Training 2023 Pre Season

[phantom13]

We saw what stop, hold, kick long to a contest did for us last year. It was rarely if ever good.

 

[BrutThough]

Look I’ve probably overstated it a bit and gringo2011 (and my last post) shows there’s a scenario where he makes sense, my issue with that is I’ve literally never seen him do it.

Clearing the area is fine but that means pace on the ball, something has always been terrible at. He’s slow with ball in hand, he’s slow to make decisions and his actual kicking is slow in the air so when he does his thing it doesn’t clear the area or break a line because everyone has adjusted to the drop zone because he’s given them so much time to do it.

Clearing the area doesn't always mean moving quickly. Sometimes you want to get numbers to the area and congest it up to take time off the clock or force a stoppage.

 

[plugger66]

Slow play to contest is the worst option avaliable, if we’re playing slow you want to retain possesion. If you’re going to a contest it should be quicker.

Why? That makes no sense to me. We want a stoppage so we want numbers and some talls. They have to come from the forwards and rucks.

 

[phantom13]

Yes and no one is suggesting he takes that kick.

BUT THATS THE ONLY KICK HE EVER TAKES!

You’re advocating for him to do something we’ve not seen him actuallt do. If he can then great, I’d agree but im judging on what I’ve seen him actually do, what I know he’s capable of.

If Ross has turned him into a guy that can take kickouts differently to what he’s shown for 2 years then sure, sign me up to doogs as the DK from full back.

 

[BrutThough]

My mental image of him kicking in, is him standing looking around for an easy option, getting called to play-on, trying to twist and turn to sell some candy and getting pinged HTB. Then making a display of blaming his teammates for not being in good spots.

Sounds like you've taken a few bad moments from him and projected that onto all his kick ins.

 

[gringo2011]

I’m not sure if you actually read when I think he should kick in. I never siggested he takes it if we want quick play which then suggests a target. That can be a better precise kick. Slow play to a contest is when I’m very happy for him to kick in especially if his opponent is on the mark.

You can't really afford to wait and hold up these days unless you want it to come back quickly. You are better to chip short and wide than go long down the line -unless you are 3 points down with 2 minutes to play or something.

 

[plugger66]

Ditto.

That or winding up have to kick over the bloke on the mark 5 m to the left or right of the square and roosting is 60m long to 6 of them and 2 of us then watching a forward mark it 30 out and spraying everyone for not getting back to cover for him.

Yep probably went to quickly and we couldn’t get numbers there.

 

[phantom13]

Clearing the area doesn't always mean moving quickly. Sometimes you want to get numbers to the area and congest it up to take time off the clock or force a stoppage.

If you’re kicking to a contest you know the oppo will have more numbers and better structure at then you’re not clearing the area.

It’s not 1998 anymore, defensive zones from kickouts means they will have more numbers and better structure around the ball if you take your sweet ass time to get it there.

The alternative is you push everyone defensively up to where that slow contest is and then we’re properly ****ed if we lose it.

 

[phantom13]

Yep probably went to quickly and we couldn’t get numbers there.

No…

Look it’s a fundamental disagreement about how ball movement works. I’m pretty happy with my position so this is pointless. You wanna go long amd slow to a contest, great. I don’t.

 

[phantom13]

Why? That makes no sense to me. We want a stoppage so we want numbers and some talls. They have to come from the forwards and rucks.

I’m wrapping it up now but for clarity.

You don’t get a stoppage from a slow kickout. The opposition will have their defensive structure and can shift it to where the ball drops if they know it’s coming. They get the ball to ground, they will have more numbers (because we can’t push our defenders up in case of a turnover) and they’ll have players behind the ball and in the corridor to play it on.

The scenario you’re discussing relies on a contested mark from us or a spoil to the boundary. If it comes to ground (which it usually does) we’re cooked and it’s a turnover likely resulting in a shot at goal, not a stoppage.

Move it quickly to where we can even numbers because they cant shift their zone, you can force a stoppage or even win the ball.

 

[plugger66]

You can't really afford to wait and hold up these days unless you want it to come back quickly. You are better to chip short and wide than go long down the line -unless you are 3 points down with 2 minutes to play or something.

Well we agree to disagree. The same side might have 5 different ways they kick out from full back and I’m pretty sure occasionally it’s slow down the line especially if the other side has a run on. Last thing you want in that circumstance is quick plays.

 

[BrutThough]

If you’re kicking to a contest you know the oppo will have more numbers and better structure at then you’re not clearing the area.

It’s not 1998 anymore, defensive zones from kickouts means they will have more numbers and better structure around the ball if you take your sweet ass time to get it there.

The alternative is you push everyone defensively up to where that slow contest is and then we’re properly ****ed if we lose it.

If you are getting 60-70m away from goal and forcing a stoppage, then you have cleared the ball from the immediate danger zone, taken some time off the clock, given yourself a chance to set up with extra numbers behind the ball while still having a chance to either win the ball yourself or just hold it up to force more seconds off the clock. This set up happens all the time in close games and wins multiple games every season.

 

[plugger66]

I’m wrapping it up now but for clarity.

You don’t get a stoppage from a slow kickout. The opposition will have their defensive structure and can shift it to where the ball drops if they know it’s coming. They get the ball to ground, they will have more numbers (because we can’t push our defenders up in case of a turnover) and they’ll have players behind the ball and in the corridor to play it on.

The scenario you’re discussing relies on a contested mark from us or a spoil to the boundary. If it comes to ground (which it usually does) we’re cooked and it’s a turnover likely resulting in a shot at goal, not a stoppage.

Move it quickly to where we can even numbers because they cant shift their zone, you can force a stoppage or even win the ball.

Cannot agree with that at all. A quick long kick unless a guy has metres on someone will end up with us being outnumbered because the forwards won’t get there.

 

[plugger66]

No…

Look it’s a fundamental disagreement about how ball movement works. I’m pretty happy with my position so this is pointless. You wanna go long amd slow to a contest, great. I don’t.

And you want to ban it completely. I don’t. Somehow the very occasional kick in for a specific reason seems to be I want it don’t nearly all the time. All I said initially is I can see reasons when howardsshould kick in. There certainly shouldn’t be a blanket ban.

 

[phantom13]

Well I still say it depends on a couple of things. If it’s long kick outs then I think he should. If his opponent is taking the mark then maybe he should. If it’s find a short target then it’s a no. I would think until we get done talls back in the forward line we will be kicking long and killing it create a stoppage. Can’t see us playing to quickly with no tall forwards. What’s the point.

And you want to ban it completely. I don’t. Somehow the very occasional kick in for a specific reason seems to be I want it don’t nearly all the time. All I said initially is I can see reasons when howardsshould kick in. There certainly shouldn’t be a blanket ban.

Actually you just said if it’s long and his opponent is on the mark. You said nothing about specific reasons aside from that, you’ve now clarified and if he can do certain things then Doogs could take the kick in (which I’ve agreed with just not your long slow option which I still think is bad football).

I’d say one thing on your original post. How do you plan on us kicking goals with no talls if we’re moving the ball slow? We’ve seen that the best way to give small forwards any chance is quick ball movement so I have no idea how you reconcile those two options.

 

[plugger66]

Actually you just said if it’s long and his opponent is on the mark. You said nothing about specific reasons aside from that, you’ve now clarified and if he can do certain things then Doogs could take the kick in (which I’ve agreed with just not your long slow option which I still think is bad football).

I’d say one thing on your original post. How do you plan on us kicking goals with no talls if we’re moving the ball slow? We’ve seen that the best way to give small forwards any chance is quick ball movement so I have no idea how you reconcile those two options.

Actually you just said if it’s long and his opponent is on the mark. You said nothing about specific reasons aside from that, you’ve now clarified and if he can do certain things then Doogs could take the kick in (which I’ve agreed with just not your long slow option which I still think is bad football).

I’d say one thing on your original post. How do you plan on us kicking goals with no talls if we’re moving the ball slow? We’ve seen that the best way to give small forwards any chance is quick ball movement so I have no idea how you reconcile those two options.

I actually mentioned creating a stoppage as well so I haven’t really changed anything. Probably could have mentioned slow play as well but I thought a stoppage would suggest numbers this a slow play. Come on phantom. As if I want us to play slow all the time. It’s like saying I want Howard to kick out all the time. Of course if you get loose men you go for it. I’m just thinking Lyon will be more defensive early with our lack of tall strong forwards. I’ve see many small forwards kick many goals from the bomb in. And the bomb in can be fast or slow. Pin pointing smalls is a losers game.

 

[plugger66]

In other news that’s slightly relevant. Very slightly. Arryn sippos is a confirmed starter in the Super Bowl. Hopefully his father in law has the right info as he is on a flight on Monday.

 

[phantom13]

I actually mentioned creating a stoppage as well so I haven’t really changed anything. Probably could have mentioned slow play as well but I thought a stoppage would suggest numbers this a slow play. Come on phantom. As if I want us to play slow all the time. It’s like saying I want Howard to kick out all the time. Of course if you get loose men you go for it. I’m just thinking Lyon will be more defensive early with our lack of tall strong forwards. I’ve see many small forwards kick many goals from the bomb in. And the bomb in can be fast or slow. Pin pointing smalls is a losers game.

Last time I checked you can’t crumb a goal off an intercept mark so that might be a problem.

You want Lyon to play the 08-11 gameplan. Eeeesh.

 

[Joffaboy]

Don't want to get involved in the kick in debate but would like to talk about Billings.

An underachiever for a no.3, unfairly compared to Bont, looks vanilla even when getting 30 possessions and kicking 5 goals (did that once v Carlton and I hardly noticed him) and there is a perception that he is soft (not soft but not a hard man).

In saying that, if a fit Billings is in our bottom 6 we are going pretty good and with a better team around him, could well flourish. Is 28 knows his game, and that experience and has played over 150 games. Could surprise a few.

 

[stfan]

Just rang the Saints. Players are away at a training camp for today and next few days. So no training today at RSEA.

 

[plugger66]

Last time I checked you can’t crumb a goal off an intercept mark so that might be a problem.

You want Lyon to play the 08-11 gameplan. Eeeesh.

Why are you making things up. I reckon you have said that I have said certain things about 5 times yet never mentioned them. Just out of interest do you think we will play exactly the same whether king and hayes play or not? I don’t. You may not either. What changes will he make if you think he will make changes to the way we play.

 

[plugger66]

Just rang the Saints. Players are away at a training camp for today and next few days. So no trading today at RSEA.

Lucky. If we traded anymore players we wouldn’t get a fit 23 at the start of the season.

 

[phantom13]

Why are you making things up. I reckon you have said that I have said certain things about 5 times yet never mentioned them. Just out of interest do you think we will play exactly the same whether king and hayes play or not? I don’t. You may not either. What changes will he make if you think he will make changes to the way we play.

Well you said you’ve seen many a small forward kick many a goal from long bombs and I have as well but I’ve only ever seen that happen with a good big forward to contest which you’ve noted yourself we’re not gonna have.

You’re making shit up too mate, I never said anything about pinpointing small forwards, I said quick ball movement helps them to kick goals.

If we’re playing slow from a set play (a kick in) id rather we retain possesion, there is absolutely no reason ever to go long and slow to a contest from a kick in. In fact short of a skill error turn over it’s the worst option available. Everything you’re advocating for us doing (albeit in certain scenarios) is 90s footy and absolutely the last option we shoukd want.
Long and slow to a contest from a kick in is a last resort, not a strategy. Bombing to a forward line with no talls is a last resort, not a strategy.

 

[plugger66]

Don't want to get involved in the kick in debate but would like to talk about Billings.

An underachiever for a no.3, unfairly compared to Bont, looks vanilla even when getting 30 possessions and kicking 5 goals (did that once v Carlton and I hardly noticed him) and there is a perception that he is soft (not soft but not a hard man).

In saying that, if a fit Billings is in our bottom 6 we are going pretty good and with a better team around him, could well flourish. Is 28 knows his game, and that experience and has played over 150 games. Could surprise a few.

I think he kicked 4 against the dogs once. I remember him in that game. No idea about the 5 against Carlton.

 

[plugger66]

Well you said you’ve seen many a small forward kick many a goal from long bombs and I have as well but I’ve only ever seen that happen with a good big forward to contest which you’ve noted yourself we’re not gonna have.

You’re making s**t up too mate, I never said anything about pinpointing small forwards, I said quick ball movement helps them to kick goals.

If we’re playing slow from a set play (a kick in) id rather we retain possesion, there is absolutely no reason ever to go long and slow to a contest from a kick in. In fact short of a skill error turn over it’s the worst option available. Everything you’re advocating for us doing (albeit in certain scenarios) is 90s footy and absolutely the last option we shoukd want.
Long and slow to a contest from a kick in is a last resort, not a strategy. Bombing to a forward line with no talls is a last resort, not a strategy.

I just mentioned players kicking goals from bombing. I didn’t say to do it. It was more about how smalls can kick goals. If you don’t think in last years footy there wasn’t slow plays on occasions from full back you weren’t watching. Any coach worth their salt wants slow plays if another side has a run on. A slow play can be a contest and then a stoppage or it can be chipping to uncontested players. It is certainly a strategy. That I’m 100% sure of. I do agree it’s a last resort to bomb to a small forward line. You can play slow and not bomb. And I never said you mentioned pin pointing. That was me and only me and that’s how I see it.