Review 2014 Post Season Member Briefing (fan forum)

[Scodog10]

They don't and can't play the same role and Dawes came off a very inury interupted preperation and plays for the most defensively focussed side in the comp. yet his stats are still better. Dawes is a better KP forward than White.

Did you just make an excuse for a bloke that had a poor season only to suit your agenda? To say that he is a better KPF than White is akin to preferring a shit sandwich over a giant douche (one for the South Park fans) or Abbott over Gillard.

Like every season of his career (bar 2010) Dawes lacked consistency and potency with just 6 matches in which he kicked multiple goals. He was a wise investment for Melbourne (aside from the obscene salary he's earning which equates to $25k for every goal kicked), but we were wise to part ways with him!

We have an able replacement in Reid and it is only the incompetence of the sports science/ medical department that has not seen that aspect bear fruit.

 

[MarkT2]

White is not a KP forward. He's just tall. So was Josh Fraser. Dawes is a structural player and that is precicely what we lack. Dawes is no star but we were better off in 2010 with Dawes over Fraser notwithstanding Fraser would out stat him in a heartbeat and we'd be better off with Dawes now whether or not there was a role for White or a simialr player. The two are not mutually exclusive.

As for Reid he's needed down back now more than ever.

 

[Scodog10]

All of that overlooks the fact that Dawes is no good. He was the 2nd worst performed number 1 forward league wide in 2014 ahead of only Casboult.

No matter what spin you want to put on that move we are ahead out the other side.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Chris Dawes played 18 games this year for 20 goals.
Jesse White played 18 games this year for 20 goals.

Dawes averaged 12 disposals, 4 marks and 3 tackles this year.
White averaged 10 disposals, 3 marks and 2 tackles this year. But he also averaged 6 hitouts while Dawes only averaged 0.6 hitouts.

The difference in output between the two are negligible at best. We picked up Broomhead with pick 20.

... And for the folks playing at home, compare those stats with Leigh Brown in 2010, the very bloke who inspired the term "Leigh Brown role":

Leigh Brown 2010
Games: 19
Goals: 21
Av Disposals: 12.2
Av Marks: 4.5
Av Tackles: 4.1
Av Hitouts: 4.9

 

[MeisterBot]

White is a third tall/ruck. He's been playing KP all season because Reid has been injured all year. Yet his stats as a key forward is roughly equivalent to Dawes'. Defensively, our KP stocks are fine with 2 of Brown, Keeffe and Frost good enough to play to a high standard. Marsh too as a developing talent in the VFL. What we're lacking in the back half is a Maxwell type general. Could Reid play that? Possibly, but we already have Langdon. What if Marsh puts in a strong pre-season? What if we trade for Ariel Steinberg?

Besides, this Dawes vs White scenario is silly. If we kept Dawes and never got White, we also never get Broomhead. I see Broomhead as the absolute classy mid/fwd we've been missing since Dids. Having him and White on our list beats having Dawes on our list.

 

[Nicco_jj]

... And for the folks playing at home, compare those stats with Leigh Brown in 2010, the very bloke who inspired the term "Leigh Brown role":

Leigh Brown 2010
Games: 19
Goals: 21
Av Disposals: 12.2
Av Marks: 4.5
Av Tackles: 4.1
Av Hitouts: 4.9

Stop being so reasonable and logical! We have no want or need for that here! And it is detrimental to our argument that White sucks!

 

[ksardog]

Chris Dawes played 18 games this year for 20 goals.
Jesse White played 18 games this year for 20 goals.

Dawes averaged 12 disposals, 4 marks and 3 tackles this year.
White averaged 10 disposals, 3 marks and 2 tackles this year. But he also averaged 6 hitouts while Dawes only averaged 0.6 hitouts.

The difference in output between the two are negligible at best. We picked up Broomhead with pick 20.

What was the average inside 50 count for both sides? Just wondering

 

[Lefthanded]

We have the fourth tallest list in AFL? Really?

I don't have 2014 figures handy at present but in 2013 we were 13th tallest (including rookies for every club) and we shed tall players Jolly, Hartley, Richmond & Paine so seems unlikely to me.

Sorry if this has been addressed earlier, I'm just ready through the mountain of posts as time permits.

Edit: that should be reading not ready in last line.

 

[Scodog10]

What was the average inside 50 count for both sides? Just wondering

I'd err towards I50 target % myself. For much of the year White was number 2 forward to the most kicked to forward in the game (% wise) whereas Dawes was the go to man in the Demons forward half.

I think the numbers would be fairly similar with Dawes probably slightly ahead.

 

[Lefthanded]

When you have one guy 208cm and another guy 174cm the average is 191cm. They can try and bluff us with stats but I have no doubt we have too many small blokes on our list.

Agree with first part of your statement. In 2013 (see my previous post disclaimers) Hawks had 9 players 180cm or less, Pies had 8, Lions had 3. Everyone please forget fixation on height, it's more about the quality of the players than how tall they are.

 

[Anzacday]

... And for the folks playing at home, compare those stats with Leigh Brown in 2010, the very bloke who inspired the term "Leigh Brown role":

Leigh Brown 2010
Games: 19
Goals: 21
Av Disposals: 12.2
Av Marks: 4.5
Av Tackles: 4.1
Av Hitouts: 4.9

Ah yes but don't forget, Browny played Ruck, forward & back, (played on and whacked all night J Brown).
So he was far more flexible and also played with presence

 

[Lefthanded]

From what I can gather from Paige's tweets here's what seems to be the positives and negatives of the night.

Positives:
- Eddie says the match day atmosphere is ordinary at the moment. It needs to improve as it's been watered down by the AFL and MCC.
- Derek Hine seems very confident that Matthew Scharenberg will be a gem for the club despite the injury setbacks.
- Alan Didak receiving a proper tribute next year!
- Massive wraps for Jonathan Marsh as well.
- Collingwood 'saving' salary cap. Unsure of what this exactly means considering what the media says about our salary caps but at the least the club is being smart about this though if this is true.
- No more fake crowd noise ever again!
- Introducing an 'active' supporters area - I don't know what to make of this but I like the idea of it though. It will drum up passion if it's not heavily regulated.
- The club is definitely looking to the future. Seems like we're a few years off from being real premiership contenders but the club has a plan set out from what I can gather.
- Buckley very insistent that Goldsack is staying but I'm not sure whether this is the case or not.

Negatives:
- Davoren's lack of explanation of what's causing our injuries was the biggest negative of the night. Didn't seem to explain it well at all.
- He was also critical of 'high altitude' training so those days of going to Arizona again are long gone by the looks of it.
- Davoren also said that Freeman had the most severe hamstring injury he's ever seen!
- Eddie seems content in keeping the dance troupe despite our criticisms of them.
- I wish more was asked about the dance, hug and kiss cam and the cheersquad assuming it wasn't asked tonight. This is a part of the match day experience problem we have at the moment.
- Hine's explanation about the inclusion of White, Lynch and Young for salary cap reasons and to provide experience seemed a tad weak but I'll accept for what it is.
- The answer to the question of why Keefe is 'taking the kick-ins' seemed weak by Buckley describing him as being 'technically a good kick'!

Outrageous Moments:
- Beanie man
- Someone saying that we should look at Jack Watts
- A woman asking about bringing back the 'Men of Collingwood' calendar
- Will the bar open longer? Got to love that question and it's a valid one for those of us that love a beer or two

This is just my impression of what was discussed tonight. I'd like to see a video or transcript of what was discussed on the club's website soon to have a better idea of what was going on tonight as this is only information from what Paige reported on Twitter tonight.

Sounds like an interesting night overall.

Gave you a like and quoting so I can find the summary easier.

 

[Lefthanded]

I was at the meeting tonight, these are my notes off the top of my head on what I took away:
- Ed reckons the fixturing debacle this year will cost the club $1m;
- Ed wants the cheer squad to become more of an active supporter base (he didnt expand, but i think he means more soccer style chanting);
- Bucks acknowledges that our kicking is not good enough (ranked 17th) and will be a focus in 2015;
- Bucks reckons the game plan is simple, based on power running both ways. Only problem is the team is not fit enough to run offensively when we win the ball;
- Bucks thinks Swan is in his twlight years, which suggests we wont be seeing any major improvement in 2015;
- Bucks is comfortable in his decision to move on Luke Ball. Doesnt think we have a leadership void as many of the young players have stepped up as leaders. He was really impressed with Sidebottom, and also the emergence of Elliott, Williams and Adams;
- Bucks believes the club has under trained in 2015 (despite the soft tissue injuries), their will be a continue focus on power running in 2015;
- Bucks expections for 2015 is to be top 4 and contend;
- Bill Davoren suggests we have improved our running performance by 5% from last season, based on GPS data;
- Bill rated our preseason work as 6.5 out of 10;
- Bill acknowledges increase in soft tissue injuries in 2014 from 2013 and categorically states this club has a hamstring problem. He is seeking advice from universities, AIS as he has never in his career experienced something this bad;
- Bill mentioned that the old 3 week model of a hamstring recover doesnt apply anymore. MRI machines have got better and as a result, anything related to a tendon issue is treated with more caution, given the significant risk of these injuries recurring;
- Member Q & A about the recruitment of mature age players. Response from Derek Hine that these players did not cost much (either free through free agency or a draft pick higher than pick 40). The plan is for the first round picks are the main pieces to replace the departing players (Dawes, Wellingham, Thomas). The mature age players are just 'steak knifes' or depth players to support the younger players already on the list. He gave the example of Tony Armstrong was not recruited to play 22 AFL games this season;
- Member Q & A about the recruitment of short players. Derek answered this by suggested they are recruited for certain skill sets. Ben Kennedy was used as an example of the need for a small mid-forward to replace Didak. Derek also acknowledge that Kennedy has a major shortfall with regards to his fitness ( Would explain why he is always used as a sub);
- Member Q & A on why our club gives other clubs certain perks, example given Queens Birthday is a Melbourne home game and Port Adelaide will wear the prison bar jersey in their final. Ed answered this question by suggesting these 'favours' are made because it allows the club to bank a favour in return, being always playing 18 games in Melbourne, more games at MCG and other minor things such as allowing Maxwell to do a lap of honor in a Holden (a Collingwood sponsor, which infers that the club get some sort of kickback) as opposed to a Toyota, an AFL sponsor;
- Member Q & A on kickouts. Bucks acknowledges we move the ball far too slow and will need to look at who should do the role. He rates Keeffe as a good kick, but pulled him from duties late in the season, acknowledging his struggles;
- Member Q & A about emergency policy. Bucks says ideally he does not want to hold emergencies as a precausion on stand by. He sees more value in making sure they play in VFL;
- Member Q & A about why the club no longer does altitude training. Bill Davoren thinks we get the same benefit to the players blood levels by training in the heat than we would at altitude. Ed also suggests that their was a recent AFLPA change that the players get a mandatory 6 week off over Christmas and that the usual date in which the players were training at altitude is no longer feasible from a date point of view and also from a cost point of view of $500k;
- Member Q & A about players getting outside medical treatment, away from the club. Scott Pendlebury apparently does this. Bill Davoren answer for this is that it is on the table for discussion. (My thoughts are if Pendles is getting treatment elsewhere, he obviously doesnt put much stock in the club medical department);
- Member Q & A if exercise bikes are used as part of the training program (Implication that riding will shorten the hamstring). Bill Davoren replied that it is only used during preseason and not during the season;
- Member Q & A whether Goldsack is staying at the club. Bucks answer was an emphatic Yes. Doesnt know where these media stories are coming from, maybe Tyson's agent trying to drum up interest;
- Member Q & A on whether membership prices will remain frozen. Justin Reeves was non-committal on this saying that no decision has been made yet. The aim is too provide best value membership. Justin also acknowledge that the membership department read emails but dont reply to them (I find this quite damning, especially if you have a genunine query that needs answering);
- Member Q & A on what has happened to the cheersquad. Ed's reply that it will be seriously looked at fixing. He mentioned that their quite a few reserved seat holders in the bay where the cheersquad is or around that dont turn up. Communication will be made to people in these areas on whether they want to partcipate or get their seat re-assigned elsewhere;
- Member Q & A about the selection of Matt Scharenburg given the injuries known before the draft. Derek Hine answered that even today they would still select Scharenburg 100 times out of 100. Extensive work was done analysing his injuries that they are comfortable he will be a really good 10-12 year player at this club;

quote so can find easily, good work!

 

[Lefthanded]

I do

I hope all our players on the field each week next year are as dedicated as you.

 

[Lefthanded]

For those questioning some of the appointments; lets not forget Bucks signed on with a senior coach to guide him and still hasn't got it.
Davoren has an athletics background and he was brought in to build our aerobic capacity.
Bucks mentioned the game against Swans last year at the G when they just ran all night and killed us as a sign of our lack of fitness.
The times in the game when we get the ball in our back line and then there's no one to kick to in the forward line, lack of fitness to do the up and back running, as well as not sticking to the game plan.
Other examples were Port last year twice when they ran us off our feet too.
Davoren has been brought in to fix that.

I thought it was a good presentation and it's funny how we think we know better than them; like the guy who tried to tell Bill about bike riding and the impact on hamstrings - the guy, (Bill) has been in the business since 1991!!

Most of what you say I agree with but bolded, I know you are referring to MM, but isn't that what Eade is for??

 

[MarkT2]

Agree with first part of your statement. In 2013 (see my previous post disclaimers) Hawks had 9 players 180cm or less, Pies had 8, Lions had 3. Everyone please forget fixation on height, it's more about the quality of the players than how tall they are.

It is about both. You will never win a flag with a one dimensional midfield. You need a mix of pace, footskills, inside ball winning ability, strength, etc. We lack height, strength, pace adn footskills overall. Part of that is related to the number of short mids we have. We got out muscled as far back as 20011 GF and we've gone backwards in that regard as well as pace & footskills since, not to mention depth. We can't play all our short people at once and expect to compete for a flag.

 

[Anzacday]

Most of what you say I agree with but bolded, I know you are referring to MM, but isn't that what Eade is for??

Yes supposedly, but he replaced Walshy and apparently Robert Harvey picked up the slack as the senior assistant

 

[Lefthanded]

That's one of those top down issues. With blokes like Toovey, Brown, Frost and Williams exiting the back half they mis kick regularly placing pressure on others providing a need for further fitness. It just seems like we're chasing our tail.

Emphasize skill and footy smarts (as Hawthorn and Geelong do) at the draft and you watch our fitness, skills, structure etc. increase it won't even need a focus on overall fitness levels because that will come with natural progression.



From my view they need to be sacked if they can't identify this stuff. I mean I'm external and it stands out like the proverbial to me.

Unfortunately this isn't an experience issue because some of our experienced players are the worst culprits (Blair, Lumumba, Goldsack and Macaffer) so like our kick ins and skill level it's top down.

Yes it is the coaches fault if the players don't follow team rules! Ross Lyon would never allow players to run around not following his impromada. They'd be dropped in a heartbeat. In the Pendles situation the players are instructed to go long and skinny to avoid being burnt on the turnover and that's where the ball wound up....

Buckley's self drive and determination was a massive asset as a player, but as a coach it means very little because he has no direct control over the outcome of a match. He needs to give us structure and tactics and we are yet to see any of the nuances that make a great coach.

FWIW my frustration is just a general one (not directed at you ) because so much of the support of Buckley is based on blind faith and his attributes as a player not what we've seen from Buckley the coach.

I appreciate your insights and share some of your concerns. I haven't lost faith in Buckley yet (but do have some concerns). Where I am partly different to you is that you seem to be critical of us not being more skillful. Of the players drafted under Buckley who are you unhappy with? Grundy, BK, Broom, Ramsay, Shazza, Freeman, Langdon, Marsh? With likes of Williams, Dwyer, Oxley upgraded. I haven't included Paine, Gault & Witts at end of 2011 as I'm not sure how much influence Buckley had then even though as the coach of 2012 you'd hope it was significant.

To me Williams & Marsh are the two who's footskills are probably most questionable but I certainly wouldn't question Williams promotion and think Marsh at that late pick was value and adds height and pace, two attributes we arguably lack.

 

[Lefthanded]

Davoren has only been at the club for 12 months - not long - and he is now on notice. That's all that really matters.

That and on field performance!

Drafted Hawk pointing out this inconsistency along with my own posted suspicions about Hine's 4th tallest claim do make me wonder, especially combined with some of the injury timeframes reported this year.

Edit: I don't know, but wonder if Davoren's reference to Freeman injury was a reinjury rather than from Geelong pre season? Did Freeman play any VFL or other (subsequent) pre season games this year?

 

[Lefthanded]

It is about both. You will never win a flag with a one dimensional midfield. You need a mix of pace, footskills, inside ball winning ability, strength, etc. We lack height, strength, pace adn footskills overall. Part of that is related to the number of short mids we have. We got out muscled as far back as 20011 GF and we've gone backwards in that regard as well as pace & footskills since, not to mention depth. We can't play all our short people at once and expect to compete for a flag.

Agree but our recruiting to me is addressing that, will just take a few years to develop. BK, Broom, Freeman all bring pace with 2 of them ok height without being as tall as Fyfe, Josh Kennedy etc. Adams also helping address ball winning.

 

[Lefthanded]

Yes supposedly, but he replaced Walshy and apparently Robert Harvey picked up the slack as the senior assistant

Maybe I'm a bit naive/uninformed here but I thought Eade was brought in as director of coaching role. Not sure what Walsh's role was but would have thought Buckley can use Eade's coaching experience regardless of his official title if necessary.

 

[Anzacday]

Maybe I'm a bit naive/uninformed here but I thought Eade was brought in as director of coaching role. Not sure what Walsh's role was but would have thought Buckley can use Eade's coaching experience regardless of his official title if necessary.

I'm sure he can.
I'd prefer a full time mentor or senior assistant to be appointed

 

[HFF]

So the game plan is simple- power transition running? WTF happened to football? You know kicking the footy with class and purpose, making correct decisions under pressure etc. You can teach any pony to run. Fitness will always improve. Skills and mental side of it cannot. You either have it or you don't.

What I found interesting was they ranked our training loads on heaviness to be between 6-12 in the competition. And yet, we have the worst injury crisis going around. Something is not right here. Davoren and co aren't being forthcoming IMO with what is happening.

 

[TheFreshBanana]

I thought it was always obvious that our game, Aussie Rules, at the top end of the spectrum, has always been a more athletic sport than other types of ball sports.

Between Basketball, Football (Soccer), and AFL; Football focuses a lot more on the technical and skills side, while AFL is more about athletic ability, and Basketball is probably somewhere in the middle.

 

[HFF]

I thought it was always obvious that our game, Aussie Rules, at the top end of the spectrum, has always been a more athletic sport than other types of ball sports.

Between Basketball, Football (Soccer), and AFL; Football focuses a lot more on the technical and skills side, while AFL is more about athletic ability, and Basketball is probably somewhere in the middle.

Run, run and run all day yet if you cannot execute the technical side of the game you have no place playing it. All aerobic capacity does is mask your weaknesses and deficiencies. It keeps you "competitive", however you will always setup to fail if this is your primary plan.

A footballer will always beat an athlete.