Jabba73
Hall of Famer
The highlighted bit seems important, can you make it a bit easier to understand?
Injury 2018 Blue Healers Medical Room - HBF - fainthearted 1-2 weeks
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Well I'm glad it has taken a retched year of injuries to atleast look into this part of the club and sort it out now before we have the chance to challenge. I just hope we haven't ruined anyone?
thylacine60
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me
It's not always me,me,me....this is why parents shouldn't spoil children!
When we get tired we get shit aye
Jimmae
Brownlow Medallist
Probably not.
Essentially it suggests a pattern of fatigue such that heart rate isn't recovering as expected at rest, which is critical for a sport like footy where you are cycling between burst efforts (anaerobic work aka sprints, marks/leaps or stoppage/tackle busting) and tracking the play (aerobic aka traditional cardio).
Essentially each time you're making this burst effort, you're depleting glycogen stores so they can circulate as needed, the areas for these being the liver and around skeletal muscle tissue. Every individual has hard limits on all the associated factors with this: how much food they can consume and utilise, what kinds of food and how fast they can turn this into relevant metabolic units or stores, then of course how quickly and often they can tap into that and how their body recovers after in terms of replenishment and accompanying fat oxidation and protein utilisation (i.e. how readily your own body eats its own muscle given your diet and circumstances).
There's more still to it than that, but that gives you an idea of the big crazy picture that human metabolism can be.
Moving on from that, if for whatever reason (oxygen levels, anaerobic fatigue, disease, whatever), you can't keep hitting that button normally due to on-going fatigue (though in this case likely through an issue of some combination of excessive training, poor nutrition and improper rest), a general sense of unease will kick in due to rising stress (including pumping out hormones like cortisol and adrenaline). If you've ever experienced or know someone who has experienced a panic attack (or suffered from things like chronic pain, chronic fatigue, asthma or a heart attack), it's essentially like the earliest of stages as that progresses.
So basically you're distracted, jittery and have this rising sense of unease. It can seem minor at first, but it can creep further and affect your motor skills and decision making noticeably before you're fully cognisant of what's happening. It's a harder thing to spot in sport because fatigue, excited behaviour and nervousness are obviously ramped up, but when it's consistently accompanied by poor performance early in games despite an adequate spread of age, experience and talent (and while we're young, we have considering how many of our newer recruits are elite endurance athletes), it's a concern.
As the game has progressed, it's probably reached a critical point in performance standards where hitting 'the wall', which is coming to be accepted as how the body handles glycogen depletion and moving over to fat oxidation efficiently (as opposed to just glycogen depletion) is happening about as hard and as often than any human has likely ever experienced on a regular basis, and so while the hormonal and some of the enzymatic factors involved with this are being tracked via blood and urine samples, it's unlikely that this is being looked at through the central nervous system and thus the brain (i.e. the CSF).
So while the mental effects of fatigue are understood to be there and somewhat accounted for, I think what we're seeing is a failure not only to recognise how driving and improving fat oxidation can have a protective effect in these circumstances, but that there is a potentially identifiable biological limit for each athlete in a given circumstance, and continually trying to push at that limit has both short term (the situation we're seeing at the club) and long term consequences (rates of neurological diseases are higher among athletes) despite the adaptability and scalability that is there.
Maybe it seems obvious to say that sometimes you need to know your limits and take it easy and look after yourself, but this is exactly the kind of creeping in general health that is such a huge part of our health care today: diabetes, cancer, chronic disease, aging... it sneaks up on you and leaves you in denial for a bit if you are (or are close to) the individual.
- Oct 8, 2009
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Biggest concern for me over the last two years has been the club playing blokes through injuries they clearly shouldn’t be playing with. It’s been happening for years at Carlton.
It’s a tough situation, especially this year with how poorly we performed on the field and considering how little depth we have. But I just don’t see why you should be jeopardising a young players ankle or shoulder because you’re crying out for a bit of talent to reduce a loss margin slightly.
Kennedy going through the entire season with a cooked ankle needing surgery after hurting it in round 1 is ridiculous. Likewise Marchbank playing last year without proper range of motion in his shoulder. These aren’t corks or a dodgy finger that you’re fine to push through without having serious issues later on.
Obviously I can’t blame anyone directly and have no idea what goes on when it comes to selection, but things really need to change next year. In my opinion more long term thinking needs to be done when it comes to some of these guys. We’ll never improve or win anything if our young blokes continue to spend time on the sidelines or play while injured.
It’s a tough situation, especially this year with how poorly we performed on the field and considering how little depth we have. But I just don’t see why you should be jeopardising a young players ankle or shoulder because you’re crying out for a bit of talent to reduce a loss margin slightly.
Kennedy going through the entire season with a cooked ankle needing surgery after hurting it in round 1 is ridiculous. Likewise Marchbank playing last year without proper range of motion in his shoulder. These aren’t corks or a dodgy finger that you’re fine to push through without having serious issues later on.
Obviously I can’t blame anyone directly and have no idea what goes on when it comes to selection, but things really need to change next year. In my opinion more long term thinking needs to be done when it comes to some of these guys. We’ll never improve or win anything if our young blokes continue to spend time on the sidelines or play while injured.
Jabba73
Hall of Famer
Thanks for that answer. A couple of follow up questions if I mayProbably not.
Essentially it suggests a pattern of fatigue such that heart rate isn't recovering as expected at rest, which is critical for a sport like footy where you are cycling between burst efforts (anaerobic work aka sprints, marks/leaps or stoppage/tackle busting) and tracking the play (aerobic aka traditional cardio).
Essentially each time you're making this burst effort, you're depleting glycogen stores so they can circulate as needed, the areas for these being the liver and around skeletal muscle tissue. Every individual has hard limits on all the associated factors with this: how much food they can consume and utilise, what kinds of food and how fast they can turn this into relevant metabolic units or stores, then of course how quickly and often they can tap into that and how their body recovers after in terms of replenishment and accompanying fat oxidation and protein utilisation (i.e. how readily your own body eats its own muscle given your diet and circumstances).
There's more still to it than that, but that gives you an idea of the big crazy picture that human metabolism can be.
Moving on from that, if for whatever reason (oxygen levels, anaerobic fatigue, disease, whatever), you can't keep hitting that button normally due to on-going fatigue (though in this case likely through an issue of some combination of excessive training, poor nutrition and improper rest), a general sense of unease will kick in due to rising stress (including pumping out hormones like cortisol and adrenaline). If you've ever experienced or know someone who has experienced a panic attack (or suffered from things like chronic pain, chronic fatigue, asthma or a heart attack), it's essentially like the earliest of stages as that progresses.
So basically you're distracted, jittery and have this rising sense of unease. It can seem minor at first, but it can creep further and affect your motor skills and decision making noticeably before you're fully cognisant of what's happening. It's a harder thing to spot in sport because fatigue, excited behaviour and nervousness are obviously ramped up, but when it's consistently accompanied by poor performance early in games despite an adequate spread of age, experience and talent (and while we're young, we have considering how many of our newer recruits are elite endurance athletes), it's a concern.
As the game has progressed, it's probably reached a critical point in performance standards where hitting 'the wall', which is coming to be accepted as how the body handles glycogen depletion and moving over to fat oxidation efficiently (as opposed to just glycogen depletion) is happening about as hard and as often than any human has likely ever experienced on a regular basis, and so while the hormonal and some of the enzymatic factors involved with this are being tracked via blood and urine samples, it's unlikely that this is being looked at through the central nervous system and thus the brain (i.e. the CSF).
So while the mental effects of fatigue are understood to be there and somewhat accounted for, I think what we're seeing is a failure not only to recognise how driving and improving fat oxidation can have a protective effect in these circumstances, but that there is a potentially identifiable biological limit for each athlete in a given circumstance, and continually trying to push at that limit has both short term (the situation we're seeing at the club) and long term consequences (rates of neurological diseases are higher among athletes) despite the adaptability and scalability that is there.
Maybe it seems obvious to say that sometimes you need to know your limits and take it easy and look after yourself, but this is exactly the kind of creeping in general health that is such a huge part of our health care today: diabetes, cancer, chronic disease, aging... it sneaks up on you and leaves you in denial for a bit if you are (or are close to) the individual.
Can it be avoided by modifying training?
How do you build an AFL level of fitness without pushing the limits of endurance?
Can it be measured without relying purely on the athlete being aware it is happening? How?
Jimmae
Brownlow Medallist
The specific answers to that are above my background knowledge, but I would suggest significant diet modification is required, particularly through the off-season, and training needs to become more specialised.
Skills and oval sessions would be a hell of a lot shorter if they incorporated ball skills with relevant HIIT phasing, and this would be much more relevant to game day performance as well. You'd still want each player to have 5-15 minutes getting techniques checked each week, but the rest of the time they should be left to focus on this (outside of early pre-season).
I'd probably look to then taper strength training sessions slightly, and max out total physical prep at about two thirds of what I expect they do today (which I'd estimate at
Measurement of fatigue would be like I suggested: checking biomarkers. All I'm suggesting is that they start looking for ways to acquire more biomarkers in regards to neurological signs of stress.
EDIT: somehow added another day of training in my estimate..
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Jabba73
Hall of Famer
Would be interested to know what other clubs are doing in this area, seems like there is scope for rapid improvement if we can get it right.
Remember an interview with Usain Bolt where he discussed doing training levels depending on how he felt each day. Was all about his body dictating when to push it to the limit and when to take it easy.
ferrisb
Brownlow Medallist
I've been doing that for the last 10 years.
I am now on my 3,650th consecutive day of my body telling me it CBF training.
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CCurnow update:-
Excellent news!
http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/20...ed-in-saturday-nights-match-against-adelaide-
Excellent news!
http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/20...ed-in-saturday-nights-match-against-adelaide-
AceAndy
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Excellent news
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Thank goodness for that.
The new head of football has hit the ground running
Hope this is his last injury comment for a long long time
Great news that Charlie is ok.
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The new head of football has hit the ground running
Hope this is his last injury comment for a long long time
Great news that Charlie is ok.
1-2 years.
Shit!!! Hasn't taken Lloyd long to get his bum in the seat has it???
Nice. Pretty sure Mr_Plow called it as that in the autopsy thread.
Also, too early to add Mitch McGovern to the injured list? Minor surgery on the ankles for cleanouts, but will be good to go for day 1 of pre-season
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I've played with all sort of injuries, albeit at a much lower level of footy. Some blokes will say they're fine and play through nearly anything. If they can convince the medical staff they're good enough to play, they will.
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When players are visibly showing signs that they’re restricted they shouldn’t be playing
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I agree, but if they say they're fit enough and pass medical tests, the only hurdle is the MC selecting them.
And to be honest, our depth is about as deep as a toddlers swimming pool
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