Training 2023 Pre Season

[phantom13]

Well I still say it depends on a couple of things. If it’s long kick outs then I think he should. If his opponent is taking the mark then maybe he should. If it’s find a short target then it’s a no. I would think until we get done talls back in the forward line we will be kicking long and killing it create a stoppage. Can’t see us playing to quickly with no tall forwards. What’s the point.

No

 

[plugger66]

No

Can I have a a couple of reasons for the no especially if he is kicking long. He is a very good long kick and it’s much better he is closer to goal than being maybe 80 metres from his opponent

 

[gringo2011]

Ok reading it now on here. A huge beat up by the paper to suggest he is taking kings spot. More likely heaths spot at sandy and I mean his spot on the bench.

Oh, I think they were suggesting Owens will fill in as a tall forward. The articles are pretty vague after making out like we'd declared someone the replacement.

 

[phantom13]

Can I have a a couple of reasons for the no especially if he is kicking long. He is a very good long kick and it’s much better he is closer to goal than being maybe 80 metres from his opponent

1- because he’s not a good long kick, he lacks penetration and he’s slow to take the kick (he waddles out of the square mosies 5m of extra distance then pumps it long usually not even to a pack, just to an oppo player)
2- given he’s big and handy in contest we’d be better with him either being a target or pushing straight back to stop the ball being rebounded off the turnover
3- he’s one of our worst decision makers with ball in hand. The feigning handballs and turning himself in circles instead of just kicking or hand balling is terrible

He shouldn’t ever be kicking in.

 

[plugger66]

Oh, I think they were suggesting Owens will fill in as a tall forward. The articles are pretty vague after making out like we'd declared someone the replacement.

Fair enough. Couldn’t read it. Owens is more likely than the other guy. He probably won’t even make the list.

 

[gringo2011]

1- because he’s not a good long kick, he lacks penetration and he’s slow to take the kick (he waddles out of the square mosies 5m of extra distance then pumps it long usually not even to a pack, just to an oppo player)
2- given he’s big and handy in contest we’d be better with him either being a target or pushing straight back to stop the ball being rebounded off the turnover
3- he’s one of our worst decision makers with ball in hand. The feigning handballs and turning himself in circles instead of just kicking or hand balling is terrible

He shouldn’t ever be kicking in.

There are times where he might have to to move the ball quickly before the opposition set up but generally he's been poor kicking in. He seems to take too long and unravels under pressure or is slow to decide on an option.

Maybe if we have set plays where there aren't multiple creative options available he won't have as many issues. One of the things that I think Ratts lacked was a suite of set plays forward and back. Perhaps Lyon would prefer to use his fullback as the kick out so he can zone up then have a player slip out into space. I don't think I'll ever feel comfortable when I see him take the ball behind the goal line.

 

[gringo2011]

Fair enough. Couldn’t read it. Owens is more likely than the other guy. He probably won’t even make the list.

Yeah, can't really see him walking into the best 22 straight away. Sounds like Sharman more than King anyway.

 

[BrutThough]

Dougal and kick ins is as overstated as him not being able to defend one-on-one.

He is a good long kick and sometimes will be the best choice if we just want to roost it out of defence. You also don't want him too far away from the goal square if that's where is direct opponent because in the likely event of a turnover (which is common from kick ins league wide, not just when Dougal kicks), you want him in the best position to defend. David King ran the numbers last year and teams only score directly from kick ins 3-6% of the time so keeping a good defence structure is necessary and our best structure tends to be when he as the deepest defender so he will occasionally need to be the one to take a kick in.

 

[phantom13]

There are times where he might have to to move the ball quickly before the opposition set up but generally he's been poor kicking in. He seems to take too long and unravels under pressure or is slow to decide on an option.

Maybe if we have set plays where there aren't multiple creative options available he won't have as many issues. One of the things that I think Ratts lacked was a suite of set plays forward and back. Perhaps Lyon would prefer to use his fullback as the kick out so he can zone up then have a player slip out into space. I don't think I'll ever feel comfortable when I see him take the ball behind the goal line.

He takes too long and his kicking isn’t quick. He can kick long but it hangs in the air.

Essentially everything about his kicking (slow to make a decision, slow to execute, ball is slow through the air) is the antithesis of what you want from a kick in.

This isn’t a knock on Dougal as a player, he just shouldn’t be kicking in, it’s a specialized skill and one that just isn’t in his kitbag.

 

[plugger66]

1- because he’s not a good long kick, he lacks penetration and he’s slow to take the kick (he waddles out of the square mosies 5m of extra distance then pumps it long usually not even to a pack, just to an oppo player)
2- given he’s big and handy in contest we’d be better with him either being a target or pushing straight back to stop the ball being rebounded off the turnover
3- he’s one of our worst decision makers with ball in hand. The feigning handballs and turning himself in circles instead of just kicking or hand balling is terrible

He shouldn’t ever be kicking in.

Well firstly I disagree with point one. He is a good low long kick. Not sure he hits anyone when going long which is the idea. Point 2. You don’t want your full back 80 metres from his opponent if the forward is on the mark. A quick turnover and you are stuffed. Point 3 isn’t really relevant to long kick ins. I have no idea how we will play from full back but if we do go long on occasions I expect him to kick in a few times. Not sure why you want him as a target and then you mention point 3. Seems to counteract the purpose of it.

 

[phantom13]

Dougal and kick ins is as overstated as him not being able to defend one-on-one.

He is a good long kick and sometimes will be the best choice if we just want to roost it out of defence. You also don't want him too far away from the goal square if that's where is direct opponent because in the likely event of a turnover (which is common from kick ins league wide, not just when Dougal kicks), you want him in the best position to defend. David King ran the numbers last year and teams only score directly from kick ins 3-6% of the time so keeping a good defence structure is necessary and our best structure tends to be when he as the deepest defender so he will occasionally need to be the one to take a kick in.

He’s an average long kick not a good one. He can kick long but it’s slow and he’s slow to move it on.

I’m suggesting he’s either a target (which is a risk) or he’s a player that is part of the 30-50m group so he can get back if it’s turned over (staying defensive minded).

It’s not at all overstated, he’s a poor kick in choice (I agree the one on one stuff is overrated, he’s a very good defender)

 

[plugger66]

There are times where he might have to to move the ball quickly before the opposition set up but generally he's been poor kicking in. He seems to take too long and unravels under pressure or is slow to decide on an option.

Maybe if we have set plays where there aren't multiple creative options available he won't have as many issues. One of the things that I think Ratts lacked was a suite of set plays forward and back. Perhaps Lyon would prefer to use his fullback as the kick out so he can zone up then have a player slip out into space. I don't think I'll ever feel comfortable when I see him take the ball behind the goal line.

Slow is fine if we want to play slow. Get numbers to the drop of the ball and create a stoppage. You don’t want him at the stoppage so you don’t want him being the target. He ain’t going to mark it.

 

[phantom13]

Well firstly I disagree with point one. He is a good low long kick. Not sure he hits anyone when going long which is the idea. Point 2. You don’t want your full back 80 metres from his opponent if the forward is on the mark. A quick turnover and you are stuffed. Point 3 isn’t really relevant to long kick ins. I have no idea how we will play from full back but if we do go long on occasions I expect him to kick in a few times. Not sure why you want him as a target and then you mention point 3. Seems to counteract the purpose of it.

He’s either a target depending on the play given he’s tall and athletic and usually at least splits a contest OR he stays close to goal.

The latter is my preference as he’s a better defender that attacking player.

Point 3 is absolutely relevant, a player kicking in has time to make a decision and execute it, something he’s terrible at. Plus he loves to walk himself into pressure. How many times does he **** about and wind up losing the 15m start then have to blind turn nothing and get smothered? If he just got the footy, ran his 15 and roosted the footy I could get behind it but I’m not sure ive ever seen him do that.

 

[phantom13]

Slow is fine if we want to play slow. Get numbers to the drop of the ball and create a stoppage. You don’t want him at the stoppage so you don’t want him being the target. He ain’t going to mark it.

If we’re kicking long to a pack he doesn’t have to mark it he just needs to make sure they don’t (which he is very good at).

In any event that’s not where I’d have him anyway. Stand next to the bloke on the mark from the kick ins to give someone who should actually be doing it a couple of extra metres.

I’ll say the one time I’d be okay with him doing it. When he is standing next to the bag and can grab one, SPRINT his 15 from the square and kick it as long as he can. The problem is he never ever does that. If Ross can drill him to do that and not ****ing dawdle out of the square I could get behind it.

 

[BrutThough]

He’s an average long kick not a good one. He can kick long but it’s slow and he’s slow to move it on.

I’m suggesting he’s either a target (which is a risk) or he’s a player that is part of the 30-50m group so he can get back if it’s turned over (staying defensive minded).

It’s not at all overstated, he’s a poor kick in choice (I agree the one on one stuff is overrated, he’s a very good defender)

I disagree that he is a poor choice. Sometimes, he is the best choice for the situation. Out of the defenders he is probably the longest kick so if we wanted to just clear the area, I'd go with him over Sinclair who took our most kick ins last year. I'd also prefer he is slightly slower if he is waiting for Marshall/King to get to the area he is kicking in that just moving it on at speed for the sake of being quick.

I'm not saying he should take every kick in but saying he should never take kicks in does ignore that his skill set is suited to some situations more so than the better, more precise kick in defence.

 

[gringo2011]

He takes too long and his kicking isn’t quick. He can kick long but it hangs in the air.

Essentially everything about his kicking (slow to make a decision, slow to execute, ball is slow through the air) is the antithesis of what you want from a kick in.

This isn’t a knock on Dougal as a player, he just shouldn’t be kicking in, it’s a specialized skill and one that just isn’t in his kitbag.

I think he slows down too much. If he could take the first option he'd be fine. In general play his long kicking is very neat. Hopefully if he does kick out we are really pushing him to move faster. There are a few players who seem to stop rapid movement. It can surely be trained out of them. Seb Ross was awful in 2021 when he tried to slow the ball down and think too long. Last year he seemed to go back to playing on instinct and returned to being a valuable player.

 

[phantom13]

I disagree that he is a poor choice. Sometimes, he is the best choice for the situation. Out of the defenders he is probably the longest kick so if we wanted to just clear the area, I'd go with him over Sinclair who took our most kick ins last year. I'd also prefer he is slightly slower if he is waiting for Marshall/King to get to the area he is kicking in that just moving it on at speed for the sake of being quick.

I'm not saying he should take every kick in but saying he should never take kicks in does ignore that his skill set is suited to some situations more so than the better, more precise kick in defence.

Look I’ve probably overstated it a bit and gringo2011 (and my last post) shows there’s a scenario where he makes sense, my issue with that is I’ve literally never seen him do it.

Clearing the area is fine but that means pace on the ball, something has always been terrible at. He’s slow with ball in hand, he’s slow to make decisions and his actual kicking is slow in the air so when he does his thing it doesn’t clear the area or break a line because everyone has adjusted to the drop zone because he’s given them so much time to do it.

 

[gringo2011]

I disagree that he is a poor choice. Sometimes, he is the best choice for the situation. Out of the defenders he is probably the longest kick so if we wanted to just clear the area, I'd go with him over Sinclair who took our most kick ins last year. I'd also prefer he is slightly slower if he is waiting for Marshall/King to get to the area he is kicking in that just moving it on at speed for the sake of being quick.

I'm not saying he should take every kick in but saying he should never take kicks in does ignore that his skill set is suited to some situations more so than the better, more precise kick in defence.

My mental image of him kicking in, is him standing looking around for an easy option, getting called to play-on, trying to twist and turn to sell some candy and getting pinged HTB. Then making a display of blaming his teammates for not being in good spots.

 

[plugger66]

He’s either a target depending on the play given he’s tall and athletic and usually at least splits a contest OR he stays close to goal.

The latter is my preference as he’s a better defender that attacking player.

Point 3 is absolutely relevant, a player kicking in has time to make a decision and execute it, something he’s terrible at. Plus he loves to walk himself into pressure. How many times does he * about and wind up losing the 15m start then have to blind turn nothing and get smothered? If he just got the footy, ran his 15 and roosted the footy I could get behind it but I’m not sure ive ever seen him do that.

But my point is it isn’t relevant if the play is just a long kick to a contest to cause a stoppage. How does point 3 affect that. I’m failing to see. That seems more like when he has the ball in play.

 

[phantom13]

My mental image of him kicking in, is him standing looking around for an easy option, getting called to play-on, trying to twist and turn to sell some candy and getting pinged HTB. Then making a display of blaming his teammates for not being in good spots.

Ditto.

That or winding up have to kick over the bloke on the mark 5 m to the left or right of the square and roosting is 60m long to 6 of them and 2 of us then watching a forward mark it 30 out and spraying everyone for not getting back to cover for him.

 

[gringo2011]

Look over probably overstated it a bit and gringo2011 (and my last post) shows there’s a scenario where he makes sense, my issue with that is I’ve literally never seen him do it.

Clearing the area is fine but that means pace on the ball, something has always been terrible at. He’s slow with ball in hand, he’s slow to make decisions and his actual kicking is slow in the air so when he does his thing it doesn’t clear the area or break a line because everyone has adjusted to the drop zone because he’s given them so much time to do it.

It sounds like Lyon wants to speed up play so perhaps that's freeing the HB runners and trying to chip it over to them to run with the wings peeling in behind. It seems like he wants us to take some risks by the sound of it too. We might have to hope he can improve his kicking in. He made Zac Dawson into a really valuable player and I reckon they have similar qualities. Both tall, both have pace off a step and closing speed....and both big spoil first types.

 

[phantom13]

But my point is it isn’t relevant if the play is just a long kick to a contest to cause a stoppage. How does point 3 affect that. I’m failing to see. That seems more like when he has the ball in play.

Because it doesn’t cause a stoppage when you give them time to get more numbers and structure at a contest. It works if you get it to a contest quickly and we can either win or split it. That doesn’t happen when you burn 15 seconds ****ing about and giving them time to shift their structure to the spot he’s been forced to kick to, you need to spread a defensive zone with some pace on the ball.

 

[plugger66]

I think he slows down too much. If he could take the first option he'd be fine. In general play his long kicking is very neat. Hopefully if he does kick out we are really pushing him to move faster. There are a few players who seem to stop rapid movement. It can surely be trained out of them. Seb Ross was awful in 2021 when he tried to slow the ball down and think too long. Last year he seemed to go back to playing on instinct and returned to being a valuable player.

I’m not sure if you actually read when I think he should kick in. I never siggested he takes it if we want quick play which then suggests a target. That can be a better precise kick. Slow play to a contest is when I’m very happy for him to kick in especially if his opponent is on the mark.

 

[phantom13]

I’m not sure if you actually read when I think he should kick in. I never siggested he takes it if we want quick play which then suggests a target. That can be a better precise kick. Slow play to a contest is when I’m very happy for him to kick in especially if his opponent is on the mark.

Slow play to contest is the worst option avaliable, if we’re playing slow you want to retain possesion. If you’re going to a contest it should be quicker.

 

[plugger66]

My mental image of him kicking in, is him standing looking around for an easy option, getting called to play-on, trying to twist and turn to sell some candy and getting pinged HTB. Then making a display of blaming his teammates for not being in good spots.

Yes and no one is suggesting he takes that kick.