List Mgmt. 2015 Trade, Free agency and draft rumours

[Blaze Storm]

Haha
If he's finished brokering peace in the Middle East, that is

Seriously though, I think we need 2x genuine Best 22 mids this trade period - or at least 3 in the next 2 trade periods. Bennell would be 1 (and HFF - I know). Aish wouldn't be a walk-up in our 22 next year - I'd love that we get him, but there are a couple of others that I'd want more.

O'Rourke is almost there, and throw a blanket over Langers/Swiss/Howe, it isn't that dire.

 

[Brant]

JO'R, Langers, Swiss & Howe aren't Lewis, Hodge, Mitchell & Burgoyne.

Sure, in 2 years, JO'R, Howe, Swiss & Langers will be Best 22, but that doesn't mean they're any good - it just means that Hodge, Mitchell & Burgoyne have retired. We need players (midfielders in this case) to be forced out of the side by upcoming talent - not having old players retire & leave a gaping hole.

There is about 10 years between Hodge/Mitchell/Burgoyne & Howe/Langers/JO'R. That's without even considering the impact/skill/leadership deficit.

If we think replacing Hodge/Mitchell/Burgoyne with JO'R/Howe/Langers isn't absolutely dire then we may as well trade out Roughy knowing that we still have O'Brien, Frawley knowing that we have Kurt & retire Lake knowing that Brand will be back next year.

 

[Blaze Storm]

JO'R, Langers, Swiss & Howe aren't Lewis, Hodge, Mitchell & Burgoyne.

Sure, in 2 years, JO'R, Howe, Swiss & Langers will be Best 22, but that doesn't mean they're any good - it just means that Hodge, Mitchell & Burgoyne have retired. We need players (midfielders in this case) to be forced out of the side by upcoming talent - not having old players retire & leave a gaping hole.

There is about 10 years between Hodge/Mitchell/Burgoyne & Howe/Langers/JO'R. That's without even considering the impact/skill/leadership deficit.

If we think replacing Hodge/Mitchell/Burgoyne with JO'R/Howe/Langers isn't absolutely dire then we may as well trade out Roughy knowing that we still have O'Brien, Frawley knowing that we have Kurt & retire Lake knowing that Brand will be back next year.

True, but those players will never be "best 22" if they play 2-3 games a year in the 1s for 2 years until they request a trade.

 

[Brant]

True, but those players will never be "best 22" if they play 2-3 games a year in the 1s for 2 years until they request a trade.

You're spot on there, but there must be a transition - IMO, these guys can't finish on a Friday as Box Hill players & start the Monday as A Graders carrying a premiership aspirant.

That's why I suggest that we need 3x A Grade Mids in the next 2 years - so the JO'R, Langers & Howe types have a shot at positively contributing to the Team, not being the cause for the Team falling from 1st to 8th despite having guys like Doc, Frawley, Stratts & Cyril, Gunners, Roughy & Breust at each end.

 

[heh]

You're spot on there, but there must be a transition - IMO, these guys can't finish on a Friday as Box Hill players & start the Monday as A Graders carrying a premiership aspirant.

That's why I suggest that we need 3x A Grade Mids in the next 2 years - so the JO'R, Langers & Howe types have a shot at positively contributing to the Team, not being the cause for the Team falling from 1st to 8th despite having guys like Doc, Frawley, Stratts & Cyril, Gunners, Roughy & Breust at each end.

I think our blooding of mids has been our main failing in our future planning.
But I think it's kinda the cost we pay for staying up for as long as we have.

 

[Randy Campbell]

I

JO'R, Langers, Swiss & Howe aren't Lewis, Hodge, Mitchell & Burgoyne.

Sure, in 2 years, JO'R, Howe, Swiss & Langers will be Best 22, but that doesn't mean they're any good - it just means that Hodge, Mitchell & Burgoyne have retired. We need players (midfielders in this case) to be forced out of the side by upcoming talent - not having old players retire & leave a gaping hole.

There is about 10 years between Hodge/Mitchell/Burgoyne & Howe/Langers/JO'R. That's without even considering the impact/skill/leadership deficit.

If we think replacing Hodge/Mitchell/Burgoyne with JO'R/Howe/Langers isn't absolutely dire then we may as well trade out Roughy knowing that we still have O'Brien, Frawley knowing that we have Kurt & retire Lake knowing that Brand will be back next year.

The roles of Hodge, Mitchell, Burgoyne will need to be filled by Lewis, Shiels, Birchall, Breust and Cyril.
Anderson, JOR, Langers, Howe are the next in line not the next leaders.

Trust in the Box Hill apprenticeship.

 

[Brant]

I


The roles of Hodge, Mitchell, Burgoyne will need to be filled by Lewis, Shiels, Birchall, Breust and Cyril.
Anderson, JOR, Langers, Howe are the next in line not the next leaders.

Trust in the Box Hill apprenticeship.

Really?

So Anderson, JO'R, Whitecorss, Howe & Langers should see us play in 4xGF in a row & snag another Back-to-Back?

Or, should we trade for 3x JO'M/Bennell/Treloar types - genuine stars - & hope that JO'R, Howe, Langers, Whitecross contribute, rather than carry the club?

The roles of Hodge/Mitchell/Lewis can never be filled by guys like Cyril/Breust/Birchall. Birchall is a HBF - simply can not play inside midfield. At 27 - that is fact - we'd know otherwise. Cyril is Cyril - he does what Cyril does. He's a FP freak who pops up in the middle - sometimes - he isn't replacing Mitch/Hodge/Burger any time soon (or ever). Breust is a forward - not a Hodge utility, or a Burgoyne clearance machine or a Mitchell Wizard. How are these guys even considerations with regard to replacing Hodge/Mitch/Burgoyne? Birchall? Really?

If we're to be a force, we need genuine midfield stars - not talent, not 'pinch-hitters' & not Box Hill alternates. We can hope that Woodward goes on to play 300 games, wins 3 B&F & dominates the competition if you'd like - or we can trade for genuine stars.

 

[Rioli magic]

Who are you trading for these 3x genuine midfield stars Brant?

 

[Brant]

I think our blooding of mids has been our main failing in our future planning.
But I think it's kinda the cost we pay for staying up for as long as we have.

Mate it's not just that we've been up the last 3 years that has caused these guys to have flaws.

Our playing in 3 GF in a row hasn't caused Langers to have sh*t disposal. He plays at BH because he can't kick or handball to a target.
Jedi isn't at BH because we've gone unbeaten for 4 years & have Platten, Lethal, Jarman & Hodge in the midfield - the facts are that he hasn't been healthy long enough or followed instructions well enough to keep guys like Langers/Howe/Suckers from taking that 22nd spot.
Swiss isn't the victim of bullying or isolationism - he's not been an option since 2013 & when he came back he stunk it up.
Woody - see Swiss but for longer & with more stink.
JO'R - is playing where his output suggests that he should.

These guys need to be smashing BH so hard that we've no option but to play them - or at least so that we have the option of trading them for established stars. right now, they have 'promise' or 'talent' - they can't be relied on at AFL level, nor do they have trade value. This isn't the result of not playing them in the 1st Team - it's the result of us 'money-balling' role players & contributors the last 10 years, to support & facilitate our heroes.

 

[Blaze Storm]

Who are you trading for these 3x genuine midfield stars Brant?

^This. Plus you know that if you recruit 1-2 more ready-made mids, we will immediately lose 2-3 promising young mids for lack of opportunity, like we did with Boxer when Ohawk arrived.

 

[heh]

Mate it's not just that we've been up the last 3 years that has caused these guys to have flaws.

Our playing in 3 GF in a row hasn't caused Langers to have sh*t disposal. He plays at BH because he can't kick or handball to a target.
Jedi isn't at BH because we've gone unbeaten for 4 years & have Platten, Lethal, Jarman & Hodge in the midfield - the facts are that he hasn't been healthy long enough or followed instructions well enough to keep guys like Langers/Howe/Suckers from taking that 22nd spot.
Swiss isn't the victim of bullying or isolationism - he's not been an option since 2013 & when he came back he stunk it up.
Woody - see Swiss but for longer & with more stink.
JO'R - is playing where his output suggests that he should.

These guys need to be smashing BH so hard that we've no option but to play them - or at least so that we have the option of trading them for established stars. right now, they have 'promise' or 'talent' - they can't be relied on at AFL level, nor do they have trade value. This isn't the result of not playing them in the 1st Team - it's the result of us 'money-balling' role players & contributors the last 10 years, to support & facilitate our heroes.

Fair call, I just think some better investments could've been made, even with past players who've moved on to at least bridge the gap.
But maybe they will do that this trade period.

 

[Randy Campbell]

Really?

So Anderson, JO'R, Whitecorss, Howe & Langers should see us play in 4xGF in a row & snag another Back-to-Back?

Or, should we trade for 3x JO'M/Bennell/Treloar types - genuine stars - & hope that JO'R, Howe, Langers, Whitecross contribute, rather than carry the club?

The roles of Hodge/Mitchell/Lewis can never be filled by guys like Cyril/Breust/Birchall. Birchall is a HBF - simply can not play inside midfield. At 27 - that is fact - we'd know otherwise. Cyril is Cyril - he does what Cyril does. He's a FP freak who pops up in the middle - sometimes - he isn't replacing Mitch/Hodge/Burger any time soon (or ever). Breust is a forward - not a Hodge utility, or a Burgoyne clearance machine or a Mitchell Wizard. How are these guys even considerations with regard to replacing Hodge/Mitch/Burgoyne? Birchall? Really?

If we're to be a force, we need genuine midfield stars - not talent, not 'pinch-hitters' & not Box Hill alternates. We can hope that Woodward goes on to play 300 games, wins 3 B&F & dominates the competition if you'd like - or we can trade for genuine stars.

Can't rely on so few for so much.
That's for an older game plan.

 

[seysearles]

It would be nice to fit in both Aish and Bennell this trade period.....can it be done.

I would start to become seriously concerned about our ability to retain Anderson, O'Rourke, Langford, Woodward, Simpkin, Whitecross (the latter to are probably already gone tbh) et all if that were to happen.

 

[Brant]

Who are you trading for these 3x genuine midfield stars Brant?

This probably belongs in the Hypotheticals Thread, but since you asked:

2015: HFC retire Hale ($350k) & Lake ($350k)
2016: HFC retire Burgoyne ($350k)

2015: 1st Rounder + 2nd Rounder
2016: 1st Rounder + 2nd Rounder
Stratts
Big Boy
Suckling (FA)
Whitecross (FA)

Assumptions:
- Gold Coast lose Charlie Dixon to Pooort
- Gold Coast sacked Bennell
- JO'M is seeking a Victorian home
- Aish wants to move to Melb/Adel
- Luenberger (sp.) wants out as a FA
- Clubs would rather take Whitecorss / Suckling via trade than FA so as not to impact their compensation

HFC send Big Boy + Stratton +2015 2nd + 2016 1st + 2016 2nd to Cold Ghost (OVERS)
GCFC send JO'M + Bennell to HFC
*we should ask for Zac Smith as well

HFC send 2015 1st + Suckling to Brissie (OVERS)
Brissie send Aish to HFC


Sure, we get smashed in both of the above & are therefore required to use our 3rd & 4th in the Draft - especially when considering that we'll likely lose Simpkin to Carlton as well as retire Hale & possibly Lake - but if we want genuine midfield stars - we gotta make stuff happen.

 

[seysearles]

This probably belongs in the Hypotheticals Thread, but since you asked:

2015: HFC retire Hale ($350k) & Lake ($350k)
2016: HFC retire Burgoyne ($350k)

2015: 1st Rounder + 2nd Rounder
2016: 1st Rounder + 2nd Rounder
Stratts
Big Boy
Suckling (FA)
Whitecross (FA)

Assumptions:
- Gold Coast lose Charlie Dixon to Pooort
- Gold Coast sacked Bennell
- JO'M is seeking a Victorian home
- Aish wants to move to Melb/Adel
- Luenberger (sp.) wants out as a FA
- Clubs would rather take Whitecorss / Suckling via trade than FA so as not to impact their compensation

HFC send Big Boy + Stratton +2015 2nd + 2016 1st + 2016 2nd to Cold Ghost (OVERS)
GCFC send JO'M + Bennell to HFC
*we should ask for Zac Smith as well

HFC send 2015 1st + Suckling to Brissie (OVERS)
Brissie send Aish to HFC


Sure, we get smashed in both of the above & are therefore required to use our 3rd & 4th in the Draft - especially when considering that we'll likely lose Simpkin to Carlton as well as retire Hale & possibly Lake - but if we want genuine midfield stars - we gotta make stuff happen.

.... and we are down to one ruckman (Ceglar) and Pittonet who isnt ready. I dont see Gold Coast handing over Bennell Omeara and Smith in one go and even if they did Smith and Ceglar alone arent enough as ruck stocks.

.... and back to my initial point, not only will you will be pushing anderson, orourke, langford and howe further away from the team, but presuming that O'Meara and Bennell both come into the 22 you will in all likelihood be pushing hartung and possibly hill/poppy out of it for the 2016 season while mitch, burgers, hodge et al are all still there. I suspect that Mitch and Hodge will want to play on in 2017 also which compounds the problem.

 

[Brant]

I would start to become seriously concerned about our ability to retain Anderson, O'Rourke, Langford, Woodward, Simpkin, Whitecross (the latter to are probably already gone tbh) et all if that were to happen.

Why would you be wanting to retain Whitecross, Simpkin & Woodward if they're not as good as Aish yet cost the same/more?

Surely you don't want to retain guys that are 24-27 with 4-7 years on a Senior List but can't get a game, when you have 20-22 yr olds who can instantly replace them?

 

[Blaze Storm]

This probably belongs in the Hypotheticals Thread, but since you asked:

2015: HFC retire Hale ($350k) & Lake ($350k)
2016: HFC retire Burgoyne ($350k)

2015: 1st Rounder + 2nd Rounder
2016: 1st Rounder + 2nd Rounder
Stratts
Big Boy
Suckling (FA)
Whitecross (FA)

Assumptions:
- Gold Coast lose Charlie Dixon to Pooort
- Gold Coast sacked Bennell
- JO'M is seeking a Victorian home
- Aish wants to move to Melb/Adel
- Luenberger (sp.) wants out as a FA
- Clubs would rather take Whitecorss / Suckling via trade than FA so as not to impact their compensation

HFC send Big Boy + Stratton +2015 2nd + 2016 1st + 2016 2nd to Cold Ghost (OVERS)
GCFC send JO'M + Bennell to HFC
*we should ask for Zac Smith as well

HFC send 2015 1st + Suckling to Brissie (OVERS)
Brissie send Aish to HFC


Sure, we get smashed in both of the above & are therefore required to use our 3rd & 4th in the Draft - especially when considering that we'll likely lose Simpkin to Carlton as well as retire Hale & possibly Lake - but if we want genuine midfield stars - we gotta make stuff happen.

Why are we getting rid of BB and Stratton again?

We lose Hale most likely, so who's playing in the Ruck? Ceglar and Pittonet? What if one is injured? We play Schoey?
Are you banking on Frawley/Brand covering the medium forwards? Or are we relying on Birchall/Burgers/Gibbo to keep up with players 10 years younger than them?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Should we be worried Carlisle still hasn't nominated a team?

 

[Brant]

.... and we are down to one ruckman (Ceglar) and Pittonet who isnt ready. I dont see Gold Coast handing over Bennell Omeara and Smith in one go and even if they did Smith and Ceglar alone arent enough as ruck stocks.

So grab Kruzer as an FA or Lobbe (Poort get Dixon) or one of the Perth ruckmen if they want an opportunity at a Premiership instead of playing at East perth or Peel Thunder.

Why are you so desperate to hold onto depth that has only proven themselves as depth players, in spite of trading in genuine stars? Work out the cost then make it happen, don't support the guy that makes up excuses as to why it can't happen...

How is it crazy to want to improve the list at the cost of expendable parts?

 

[seysearles]

So grab Kruzer as an FA or Lobbe (Poort get Dixon) or one of the Perth ruckmen if they want an opportunity at a Premiership instead of playing at East perth or Peel Thunder.

Why are you so desperate to hold onto depth that has only proven themselves as depth players, in spite of trading in genuine stars? Work out the cost then make it happen, don't support the guy that makes up excuses as to why it can't happen...

How is it crazy to want to improve the list at the cost of expendable parts?

Because the rebuild from scratch approach has served us VERY well in the past and the way that we have recruited (mature players) and played a core group of players for such a long period while we are in the window gives me the impression that we are taking the "make hay when the sun shines" approach. Win as many as possible with this elite list then deal with the consequences once the era reaches its close. I for one could swallow a bulldog or saint style 3-5 yr rebuild if it meant a 3peat or by some grace of god 4 in a row.

 

[Brant]

Why are we getting rid of BB and Stratton again?

We lose Hale most likely, so who's playing in the Ruck? Ceglar and Pittonet? What if one is injured? We play Schoey?
Are you banking on Frawley/Brand covering the medium forwards? Or are we relying on Birchall/Burgers/Gibbo to keep up with players 10 years younger than them?

We're trading BB & Stratts to get Bennell & Jaeger O'Mearer - I thought I made that pretty clear. I could have suggested trading Grimmers & Webster & Willsmore but I thought I'd make it at least semi-realistic & include guys that have currency & that GC might actually want/need.

No - I'm not hoping that Brand/Frawley cover medium forwards. I'm hoping that Litherland does it - he's been there long enough. I'm hoping that Kurt comes on.

What I'm really hoping is that bringing in genuine midfield stars to replace Hodge/Burgoyne keeps us going so that we can cover the loss of Stratton. Keeping Stratton & losing Hodge/Burgoyne to be replaced by Langers/Whitecross/Simpkin is simply not an option, unless we're hoping to slide & get some Top 10 picks - or is that what you're suggesting we do???

If you're so against trading Big Boy & Stratton, why don't you suggest to me how we get hold of 3x midfield stars in the next couple of years?
Or, name the last Premiership Team that hosted a midfield equivalent to: Lewis, Langford, Woodward, Jedi, Shiels, Whitecross, Howe & JO'R.
(Add Breust & Cyril if you like - just be sure to include explanation as to whom will crumb & kick our goals)

 

[Brant]

Because the rebuild from scratch approach has served us VERY well in the past and the way that we have recruited (mature players) and played a core group of players for such a long period while we are in the window gives me the impression that we are taking the "make hay when the sun shines" approach. Win as many as possible with this elite list then deal with the consequences once the era reaches its close. I for one could swallow a bulldog or saint style 3-5 yr rebuild if it meant a 3peat or by some grace of god 4 in a row.

Not sure how to tell you this man - there is no 3-5 yr approach...

Saints have been rebuilding since 1966 & Footscray since before that. Ask Eagles (1994-2005-xxxx), (Poooort 2004-xxxx), Adelaide (1997/8-xxxx), or Scum (2000-xxxx), or Carltank (1996-xxxx) or Collingwood (1990-2010), or Brissie 2003-xxxx) or North (1999-xxxx), Ninthmond 198x-xxxx).

You either build from strength to strength by trading out the now for the future or you go a bunch of years, hoping that the moons align.

Soooo many of those sides had the lists for multiple premierships yet it didn't happen (bolded not achieved).
Saints: 2004/5, 2009 + 2010
Collingwood: 2010 + 2011
Scum: 2000 + 2001
Eagles: 2005 + 2006
Shitme: 2005 + 2006

 

[seysearles]

You either build from strength to strength by trading out the now for the future or you go a bunch of years, hoping that the moons align.

Soooo many of those sides had the lists for multiple premierships yet it didn't happen

All the more reason to live recklessly in the now and milk every last game out of this premiership winning squad with scant regard for what happens beyond this window.

 

[Brant]

All the more reason to live recklessly in the now and milk every last game out of this premiership winning squad with scant regard for what happens beyond this window.

Remember last time we did that?
That li'l merger issue we faced, mid 90's?
How'd that work for Brissie post 2003? Maybe we should see what Fev is up to?

You reckon that same ridiculous notion will cover the cost of the $50m+ facility at Dingley? The facility we're considering so as to cement our position in the top tier of this competition for the next 30+ years?

Maybe the Club will win $30m lotto 2 weeks in a row & we'll cover Dingley costs that way?

Or, do you think the best run club on the Continent might have a better strategy than: All the more reason to live recklessly in the now and milk every last game out of this premiership winning squad with scant regard for what happens beyond this window.

You're right - maybe I just take this sh*t way too seriously....

 

[TyHawk]

A young star from a premiership team is having is in limbo contract wise as his manager and the club are at a bit of a loggerheads!!!!! Don't like the sound of this as word is it may be Jed! Hope not.