List Mgmt. 2024 Father Son watch MKIII. Operation Ashcroft jnr. Featuring various academy boys.

[Jivlain]

 

[martinson]

Personally I believe if Ashcroft comes to us he'll go straight into the team . Our M/F isn't that hot. He looks at a similar level to Walsh.

 

[Sproj]

You don't get a number 1 pick midfielder and play them in seconds.

 

[briztoon]

Im sorry but i cannot let that one go. Gardiner was holding third tall and sometimes 2nd kpd at 18. We were shit and he was a kid in the backline holding kpd as best he could. He has done so much for this club and stuck by us through the bad times. Also, he can play big or small. Yes he has had shoulder issues but he is a super important part of our backline.

And... i remember being interstate watching the lions train and my son who was probably 11 or 12 was a bit shy to go and talk to the boys. Two players came across Cam Rayner and Darcy Gardiner spent plenty of time with him after a hard match sim. Salt of the earth, good citizen, he has years left in him. As i said can play kp or small, super flexible.

I know Gardiner is a good bloke and super competitive player. I know he’s played through plenty of injuries. And he’s been through some real tough times since being drafted.

I just don’t believe he fits in our best team, and would personally have Payne in ahead of him.

I believe Adams could play the same role, and better at it.

Personally I’d prefer Adams and Payne taking the oppositions best two key forwards, freeing up Andrews to play as floating, interceptor defender.

 

[martinson]

I know Gardiner is a good bloke and super competitive player. I know he’s played through plenty of injuries. And he’s been through some real tough times since being drafted.

I just don’t believe he fits in our best team, and would personally have Payne in ahead of him.

I believe Adams could play the same role, and better at it.

Personally I’d prefer Adams and Payne taking the oppositions best two key forwards, freeing up Andrews to play as floating, interceptor defender.

I agree that if we had the capacity to play Harris as a floating intercept defender that would be a huge plus for us and him.

The thing at the moment is that Adams seems capable of taking a gun forward and intercepting as well.

Gardiner drives me loopy with the couple of silly frees he gives up a game but I think his defensive work is above par and reasonably important for us.

I'm happy to embrace the concept of Payne in the back 6 . I guess we'll never know until he gets a run at it. Somehow.

 

[briztoon]

You don't get a number 1 pick midfielder and play them in seconds.

I think we can cool it a bit on Ashcroft being the number 1 kid in the draft.

Fair chance he might not be if the Oakleigh boys keep up with their development.

Let’s see how the NAB League shakes out, before the U18 Championships start.

Personally, from a bid matching perspective, I’m happy for Ashcroft to be rated the 3rd or 4th best kid in the draft.

 

[martinson]

I think we can cool it a bit on Ashcroft being the number 1 kid in the draft.

Fair chance he might not be if the Oakleigh boys keep up with their development.

Let’s see how the NAB League shakes out, before the U18 Championships start.

Personally, from a bid matching perspective, I’m happy for Ashcroft to be rated the 3rd or 4th best kid in the draft.

We'd be elated at the outcome one would think.

 

[briztoon]

I agree that if we had the capacity to play Harris as a floating intercept defender that would be a huge plus for us and him.

The thing at the moment is that Adams seems capable of taking a gun forward and intercepting as well.

Gardiner drives me loopy with the couple of silly frees he gives up a game but I think his defensive work is above par and reasonably important for us.

I'm happy to embrace the concept of Payne in the back 6 . I guess we'll never know until he gets a run at it. Somehow.

I don’t believe Adams can play on the King twins or McKay. And there’s more of these forwards coming in to the game.

Lucky we have two of our own.

 

[martinson]

I don’t believe Adams can play on the King twins or McKay. And there’s more of these forwards coming in to the game.

Lucky we have two of our own.

True.

The thing about Adams is that now that he's fully fit the attacking side of his game is really coming to the fore. He's prepared to take risks which I like, provided we only get the odd stuff up or two a game.

 

[Tom14]

People really overrate Payne. I don't see it - dizzy has some faults, but when he has had a clean injury run has been pretty good as the third banana. Plus, continuity matters a lot in a back 6.

 

[mattsmob]

People really overrate Payne. I don't see it - dizzy has some faults, but when he has had a clean injury run has been pretty good as the third banana. Plus, continuity matters a lot in a back 6.

To be fair I think you underrate Payne, he is a 22 year old KPD that has only played 15 games and has shown in flashes the ability to defend, intercept and be physically imposing enough to take on the monster key forwards at some point, add on to that he his a very good athlete at his size. As you say continuity is pretty important and he hasn’t had much of it, I dare say he’d be a starting player at almost every other club at the minute.

 

[Jubair]

Gardiner is one of our most important defenders, along with Adams. When either one or both have been out, our defense have struggled against KP forwards. I will go as far as to say he is our most important key defender who allows Andrews and Adams to play their games.

 

[spotthedog1]

We can't even fit Deven into the side let alone an 18 yr old kid.

And here is the problem. Dev isn't developing terribly quickly because he isn't really getting consistent games. Neither is Prior, but those two are getting loads more than most. PattyK listed a half dozen players as replacements, but none of them are getting first grade experience.

It's a balancing act, and I think in the 3peat we didn't really ever play the kids, with the result that we went a long way down.

I dont know that this year is the year to have a rotation policy either, but at this rate, I don't see us developing Tommy Berry, Payne, Prior, Dev enough for them to become A graders. B graders probably for a few, but it is a concern.

 

[jjami15]

And here is the problem. Dev isn't developing terribly quickly because he isn't really getting consistent games. Neither is Prior, but those two are getting loads more than most. PattyK listed a half dozen players as replacements, but none of them are getting first grade experience.

It's a balancing act, and I think in the 3peat we didn't really ever play the kids, with the result that we went a long way down.

I dont know that this year is the year to have a rotation policy either, but at this rate, I don't see us developing Tommy Berry, Payne, Prior, Dev enough for them to become A graders. B graders probably for a few, but it is a concern.

I am hoping that this is the year that Fagan moves away from his mantra of ‘best 22 your safe’ policy. I am not saying he has to wield the axe and have a reign of terror but if players are being inconsistent and not doing what the team requires then drop them for someone who has been pressing in the 2’s and reward them. We just wait for injuries etc and I am not sure if that is a healthy environment. A little of competition is warranted I believe especially with our list.

 

[lioninthesand]

Surely when we have melb games we send a few of the boys out to have a chat or invite him into the sheds after the games . Build some relationship or is that not allowed ?

He was at the Dogs preseason game at Marvel which I thought was interesting.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

Gardiner is one of our most important defenders, along with Adams. When either one or both have been out, our defense have struggled against KP forwards. I will go as far as to say he is our most important key defender who allows Andrews and Adams to play their games.

Couldn't put it better. The narrative among supporters denigrating Gardiner's performance over the years has become tedious.

 

[briztoon]

Couldn't put it better. The narrative among supporters denigrating Gardiner's performance over the years has become tedious.

I thought it was just me.

So is it ok to denigrate any players performances?

Personally I thought my criticism of Gardiner was pretty fair. Gets caught out of position, and then compounds it by giving away a stupid free, usually within kicking distance of goal. Unlike Harris, who gets caught out of position, fails to recover, but instead of giving away away a free, hangs his head and does the floppy arm thing.

 

[Dalions]

I thought it was just me.

So is it ok to denigrate any players performances?

Personally I thought my criticism of Gardiner was pretty fair. Gets caught out of position, and then compounds it by giving away a stupid free, usually within kicking distance of goal. Unlike Harris, who gets caught out of position, fails to recover, but instead of giving away away a free, hangs his head and does the floppy arm thing.

A free, a mark, what’s the difference anyway.

 

[briztoon]

A free, a mark, what’s the difference anyway.

Harris is usually giving up a mark.

Gardiner is usually pushing some in the back after being late to a ground ball contest, within the defensive 50.

 

[Dalions]

Harris is usually giving up a mark.

Gardiner is usually pushing some in the back after being late to a ground ball contest, within the defensive 50.

Quite often I wish Harris Andrews had some of Darcy Gardeners aggression.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

I thought it was just me.

So is it ok to denigrate any players performances?

Personally I thought my criticism of Gardiner was pretty fair. Gets caught out of position, and then compounds it by giving away a stupid free, usually within kicking distance of goal. Unlike Harris, who gets caught out of position, fails to recover, but instead of giving away away a free, hangs his head and does the floppy arm thing.

Not just you and it's interesting that you feel your viewpoints are unique to others. Most of the time it's confirmation bias. I'd also suggest that draft watchers like yourself have a bias towards playing younger players. The lure of potential and all that. I'll admit Darcy used to give away too many frees, but that has improved the last few years. Concedes 1 free kick per game, down from 1.5 in 2018. That's not too bad for a defender. Andrews and Adams average about the same. Payne isn't half the player currently that these three are.

 

[Quigley]

For me it is not that Payne is a better player than Gardiner at the moment. The issue for me is what back structure gives us the best chance to win a premiership and for me that is a structure where we have Andrews roaming around doing what he wants and the other backs locking down on the main targets. Andrews is not playing his best at the moment and I think it has a fair bit to do with the structure we run. Adams and Gardiner are both 192cm and give away 10 centimetres to the new generation of super tall forwards. Adams is best suited to the 195cm power forward and Gardiner to the medium forwards.

Payne is bigger and quicker and a more natural match up for those guys. He is also young and has elite upside at his position if we can get games into him and his skills are better than Adams and Gardiner. For me I would be playing him now so that when the finals roll around he has the confidence to do the job as well as experience of playing a good string of games with the other first string backs.

Adams is playing better than Gardiner at the moment so I would be playing Adams. Playing Adams on a secondary target usually brings out the best in him as well as far as intercepts go. Does Gardiner deserve to be in the side - yes. Does Payne also deserve a game - probably yes as well. For me its one step back to go two steps forward.

 

[Gadzorks]

Fagan was at the Hawks when they managed to stay at the top. I reckon he knows how to manage bringing in young players

 

[Quigley]

Fagan was at the Hawks when they managed to stay at the top. I reckon he knows how to manage bringing in young players

Which young players would that be?

They built on their initial core and then brought players from other clubs. Not many developed inhouse in that period from memory.

 

[martinson]

For me it is not that Payne is a better player than Gardiner at the moment. The issue for me is what back structure gives us the best chance to win a premiership and for me that is a structure where we have Andrews roaming around doing what he wants and the other backs locking down on the main targets. Andrews is not playing his best at the moment and I think it has a fair bit to do with the structure we run. Adams and Gardiner are both 192cm and give away 10 centimetres to the new generation of super tall forwards. Adams is best suited to the 195cm power forward and Gardiner to the medium forwards.

Payne is bigger and quicker and a more natural match up for those guys. He is also young and has elite upside at his position if we can get games into him and his skills are better than Adams and Gardiner. For me I would be playing him now so that when the finals roll around he has the confidence to do the job as well as experience of playing a good string of games with the other first string backs.

Adams is playing better than Gardiner at the moment so I would be playing Adams. Playing Adams on a secondary target usually brings out the best in him as well as far as intercepts go. Does Gardiner deserve to be in the side - yes. Does Payne also deserve a game - probably yes as well. For me its one step back to go two steps forward.

That's a reasonable thesis but I think you underestimate Adams' skills. He's getting better every game now that he has full fitness. He seems to play Hawkins allright and he's 198 but I'd agree anyone taller is probably an issue.

Harris just doesn't seem to play the really tall guys all that well over the last couple of years . Seems late to the contest or trying to get a leap into it but not quite getting there in time.

It's a good problem to have the 3 backmen we have of the quality they are. I'd love to play Payne for a few games to see what he's got but it's a tough decision isn't it.

 

[Timetoroarlike44]

For me it is not that Payne is a better player than Gardiner at the moment. The issue for me is what back structure gives us the best chance to win a premiership and for me that is a structure where we have Andrews roaming around doing what he wants and the other backs locking down on the main targets. Andrews is not playing his best at the moment and I think it has a fair bit to do with the structure we run. Adams and Gardiner are both 192cm and give away 10 centimetres to the new generation of super tall forwards. Adams is best suited to the 195cm power forward and Gardiner to the medium forwards.

Payne is bigger and quicker and a more natural match up for those guys. He is also young and has elite upside at his position if we can get games into him and his skills are better than Adams and Gardiner. For me I would be playing him now so that when the finals roll around he has the confidence to do the job as well as experience of playing a good string of games with the other first string backs.

Adams is playing better than Gardiner at the moment so I would be playing Adams. Playing Adams on a secondary target usually brings out the best in him as well as far as intercepts go. Does Gardiner deserve to be in the side - yes. Does Payne also deserve a game - probably yes as well. For me its one step back to go two steps forward.

I see upside with Payne. Had a pretty good final v Cats in 2020.

But he has had some pretty poor games too, and his disposal can be pretty shaky. This will likely improve over the next year or two, and in particular with some senior footy. So it would be great to get some games into him.

But i think right now Darcy is a better option. For one his disposal is quite reliable. Not damaging but I don't worry when he has the ball. One of Payne's issues is his lack of confidence kicking at time and he won't quickly take that first option.

Darcy also seems to be warming into the season. He had a major injury last year and it has taken a while to get his confidence back. At his best he is a very reliable defender, disciplined and determined, who can take talls or smalls.

Having said all that this weekend will be interesting. My memory is Darcy has done quite well v Jeremy Cameron over the years. I am hoping he gets that job and does it well. Cameron is too fast I think for Harris, and Adams is a lock for Hawkins.

So a big weekend for Darcy, if he does a good job on Cameron, and Adams can do anything near the blanket job on Hawkins he has managed, it goes a long way to beating the cats.