Certified Legendary Thread 2023 ICC Men's Cricket World Cup Game 48 The Final India v Australia 19/11 1900hrs @ Narendra Modi Stadium

[grumbleguts]

Can someone with passing knowledge of psychology explain the general mentality of Indian cricket fans? It’s very very odd

Ask plugger35 he's suffered from the same condition his entire life.

 

[Gough]

Exactly. They ARE addressing the bowling issue more and more hence they’ve come here and won twice despite bringing inferior batting line ups to what they’ve had in the past, because their attacks have known how to bowl as a unit and their quicks have been effective. The batting was never that much of an issue.
Even in previous generations:
It wasn’t like Vengsarkar (averaged about 50 in England)
Armanath (averaged over 50 in both Australia and the West Indies at a time when the Windies had some breathtakingly difficult pitches for visiting batsmen)
And obviously Gavaskar - who averaged over 40 everywhere bar Sri Lanka - could not all make runs on non-Asian style pitches either.

Even an artist like Azharuddin- yeah he struggled with the pace of Australia and SA but still made a beautiful century in both….. and managed to hit 4 centuries across 15 matches in England and NZ and average over 50 combined there.

Azhar scored a gorgeous 90 odd in the Test here when AB spat the dummy about Marsh being dropped for Perth.

 

[JimmyBC]

Yes, Dravid hitting 93 which was the top score in a match that India won at the waca in 2008 was based around a drop in dead wicket
Tendulkar hitting two centuries as a teenager in the 1991-92 series co-incided with the mid-2000s.
VVS Laxman hitting 167 out of 260 against McGrath, Warne, Lee and Gillespie in 2000 also happened in the mid 2000s.

Are you even familiar with any of the names I’ve mentioned?

Mate. It’s a fact, and another post I made in response to Gough - who to his credit knows more about cricket than what Fox Sports tells him - alluded to this.

The notion that all India’s batsmen who average 40+ do it because they bat on flat lifeless wickets and they cant make runs on anything in England, NZ, SA, Australia or in days gone by, the West Indies, is a myth.

They had four really good batsmen in the 80s - Gavaskar, Vengsarkar, Armanath and Azharuddin. Gavaskar had no holes anywhere in his record. Azhar proved himself completely in NZ and England and made centuries in Aus and SA. Armanath was outstanding in Australia and WI and only averaged 30 at home.

I’ve just shown you that their previous generation were all proven performers outside of India.

It’s bizarre why you seem to want to ignore that and still place their lack of away success at the feet of their batsmen when the answer is pretty clearly their bowling.

I didn't lay it completely at their batsmen & by the way what did you not understand about this sentence "Apart from a few exceptional batsmen they struggle on anything with bounce, pace, seam." you then go on to list the Tendulkars & Dravids just lol.

Give me Ganguly's ave in Australia for example.

 

[beatnik]

I think you're missing the point.

I don't think Nasser's decision to bowl first was that brave but he was going against the logic of batting first in a test match at the Gabba.

It was brave in that he was going against the odds when teams have a much better chance of winning there batting first.

Cummins decision to bowl first was based more on logic as teams batting second at Ahmedabad have a much better chance of winning.

You could call that brave but it was more of a logical decision to bowl first based on the odds being in his favour.

Most people just assumed that batting first in a final was the right choice without taking the venue or the conditions into account.

Mmm, hot salty post-World Cup tears

 

[beatnik]

Azhar scored a gorgeous 90 odd in the Test here when AB spat the dummy about Marsh being dropped for Perth.

I vaguely remember that but I’ll be honest, the 6 World Cup wins since then have cluttered my memory

 

[grumbleguts]

People talking about the over the top reaction of India fans need to see this pearler which was sent to Ian Higgins (grade cricketer fame)

I would have simply replied with "*bald"

 

[Gough]

I vaguely remember that but I’ll be honest, the 6 World Cup wins since then have cluttered my memory

Our World Cup defence that summer was was awful.

 

[Plugger35]

This is so utterly pathetic that I have no choice but to presume that you are not real but rather a parody account

How is what I said pathetic?

It's true that Aussie supporters were downplaying our WTC win, saying that the trophy and system was a joke because they didn't win it.

Of course that all changed when Australia won it this year and now it is being talked up as another great achievement by their supporters.

NZ winning the WTC was a complete Bradbury

Even if you could argue that we did a Bradbury to make the final, we still needed to beat a tough opponent in India in the final to win it.

The same opponent Australia beat in the final to win it this year.

Except we did it first.

 

[PhatBoy]

Azhar scored a gorgeous 90 odd in the Test here when AB spat the dummy about Marsh being dropped for Perth.

And the game before it made a beautiful hundred at Adelaide. He really was spectacular to watch

 

[PhatBoy]

I didn't lay it completely at their batsmen & by the way what did you not understand about this sentence "Apart from a few exceptional batsmen they struggle on anything with bounce, pace, seam." you then go on to list the Tendulkars & Dravids just lol.

Give me Ganguly's ave in Australia for example.

He averaged 35 here…. And 60 in England. So he didn’t ‘struggle with pace bounce and seam movement’ did he. He probably didn’t handle pace and bounce as well as he played spin but making 140 at the Gabba suggests he could handle it and averaging 60 in England means that your statement is incorrect. For any batsman to ‘struggle with pace, bounce and seam movement’ they’re going to be bad in all SENA countries, make basically no triple figure scores in any of them - Ganguly made 5 in total - and rely entirely on their home record to prop them up.

It’s a myth mate.

I’ve listed for you an ACTUAL line up they brought here at one point: Gambhir, Sehwag, Tendulkar, Laxman, Dravid and Kohli.
I haven’t just peeled off two exceptional batsmen.

 

[JimmyBC]

Even if you could argue that we did a Bradbury to make the final, we still needed to beat a tough opponent in India in the final to win it.

The same opponent Australia beat in the final to win it this year.

Except we did it first.

Everyone beats India in England.

 

[PhatBoy]

Everyone beats India in England.

Except England in 2 of the last 4 matches they’ve played there.
You know England’s win there in the fifth test in 2022 was to level the series that India was winning 2-1 when it was ended by Covid in 2021 after the 4th test yeah?

 

[JimmyBC]

I'm trying to come to terms with Ganguly averaged 34 and one test match hundred in Australia & it proves he was good here, jeezus we ourselves whack Warner for his record elsewhere.

 

[PhatBoy]

I'm trying to come to terms with Ganguly averaged 34 and one test match hundred in Australia & it proves he was good here, jeezus we ourselves whack Warner for his record elsewhere.

It doesn’t. Combined with his average of 60 in England, it dispels your assertion that he ‘can’t play pace, bounce and seam’

Explain to me again why it doesn’t.

You’ve had your argument smacked up the backside without lube and you’re dancing hard around it, address what’s actually in front of you.

All the ‘decent’ batsmen India have brought out here and to the other SENA nations across the last 30 years have been able to handle those conditions with some level of competency and have proven it. You don’t have to average 80 in every country that doesn’t sit in the subcontinent to show you can handle it mate.

5 centuries not enough for you?

And yeah, we whack Warner because he averages 32 away from home, not 41 like Sourav Ganguly.

And even Warner I will still defend to some degree because he played two superb knocks in Bangladesh and some ball tearers in SA

 

[JimmyBC]

It doesn’t. Combined with his average of 60 in England, it dispels your assertion that he ‘can’t play pace, bounce and seam’

Explain to me again why it doesn’t.

You’ve had your argument smacked up the backside without lube and you’re dancing hard around it, address what’s actually in front of you.

All the ‘decent’ batsmen India have brought out here and to the other SENA nations across the last 30 years have been able to handle those conditions with some level of competency and have proven it. You don’t have to average 80 in every country that doesn’t sit in the subcontinent to show you can handle it mate.

5 centuries not enough for you?

What did he average in New Zealand?

By the way we are just having an interaction here I'm not interested in your juvenile internetz lubing rubbish.

 

[PhatBoy]

What did he average in New Zealand?

By the way we are just having an interaction here I'm not interested in your juvenile internetz lubing rubbish.

30. With a century.
And of all those players he’s probably the hardest to make a case for.

So essentially:

• he’s not just thrived, he’s dominated England.
• He’s proven he can bat in Australia
• he’s struggled in NZ but still managed a century there
• he averaged 36 in SA. if you want to break it down, he batted 4 times at Wanderers, their fastest, bounciest pitch, and averaged 70 there, passing 50 3 times. If a batsman averaged 36 in Australia and averaged 70 at the WACA you’d have a hard time arguing they couldn’t handle bounce or pace.

There’s no argument you can make that states, factually ‘Sourav Ganguly could not handle fast, bouncy or seaming conditions.’

 

[JimmyBC]

30. With a century.
And of all those players he’s probably the hardest to make a case for.

So essentially:

• he’s not just thrived, he’s dominated England.
• He’s proven he can bat in Australia
• he’s struggled in NZ but still managed a century there
• he averaged 36 in SA. if you want to break it down, he batted 4 times at Wanderers, their fastest, bounciest pitch, and averaged 70 there, passing 50 3 times. If a batsman averaged 36 in Australia and averaged 70 at the WACA you’d have a hard time arguing they couldn’t handle bounce or pace.

There’s no argument you can make that states, factually ‘Sourav Ganguly could not handle fast, bouncy or seaming conditions.’

He has a sub 40 average in South Africa, Australia & New Zealand if he was Australian he wouldn't get a game especially in that era.

 

[PhatBoy]

He has a sub 40 average in South Africa, Australia & New Zealand if he was Australian he wouldn't get a game especially in that era.

Well there’s two ways to look at that.
For starters, saying an Indian who was an excellent but not all time great batsman wouldn’t get a game for arguably the greatest team the game has seen, based on his AWAY record in THAT team’s country, is hardly a unique claim is it.

Secondly.

If he was Australian going to the subcontinent in that era his name would probably have been Justin Langer, who averaged over 40 in just one of India (29, no centuries), Pakistan (48, 1 century), Sri Lanka (32, 1 century) and the UAE, 20 (0 centuries). So yeah, in that scenario, he WOULD have gotten a game for that Australian side.

Any other claims you want to make while we are here that I can nip in the bud? I can keep going.

 

[JimmyBC]

Well there’s two ways to look at that.
For starters, saying an Indian who was an excellent but not all time great batsman wouldn’t get a game for arguably the greatest team the game has seen, based on his AWAY record in THAT team’s country, is hardly a unique claim is it.

Well I mentioned 3 countries South Africa, New Zealand & Australia..

Yea keep it going what was Azharuddin's ave in Australia? genuinely have no idea.

 

[gtrxuone]

Most of the Indian people I know.Have accepted the loss and conceded that Au ,where better in the final.
It's been a great start to the week.And will continue for a while yet.
Still can't get Heads catch out of my head.Really knocked the wind out of India's sails.

 

[Plugger35]

One of the best innings I have seen from an Indian batsman in Australia was this hundred from Tendulkar in the Boxing Day test in 1999.




The Aussie bowlers went through the rest of the Indian batting line up like a dose of salts on a fast bouncy pitch but Tendulkar stood tall.

India have had a lot of great batsmen over the years but Tendulkar is the best of them, he could make a good score on any pitch anywhere.

Everyone beats India in England.

Not everyone and even England have lost to India numerous times in England.

 

[PhatBoy]

Well I mentioned 3 countries South Africa, New Zealand & Australia..

Yea keep it going what was Azharuddin's ave in Australia? genuinely have no idea.

27 and I can only imagine how poor it was before he finished with a century and a 90 in his last two matches here in Adelaide and Perth discussed earlier in the thread but again he had a century in SA and had no trouble at all in England and NZ.

On Ganguly I probably got it wrong. He wouldn’t replace Langer at all in a ‘roles reversed’ situation.’ He’d just straight out replace Hayden because he actually probably, Australia aside, had a better record in the SENA countries.

He had a better average in NZ than Hayden, and he hit a century there. Hayden never did.
Their averages in SA were identical.
He hit 3 centuries in England to Hayden’s one, and his average was 27 runs higher, so yeah, they could have just dressed him up like ‘the big Doss’ whenever they got on a plane and hoped they were going to England basically.

The thing is mate unless you are talking about the absolute cream of the crop - and you need to remember that even Ponting (India), Lara (India), Tendulkar almost drops below 40 in Pakistan, Waugh (NZ) etc - they all have places where they have an oddly mediocre record that doesn’t necessarily reflect an ACTUAL weakness in their game (I mean seriously, Lara weak against spin????), no players, have foolproof records in ALL countries.

To assess if someone can or can’t play a certain kind of bowling you need to look beyond just ‘oh was he shithouse in Australia?’

Graeme Smith finished his career with a mediocre record against Australia who along with England boasted the best pace attacks during his career (aside from SA obviously). A closer look tells you that he was thrown in as a kid against Australia at the peak of their powers and struggled but still made a couple of gutsy 50s from memory, came back and destroyed England multiple times, came back against Australia a better player, led his team to a ridiculous win here making a fourth innings century at Perth to chase 400, made another 75 to chase a target in Melbourne, and batted one-handed just to say ‘f*** you’ in Sydney.
Then a few years later he made another fourth innings hundred to win his team a test after they’d earlier been bowled out for under 100 in the same match.
He returned to Australia a few years later and made another crucial hundred at Adelaide after his side had somehow scrounged a draw in Brisbane against the odds, facing an Australian first innings of 550, which ultimately helped them to another draw. They went on to clinch another series win in perth (where he made 84).

At the back end of his career he had another disastrous series against the Aussies and retired.

So he finishes with an average of 32 against Australia.

You’d look at that and say ‘well obviously he couldn’t handle the big bad Aussies could he.’

On closer inspection he along with Dale Steyn were the pivotal figures in dethroning a side, being lead by peak Mitchell Johnson, who hadn’t lost a home series in 16 years and he clearly proved he could play against them both home and away

 

[Mockcockpit]

Azzhuriddin didn't get 90 in Perth that series, he got 11 and 24. Tendulkar got 114 of the best runs I've ever seen live.

 

[PhatBoy]

Azzhuriddin didn't get 90 in Perth that series, he got 11 and 24. Tendulkar got 114 of the best runs I've ever seen live.

Fair enough, I took Gough on faith with that one. He definitely made 106 the match before it.

And Tendulkar absolutely did make that beautiful century in Perth though I remember a lot more of the 140-odd in Sydney

 

[Gough]

Fair enough, I took Gough on faith with that one. He definitely made 106 the match before it.

And Tendulkar absolutely did make that beautiful century in Perth though I remember a lot more of the 140-odd in Sydney

I remember Azhar as just missing out on a hundred here that year, I was wrong. He'd been in rotten form all tour and Adelaide was his only good knock.