List Mgmt. 2024 List Management discussion

Prediction- Who is delisted this year(not retirements).

  • Berry

  • McCluggage

  • Lyons

  • McCarthy

  • Answerth

  • Lane

  • Prior

  • Madden

  • Lester

  • Joyce

  • Zorko

  • Michael

  • Brain

  • Reville

Results are only viewable after voting.

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HereIGoAgain said:
Size is missing in the conversation about the Ashcroft boys plugging the holes in our midfield.

At Freo Lachie had Fyfe to cop a fair bit of the physicality. Here he has been battered pillar to post and there has been no serious attempt to alleviate that even with the inclusion of Dunkley.

I'd rather not continue to see that happening to our undersized midfield.
Click to expand...
It doesn’t look to be getting any better from our top academy kids. All smaller sized mids (albeit, I haven’t seen any 2024 updated measurements).
 
HereIGoAgain said:
Size is missing in the conversation about the Ashcroft boys plugging the holes in our midfield.

At Freo Lachie had Fyfe to cop a fair bit of the physicality. Here he has been battered pillar to post and there has been no serious attempt to alleviate that even with the inclusion of Dunkley.

I'd rather not continue to see that happening to our undersized midfield.
Click to expand...

Problem is big sized mids who can play like Fyfe, Cripps, Bont are basically the 1% of the AFL. Berry and Rayner are likely the only guys on our list capable of filling that void, albeit nowhere near the effectiveness of the 1%ers.
 
Elixuh said:
Problem is big sized mids who can play like Fyfe, Cripps, Bont are basically the 1% of the AFL. Berry and Rayner are likely the only guys on our list capable of filling that void, albeit nowhere near the effectiveness of the 1%ers.
Click to expand...

In my opinion, this is why chasing Oliver would be worth the risk.
 

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briztoon said:
There’s a few alarm bells going off for me in regards to our list and team selection.

It’s looking pretty obvious that we have little to no depth beyond our best 23/24 players that the coaching/selection committee trust.

Or they are very, very reluctant to play too many youngsters in the team.

With just Ashcroft missing from our first choice midfield, we chose to rush back an obviously underdone Neale for the first game. And play Lyons, even though we appeared to move on from him last season, as he is no longer capable of playing up to today’s style of football.

With just McKenna missing from our first choice defenders, we preferred to play Berry as our bench halfback.

Then we rushed an obviously underdone McKenna back in to the team, after we lost Coleman. And still played Berry as our bench halfback, even though he’s clearly not suited for the position.


We have next to no depth (that the coaches appear to trust) amongst our tall defenders, tall forwards, wings, midfield and halfbacks.


Another concern for me is that Neale and Cameron, two players we rely on so heavily, are starting on their decline.

Neale has been a virtual one man band at the contest, and he’s (in my opinion) starting to show that the wear and tear is starting to show.

Same with Cameron. He certainly appears to have lost a yard of pace.


Then we have players who should be entering their prime years, who appear to have gone backwards in the last couple of years.

Robertson looks lost an ineffective playing in the midfield. He was the number one ball winner in the U18 championships and won the Larke medal (MVP). Against VIC Metro, he out performed Matt Rowell, and against VIC Country bashed up Flanders and Serong, to the point that Serong was moved to the forward pocket for the second half of that game, because he couldn’t get near the ball in the first half.

Jaxon Prior looked like he was developing nicely on a wing in his early years. Now he doesn’t even get a look in.
Click to expand...

A good summary BT.

Re Dev, IMO he just doesn't have the size to play that Matt Rowell ball winner role. He gets rag dolled too easily. I think its partly why he is in-between positions/roles.
 
Elixuh said:
A good summary BT.

Re Dev, IMO he just doesn't have the size to play that Matt Rowell ball winner role. He gets rag dolled too easily. I think its partly why he is in-between positions/roles.
Click to expand...
He’s taller than Rowell, and looks noticeably slimmer than two seasons ago.


On another note, I’m not used to mods agreeing with my “doom & gloom” posts, or seeing mods & ex mods posting similar.

Some of Hollow Knight posts in yesterday’s match day thread were an eye opener.
 
briztoon said:
It doesn’t look to be getting any better from our top academy kids. All smaller sized mids (albeit, I haven’t seen any 2024 updated measurements).
Click to expand...
There was a post on the draft board that said Sam Marshall has put on some size, didn't mention height.
 
briztoon said:
There’s a few alarm bells going off for me in regards to our list and team selection.

It’s looking pretty obvious that we have little to no depth beyond our best 23/24 players that the coaching/selection committee trust.

Or they are very, very reluctant to play too many youngsters in the team.

With just Ashcroft missing from our first choice midfield, we chose to rush back an obviously underdone Neale for the first game. And play Lyons, even though we appeared to move on from him last season, as he is no longer capable of playing up to today’s style of football.

With just McKenna missing from our first choice defenders, we preferred to play Berry as our bench halfback.

Then we rushed an obviously underdone McKenna back in to the team, after we lost Coleman. And still played Berry as our bench halfback, even though he’s clearly not suited for the position.


We have next to no depth (that the coaches appear to trust) amongst our tall defenders, tall forwards, wings, midfield and halfbacks.


Another concern for me is that Neale and Cameron, two players we rely on so heavily, are starting on their decline.

Neale has been a virtual one man band at the contest, and he’s (in my opinion) starting to show that the wear and tear is starting to show.

Same with Cameron. He certainly appears to have lost a yard of pace.


Then we have players who should be entering their prime years, who appear to have gone backwards in the last couple of years.

Robertson looks lost an ineffective playing in the midfield. He was the number one ball winner in the U18 championships and won the Larke medal (MVP). Against VIC Metro, he out performed Matt Rowell, and against VIC Country bashed up Flanders and Serong, to the point that Serong was moved to the forward pocket for the second half of that game, because he couldn’t get near the ball in the first half.

Jaxon Prior looked like he was developing nicely on a wing in his early years. Now he doesn’t even get a look in.
Click to expand...
And this was my worry heading into this year. Given we've been so lucky on the injury front the last few years, the coaches haven't had to expose anyone outside the top 23-25 players. Injuries now mounting, as well as you say some of these guys passing their peak, it means the slack has to be picked up by players who haven't been exposed previously or guys who we hoped would kick on, simply not doing so.
 
briztoon said:
He’s taller than Rowell, and looks noticeably slimmer than two seasons ago.


On another note, I’m not used to mods agreeing with my “doom & gloom” posts, or seeing mods & ex mods posting similar.

Some of Hollow Knight posts in yesterday’s match day thread were an eye opener.
Click to expand...

You were dooming and glooming in 2021 though. It is fair enough for people to wait and see and change perspective three years on. Or alternatively, look at making the grand final last year and not panic yet.

For me, I think my opinion shifted on the team and Fagan after the horrendous end to the regular season in 2022. We started the season really well, then managed to lose a bunch of winnable games down the stretch, let Richmond come back from a six goal deficit at the MCG, and got blown out by Melbourne twice.

We had a great couple of finals wins to redeem the season, then last year we started slow, managed to somehow lose from an unloseable position against the Dees at the MCG again. We pulled it back together enough to finish 2nd (aided by Port and the Dees losing games they shouldn't have), won two home finals and barely fell short of a flag.

Pretty apparent that our best is good enough to win a flag, but we definitely have a soft, soft underbelly. Its the repeat behaviour that worries me though. 3 years of rolling over when a situation gets tough for us and no sign of any correction.
 
I’m trying not to be too harsh on our prospects given I thought we needed a mini rebuild last year and we ended up exceeding expectations.

At some point though we need to find more reliable options through the midfield. We don’t look too bad with Neale, Dunkley, McCluggage and Ashcroft all playing and in reasonable form but we don’t have any other reliable options especially when the opposition bring a high level of intensity. We also just have to live without a decent ruck and go with the less terrible option.

Forward pressure needs addressing too. Quick ball movement looks unlikely especially with Kiddy out so we need to go back to winning contests inside 50. Probably miss McStays follow up work at ground level which we may have been trying to emulate with Dizzy playing forward.

Too late to rectify through the draft but we’ve seen teams like Collingwood, Sydney and Geelong top up with delisted players and VFL mature agers to find a role within the team

Also has to be huge question marks on our drafting and/or development with the bulk of our draftees either not being up to or not developing a well rounded game
 
Nathan Barley said:
I’m trying not to be too harsh on our prospects given I thought we needed a mini rebuild last year and we ended up exceeding expectations.

At some point though we need to find more reliable options through the midfield. We don’t look too bad with Neale, Dunkley, McCluggage and Ashcroft all playing and in reasonable form but we don’t have any other reliable options especially when the opposition bring a high level of intensity. We also just have to live without a decent ruck and go with the less terrible option.

Forward pressure needs addressing too. Quick ball movement looks unlikely especially with Kiddy out so we need to go back to winning contests inside 50. Probably miss McStays follow up work at ground level which we may have been trying to emulate with Dizzy playing forward.

Too late to rectify through the draft but we’ve seen teams like Collingwood, Sydney and Geelong top up with delisted players and VFL mature agers to find a role within the team

Also has to be huge question marks on our drafting and/or development with the bulk of our draftees either not being up to or not developing a well rounded game
Click to expand...
Hopefully Levi Ashcroft and Sam Marshall give us greater quality depth through the midfield rotations, I think Levi can make an immediate impact in 2025 like his big brother, not sure on Sam.
 

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Nathan Barley said:
Also trying to remind myself how good Will Ashcroft is. May take him some time to find form again but could transform our midfield
Click to expand...

Will at least was able to play a bulk of the season, so understands what is required at AFL level and the speed of the game.
 
Nathan Barley said:
Also trying to remind myself how good Will Ashcroft is. May take him some time to find form again but could transform our midfield
Click to expand...



(By the time he's back truly accustomed to footy we'll be in the last third of the season. Need the current available players to pull their fingers out so we aren't out of it by then).
 
Been some mention of our recent draft efforts.

Our recent drafts(too early for 2023) and players taken near by/just after who may have been better options, it really is a lottery particularly the further down the order you go.

2022- Ashcroft, Fletcher... were never doing anything else.
2021- Darcy Wilmot(16), Kai Lohmann(20)... others Van Rooyen(19). We were always taking Wilmot, club rated him very high.
2020- Blake Coleman(24), Harry Sharp(43), Henry Smith(48).... Beau McCreery(44).
2019- Dev Robertson(22), Brock Smith(33).... Trent Rivers(32), Chad Warner(39 :eek: ). Lot of other clubs passed on Rivers/Warner as well.
2018- Ely Smith(21), Tom Berry(36), Tom Joyce(40), Connor McFadyen(42)... Xavier Ó'Halloran(22), Bobby Hill(24), James Rowbottom(25), Nick Hind(54). Ely was a big mistake.
2017- Cam Rayner(1), Zac Bailey(15), Brandon Starcevich(18)... Andrew Brayshaw(2), Ed Richards(16), Oscar Allen(21).
_________________________________
Very good overall IMO, Brayshaw would of certainly helped our run and Allen over Starcevich would have been better for our list mix.
 
Last edited:
M Malice said:
Been some mention of our recent draft efforts.

Our recent drafts(too early for 2023) and players taken near by/just after who may have been better options, it really is a lottery particularly the further down the order you go.

2022- Ashcroft, Fletcher... were never doing anything else.
2021- Darcy Wilmot(16), Kai Lohmann(20)... others Van Rooyen(19). We were always taking Wilmot, club rated him very high.
2020- Blake Coleman(24), Harry Sharp(43), Henry Smith(48).... Beau McCreery(44).
2019- Dev Robertson(22), Brock Smith(33).... Trent Rivers(32), Chad Warner(39 :eek: ). Lot of other clubs passed on Rivers/Warner as well.
2018- Tom Berry(36), Tom Joyce(40), Connor McFadyen(42)... Nick Hind(54).
2017- Cam Rayner(1), Zac Bailey(15), Brandon Starcevich(18)... Andrew Brayshaw(2), Ed Richards(16), Oscar Allen(21).
_________________________________
Very good overall IMO, Brayshaw would of certainly helped our run and Allen over Starcevich would have been better for our list mix.
Click to expand...

2018-2020 left a pretty big hole on our list
 
Nathan Barley said:
2018-2020 left a pretty big hole on our list
Click to expand...
Yep but there really weren't any other better options around those selections.

Edit- I just re looked at those drafts.. I missed that we took Ely Smith in 2018 at pick 21, Xavier O'Halloran went at 22, Bobby Hill at 24 and James Rowbottom at 25.
 
M Malice said:
Been some mention of our recent draft efforts.

Our recent drafts(too early for 2023) and players taken near by/just after who may have been better options, it really is a lottery particularly the further down the order you go.

2022- Ashcroft, Fletcher... were never doing anything else.
2021- Darcy Wilmot(16), Kai Lohmann(20)... others Van Rooyen(19). We were always taking Wilmot, club rated him very high.
2020- Blake Coleman(24), Harry Sharp(43), Henry Smith(48).... Beau McCreery(44).
2019- Dev Robertson(22), Brock Smith(33).... Trent Rivers(32), Chad Warner(39 :eek: ). Lot of other clubs passed on Rivers/Warner as well.
2018- Ely Smith(21), Tom Berry(36), Tom Joyce(40), Connor McFadyen(42)... Xavier Ó'Halloran(22), Bobby Hill(24), James Rowbottom(25), Nick Hind(54). Ely was a big mistake.
2017- Cam Rayner(1), Zac Bailey(15), Brandon Starcevich(18)... Andrew Brayshaw(2), Ed Richards(16), Oscar Allen(21).
_________________________________
Very good overall IMO, Brayshaw would have certainly helped our run and Allen over Starcevich would have been better for our list mix.
Click to expand...
This is part of a post from someone who used to work in the industry.

Drafting is never just the head recruiter. Most often their job is talent identification and identifying which kids fit what the coach and list manager are looking for.

IMG_3025.jpeg
 
M Malice said:
Been some mention of our recent draft efforts.

Our recent drafts(too early for 2023) and players taken near by/just after who may have been better options, it really is a lottery particularly the further down the order you go.

2022- Ashcroft, Fletcher... were never doing anything else.
2021- Darcy Wilmot(16), Kai Lohmann(20)... others Van Rooyen(19). We were always taking Wilmot, club rated him very high.
2020- Blake Coleman(24), Harry Sharp(43), Henry Smith(48).... Beau McCreery(44).
2019- Dev Robertson(22), Brock Smith(33).... Trent Rivers(32), Chad Warner(39 :eek: ). Lot of other clubs passed on Rivers/Warner as well.
2018- Ely Smith(21), Tom Berry(36), Tom Joyce(40), Connor McFadyen(42)... Xavier Ó'Halloran(22), Bobby Hill(24), James Rowbottom(25), Nick Hind(54). Ely was a big mistake.
2017- Cam Rayner(1), Zac Bailey(15), Brandon Starcevich(18)... Andrew Brayshaw(2), Ed Richards(16), Oscar Allen(21).
_________________________________
Very good overall IMO, Brayshaw would of certainly helped our run and Allen over Starcevich would have been better for our list mix.
Click to expand...

Doing comparisons like this will only drive you mad. All you can do is assess the talent we have drafted and whether it worked out.

To basically not hit 1 player who is clear best 22, between 2018 and 2020 is tough.
 
Yeah we didn't cover ourselves with glory '18 -'20 but it's all very well now to talk what ifs.

Making the right choices at the time is the hard part. And you know you're just rolling the dice hoping to get lucky.
 
Elixuh said:
Doing comparisons like this will only drive you mad. All you can do is assess the talent we have drafted and whether it worked out.

To basically not hit 1 player who is clear best 22, between 2018 and 2020 is tough.
Click to expand...
I'm already a tad "mad" :tongueoutv1:... as I said when you look at it overall IMO our recruiters etc did a very good job.

Just my perception but the strike rate would be very low for all clubs IMO, however I do think talent identification is getting better particularly high in the draft, picks down in the late 20s and below would be pretty much a lottery.

Perception again but maybe the Cats and Swans are the best at jagging talent late in drafts.
 
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