
0 - Adelaide
0 - Carlton
0 - Collingwood
0 - Essendon
0 - Western Bulldogs
0 - Fremantle
0 - Geelong
0 - Hawthorn
0 - Melbourne
0 - Richmond
0 - St Kilda
0 - West Coast
0 - North Melbourne

2010:

43/1 - Essendon
41/1 - West Coast
35/1 - Richmond
15/1 - Brisbane
0/1 - Melbourne
0 - Sydney
0 - Adelaide
0 - Carlton
0 - Collingwood
0 - Western Bulldogs
0 - Fremantle
0 - Geelong
0 - Hawthorn
0 - Port Adelaide
0 - St Kilda
0 - North Melbourne

2009:

109/3 - Melbourne
63/1 - Richmond
59/1 - Essendon
54/1 - North Melbourne
36/2 - Port Adelaide
32/1 - West Coast
23/1 - Fremantle
22/1 - Sydney
18/1 - Carlton
0 - Brisbane
0 - Adelaide
0 - Collingwood
0 - Western Bulldogs
0 - Geelong
0 - Hawthorn
0 - St Kilda

This only partly addresses Kerry OT's assertion, as starting 22 cementation has not been directly accounted for. It does however suggest that we don't over-indulge in playing youth, especially when you consider that we have been finishing down the bottom end of the ladder. I think this is probably due to our boon draft year in 2008 when we picked up Rich (82 games), Redden (76), Banfield (53), Cornelius (22) and Rockliff (62), and due to a reluctance to be playing too many <50 game players at the one time, later draftees have had (slightly) fewer opportunities.

Regarding top 12 draft picks, there is little info to compare to as GC and GWS have hogged the selections, but based on what is there, the tendency to not rush them into the seniors is even more pronounced.

*2011 figures do not inclue Zorko as he was technically a trade
*all calulations may or may not be correct.

 

[chopperduck]

It's an unfair comparison. Longer is a ruck, you are never going to expect early a ruck to cement a starting 22 spot in the first 3 years. Polec has had chances but has had some injury concerns. Doc is entering his 2nd year and is looking likely to force his way into the team this year. If you look past face value, there are reasons.

We have to remember that it's only been since 08 that our drafting has picked up, basically starting with the Rich, Redden, Rocky. Before that is a write off, since then is too early to call on our top end picks.