Training 2023 Pre Season

[Saintos The ITK]

Saw that in match sim today Dougal was still taking the kickouts and bombing it to packs for turnovers and shots on goal lol. Shame we haven't addressed this.

We
Will.
I
Reckon he’s been set up
For a feedback session with Ross.

 

[70s sainter]

Don't want to get involved in the kick in debate but would like to talk about Billings.

An underachiever for a no.3, unfairly compared to Bont, looks vanilla even when getting 30 possessions and kicking 5 goals (did that once v Carlton and I hardly noticed him) and there is a perception that he is soft (not soft but not a hard man).

In saying that, if a fit Billings is in our bottom 6 we are going pretty good and with a better team around him, could well flourish. Is 28 knows his game, and that experience and has played over 150 games. Could surprise a few.

Hopefully fitness is the the thing that has him playing good footy again . Was it last year or the year before? where he was nothing more than a fringe player. Void of all confidence. Couldn’t kick over a jam tin .
Would be nice to see him play his last few years somewhat justifying his top ten pick .

 

[saintmike65]

BUT THATS THE ONLY KICK HE EVER TAKES!

You’re advocating for him to do something we’ve not seen him actuallt do. If he can then great, I’d agree but im judging on what I’ve seen him actually do, what I know he’s capable of.

If Ross has turned him into a guy that can take kickouts differently to what he’s shown for 2 years then sure, sign me up to doogs as the DK from full back.

Why the hell does Howard take the kick outs in the first place?

 

[saintmike65]

Hopefully fitness is the the thing that has him playing good footy again . Was it last year or the year before? where he was nothing more than a fringe player. Void of all confidence. Couldn’t kick over a jam tin .
Would be nice to see him play his last few years somewhat justifying his top ten pick .

Typical safe pick by trout…Bontempelli was screaming up the draft rankings!

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Fair enough. Couldn’t read it. Owens is more likely than the other guy. He probably won’t even make the list.

I hope he gets the gig. With Alison out long term we need someone to fill the role of "spud who will never get a game, who we can use as a reason to bitch about recruiting".

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I think he kicked 4 against the dogs once. I remember him in that game. No idea about the 5 against Carlton.

Its going back a ways.

AFL Tables - Jack Billings - Stats - Statistics

 

[saintmike65]

I disagree that he is a poor choice. Sometimes, he is the best choice for the situation. Out of the defenders he is probably the longest kick so if we wanted to just clear the area, I'd go with him over Sinclair who took our most kick ins last year. I'd also prefer he is slightly slower if he is waiting for Marshall/King to get to the area he is kicking in that just moving it on at speed for the sake of being quick.

I'm not saying he should take every kick in but saying he should never take kicks in does ignore that his skill set is suited to some situations more so than the better, more precise kick in defence.

Kick in options Stocker, Sinclair, Webster, Paton, Coffield & Wilkie…enough options there I would’ve thought!

 

[puppy_dog7]

Kick in options Stocker, Sinclair, Webster, Paton, Coffield & Wilkie…enough options there I would’ve thought!

You’re forgetting Josh Battle. For me it’s Sincs, Battle, Coff & Jweb for kick in duties.

 

[saintmike65]

Did I miss Campbell being injured? * Achilles isn’t good when he’s our only Marshall backup outside of second year players

Tom has only been running laps and working on the exercise bike for some time now..his Achilles must be a real issue.

 

[saintmike65]

You’re forgetting Josh Battle. For me it’s Sincs, Battle, Coff & Jweb for kick in duties.

Yes my bad..Battle is a lovely field kick either foot!

 

[Tyrian Lonestar]

We
Will.
I
Reckon he’s been set up
For a feedback session with Ross.

Hope your right on this

 

[plugger66]

Typical safe pick by trout…Bontempelli was screaming up the draft rankings!

Billings was safe because he was clearly rated higher than bont. Was McCartin a typically safe pick? Was Horne Francis a safe pick. I’d suggest most top 5 players are safe picks. Bont wasn’t rated 4 by anyone until a couple found out the dogs were picking him. Rated 9 a week before the draft by 2 draft experts.

 

[plugger66]

We
Will.
I
Reckon he’s been set up
For a feedback session with Ross.

So you think they haven’t discussed it already? Surely the players don’t just do as they feel. Lyon and Enright would be telling a player not to kick out if they don’t want him to.

 

[phantom13]

I just mentioned players kicking goals from bombing. I didn’t say to do it. It was more about how smalls can kick goals. If you don’t think in last years footy there wasn’t slow plays on occasions from full back you weren’t watching. Any coach worth their salt wants slow plays if another side has a run on. A slow play can be a contest and then a stoppage or it can be chipping to uncontested players. It is certainly a strategy. That I’m 100% sure of. I do agree it’s a last resort to bomb to a small forward line. You can play slow and not bomb. And I never said you mentioned pin pointing. That was me and only me and that’s how I see it.

Im not arguing it doesnt happen, i never have, im arguing that NO team should be intentionally doing slow play by long bombs from a kickout by choice.

Its a pure set play opportunity so willingly doing something that, even when it works, results in a nuetral outcome is not what anyone would choose. It happens in general play because youve run out of options, its last resort, it, by design, cannot be the only option you have from a kickout unless youve ****ed up.

I agree on slow play for momentum etc. but again, youre much much better off if you can retain possession to slow the game down. Long kicks to contest is again the option you take when all other options are gone. Thats why teams with small leads look to chip first and then go long down the line when all free players are covered, they dont take that option first because its a bad option (especially when you have no talls outside your back 6 which we sort of do).

Youre advocating for long slow kick to contest from a kickout as an actual option, not a last resort, youre wrong or youve explained yourself poorly.

All snide comments and potshots aside youre saying you think Dougal kicking long and slow to a contest from a kickout is a viable strategy and its just not, its worst case scenario.

 

[phantom13]

Kick in options Stocker, Sinclair, Webster, Paton, Coffield & Wilkie…enough options there I would’ve thought!

Not Stocker, hes not a good kick (unless hes drastically improved that while he was playing at Northern)

Id also add Hill in there as a quick play option, hit the first one and use a burst run to get up the ground for a link. Im loathe to say it too cause i dont like Brad Hill at all but this is playing to his strengths.

 

[plugger66]

Im not arguing it doesnt happen, i never have, im arguing that NO team should be intentionally doing slow play by long bombs from a kickout by choice.

Its a pure set play opportunity so willingly doing something that, even when it works, results in a nuetral outcome is not what anyone would choose. It happens in general play because youve run out of options, its last resort, it, by design, cannot be the only option you have from a kickout unless youve ****ed up.

I agree on slow play for momentum etc. but again, youre much much better off if you can retain possession to slow the game down. Long kicks to contest is again the option you take when all other options are gone. Thats why teams with small leads look to chip first and then go long down the line when all free players are covered, they dont take that option first because its a bad option (especially when you have no talls outside your back 6 which we sort of do).

Youre advocating for long slow kick to contest from a kickout as an actual option, not a last resort, youre wrong or youve explained yourself poorly.

All snide comments and potshots aside youre saying you think Dougal kicking long and slow to a contest from a kickout is a viable strategy and its just not, its worst case scenario.

Yes I honestly do think that. Let’s say there is an average of 13 kick outs a game. No idea where I got that figure but let’s go with it I’m happy for him to kick out 2 or 3 times for the following reasons. You think he kicks too high. I think he is a low long kick so when we want it long to a contest he can do it. If he is the only one close to goals which doesn’t happen very often at all he probably has to do it. If his opponent is on the mark he may do it on small occasions. There are many more times I don’t want him kicking out to wanting him kicking out. If as George says he did it in match sim that suggests to me two things one which I think is crazy. Lyon and Enright haven’t spoken to him about not kicking out. Find that laughable with how much work Lyon does on every little thing or the other is they are happy for him to do it and it’s a bigger issue to us than them. And I’m happy how I explained myself. Brut seems to have understood it. But hey you are right apparently. And even if it’s a last resort which I don’t agree with it’s still a strategy. It would be trained for.

 

[BrutThough]

Kick in options Stocker, Sinclair, Webster, Paton, Coffield & Wilkie…enough options there I would’ve thought!

Yes, very good to have multiple options for kick ins.

It would be dumb to exclude the longest kick and the preferred deepest defender from the possible options. Especially when your complaint he is a poor kick while also listing worse kicks as options.

 

[phantom13]

Yes I honestly do think that. Let’s say there is an average of 13 kick outs a game. No idea where I got that figure but let’s go with it I’m happy for him to kick out 2 or 3 times for the following reasons. You think he kicks too high. I think he is a low long kick so when we want it long to a contest he can do it. If he is the only one close to goals which doesn’t happen very often at all he probably has to do it. If his opponent is on the mark he may do it on small occasions. There are many more times I don’t want him kicking out to wanting him kicking out. If as George says he did it in match sim that suggests to me two things one which I think is crazy. Lyon and Enright haven’t spoken to him about not kicking out. Find that laughable with how much work Lyon does on every little thing or the other is they are happy for him to do it and it’s a bigger issue to us than them. And I’m happy how I explained myself. Brut seems to have understood it. But hey you are right apparently.

Hes not a long low kick and he doesnt get it on quickly, youve admitted as much and tried to say that was a positive so which one is it?

Cause a quick long kick im onboard with (Doogs doesnt do that, its just silly to say he does, thats not saying he cant do it, but he never has) but a slow long kick from a kickout when every other option is available is bad footy.

I dont think anyone is suggesting hes not going to take kickout or that we havent planned for that, were noting that if he stays as he has done in previous years (**** about, walk himself into a pocket and then hoof it high down the line) its a terrible option. If Ross and co. have drilled it that he gets the ball and goes hard and fast with a long kick then great, im here for it.

Youre asking for more of the same from him which has been varying shades of bad.

 

[Joffaboy]

Billings was safe because he was clearly rated higher than bont. Was McCartin a typically safe pick? Was Horne Francis a safe pick. I’d suggest most top 5 players are safe picks. Bont wasn’t rated 4 by anyone until a couple found out the dogs were picking him. Rated 9 a week before the draft by 2 draft experts.

Why wasn't Max King taken higher? Why wasn't Bailey Smith? Phillipou? Sometimes it is better to have a top ten pick but not necessarily right up the top.
Cant blame anyone for Billings, was a good pick at the time.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[plugger66]

Hes not a long low kick and he doesnt get it on quickly, youve admitted as much and tried to say that was a positive so which one is it?

Cause a quick long kick im onboard with (Doogs doesnt do that, its just silly to say he does, thats not saying he cant do it, but he never has) but a slow long kick from a kickout when every other option is available is bad footy.

I dont think anyone is suggesting hes not going to take kickout or that we havent planned for that, were noting that if he stays as he has done in previous years (* about, walk himself into a pocket and then hoof it high down the line) its a terrible option. If Ross and co. have drilled it that he gets the ball and goes hard and fast with a long kick then great, im here for it.

Youre asking for more of the same from him which has been varying shades of bad.

Making things up again. I’ve said at least 3 times he is a long low kick. If I said a slow kick I meant slow play. I thought I have been saying slow play. You like nit picking. I’m sure you know I’ve said long low kick so it’s only one option. Low kick. Slow play. To different things. Whilst on not picking I’m nearly certain you said he should never kick out ever. Then you changed your mind. I’m happy to say when I want him kicking out and have said it since I commented to jb. You are telling me what he did last year. Whilst interesting I haven’t once suggested he does all the things he did last year after all he kicked out a lot last year. I’m suggesting he keeps one of the things he did last year when the game needs it to be done. Maybe he will do what you suggest he should do when he kicks out. Actually I’m not sure what you suggest he does when he kicks out because you think he has too many faults to kick out.

 

[plugger66]

Might have to disregard Arryn siposs. A bit of back peddling from the father in law. I’m confused now. He could be on a flight to see no one.

 

[phantom13]

Making things up again. I’ve said at least 3 times he is a long low kick. If I said a slow kick I meant slow play. I thought I have been saying slow play. You like nit picking. I’m sure you know I’ve said long low kick so it’s only one option. Low kick. Slow play. To different things. Whilst on not picking I’m nearly certain you said he should never kick out ever. Then you changed your mind. I’m happy to say when I want him kicking out and have said it since I commented to jb. You are telling me what he did last year. Whilst interesting I haven’t once suggested he does all the things he did last year after all he kicked out a lot last year. I’m suggesting he keeps one of the things he did last year when the game needs it to be done. Maybe he will do what you suggest he should do when he kicks out. Actually I’m not sure what you suggest he does when he kicks out because you think he has too many faults to kick out.

Ffs, you’re a battler.

If he can move quick and kick long and fast then he can be an option, on evidence of him kicking out he can’t do that. Until he shows he can (at training) he shouldn’t be allowed near a kick out. If he shows he can then I’d be all for it.

Saying someone hasn’t done something isn’t saying they can’t. It’s saying I’d wanna see some evidence before letting him do it again.

Anyway you can’t decide if it’s a slow play or a quick play and want to pretend he’s shown he can do both so you do you.

I reckon every time I engage with you I forget how pointless it is. I’ll try not to forget again.

 

[plugger66]

He has been activated, which they only get 8 activations off injury list for the entire year. Using one on a punter is unusual so read into that what you may. Won’t be official until next week when final team is announced.



Then this one minute later
Relax. Buy your hotdogs


You decide if he is playing.

 

[plugger66]

Ffs, you’re a battler.

If he can move quick and kick long and fast then he can be an option, on evidence of him kicking out he can’t do that. Until he shows he can (at training) he shouldn’t be allowed near a kick out. If he shows he can then I’d be all for it.

Saying someone hasn’t done something isn’t saying they can’t. It’s saying I’d wanna see some evidence before letting him do it again.

Anyway you can’t decide if it’s a slow play or a quick play and want to pretend he’s shown he can do both so you do you.

I reckon every time I engage with you I forget how pointless it is. I’ll try not to forget again.

Haha. My head is spinning. You are in every camp or no camp. You better get a new get out when you are struggling. You have done that to death considering 20 posts ago was you last one. Luckily brut gets it. It’s not that hard to understand. For a nit picker you do make some strange comments. I know you have finished with me but just incase you haven’t why is he kicking out with all these faults. Could it be they don’t see it as a big issue?

 

[lewdogs]

In my opinion something we need to realise is Ratts wasn't a shocking match day coach. There will be elements of his plan that we retain. The reason he was sacked was around professional standards more than game plan I think. He won about half the games at the club while coaching.

The main way we will improve in the short term will be players either stepping up or having better luck with injury. The improved standards will take some time to make significant improvements on field. Things like changing who kicks out just doesn't make that big a difference.

If Windy steps up and Jones, Clark, Marshall and Billings have uninterrupted seasons, that will be what makes a huge difference.