List Mgmt. 2024 List Management discussion

[StevoJenkins]

Berry a player who has genuinely stagnated . Should have been dropped by fagan long ago to set a standard . He is too soft on players . Why we going so tall against Collingwood ?

I don't think Berry stays in the team because Fagan likes him, we just genuinely won't have good wingers outside of him. Sharp isn't there yet, Tunstil is destined to be an inside mid, Fletcher is the same. Ah Chee prefers to play as a forward, Dev really needs to play inside as it's his best position, and the only other winger is Bags, but he's been chucked in the middle. Everyone else is not a natural winger and is playing the wing as a fill-in/is the only way they get a game (Answorth, Prior, etc.).

As for going in too tall, I think Fort/Oscar is the right call for the ruck/forward. Oscar is a better main ruck vs another ruck, but Fort is more mobile and can act as another midfielder. Payne then replaces Gardiner, and the others are just the personnel we have on hand. Ravaged by injuries this year as compared to other years.

 

[briztoon]

I don't think Berry stays in the team because Fagan likes him, we just genuinely won't have good wingers outside of him.

Pretty much spot on.

Fletcher and Prior would be the only other two players I believe are genuinely capable as wingers.

And Ah Chee as a flanker/wing.

 

[StevoJenkins]

Pretty much spot on.

Fletcher and Prior would be the only other two players I believe are genuinely capable as wingers.

And Ah Chee as a flanker/wing.

I'd like to see Sharp and Prior get a go this season over Berry. Sharp has shown glimpses but doesn't have the consistency, and Prior can play multiple positions. I'd prefer Ah Chee up forward, seems to be the only small outside of McCarthy who tries his heart out (Cameron does try, but seems to play more so for free kicks these days).

Won't happen, but a man can dream.

 

[KissKiss]

I don't think Berry stays in the team because Fagan likes him, we just genuinely won't have good wingers outside of him. Sharp isn't there yet, Tunstil is destined to be an inside mid, Fletcher is the same. Ah Chee prefers to play as a forward, Dev really needs to play inside as it's his best position, and the only other winger is Bags, but he's been chucked in the middle. Everyone else is not a natural winger and is playing the wing as a fill-in/is the only way they get a game (Answorth, Prior, etc.).

As for going in too tall, I think Fort/Oscar is the right call for the ruck/forward. Oscar is a better main ruck vs another ruck, but Fort is more mobile and can act as another midfielder. Payne then replaces Gardiner, and the others are just the personnel we have on hand. Ravaged by injuries this year as compared to other years.

It just seems almost funny that we have no natural wingers, except the few who look like they can play the role (Fletcher and McCluggage) we keep talking about them becoming inside mids. And then the natural inside mids we keep trying to force into wingers (Berry, Dev, Tunstill, even Lyons lined up on the wing in round 1 I think).

 

[StevoJenkins]

It just seems almost funny that we have no natural wingers, except the few who look like they can play the role (Fletcher and McCluggage) we keep talking about them becoming inside mids. And then the natural inside mids we keep trying to force into wingers (Berry, Dev, Tunstill, even Lyons lined up on the wing in round 1 I think).

Something that I've seen mentioned over the years during the Fagan era is that the coaches don't necessarily value the wing.

When we had only one way of getting the ball in the 50, which often involved Robbo punting the ball as far and inaccurately as possible, the team would always pass the ball to Robbo or Bags whenever they could. Ever since our followers got good, and Bags got put into the inside more regularly, it almost seems like the team doesn't trust whoever is on the wing, or they've been coached not to pass it to a winger.

If it's trust, I can understand that - Berry's disposal has only gotten worse over time and no one else has been played that much on the other wing. But if it's coaching, I can't understand that, especially after Collywobble's wings cleaned us up in the granny. We tend to use our wingers as an extra defender or forward, but never an actual winger.

It also doesn't help that most kids who want to play footy dream of playing as an inside mid or a forward, not the wing. Drafting a winger always seems to be like drafting a duck with a high opinion of itself. They always eventually want to play in the middle as opposed to the wing. This isn't helped by the AFL when they pick the All-Australian team and don't pick actual wingers for the position.

Whatever the plan is with the wings moving forward into 2025, it won't be fixed by next season. The priority in the draft/trade period should be Ashcroft, the other guy whose name I keep forgetting in the academy, and an actual key forward who can fill the gapping McStay sized whole in the forward line. Getting an understudy to Andrews now wouldn't hurt either.

Not that it's related to this thread, but I would like to see a coaching shake up as well this offseason. Not sure who would want to come up to Brisbane from somewhere else, but the coaching team needs new blood. Every season the game changes, but we don't seem to change the gameplan. Part of that is player/personnel related (you can only play with the players you have), and the other part of it is coaching.

 

[mpal6]

Whatever the plan is with the wings moving forward into 2025, it won't be fixed by next season. The priority in the draft/trade period should be Ashcroft, the other guy whose name I keep forgetting in the academy, and an actual key forward who can fill the gapping McStay sized whole in the forward line. Getting an understudy to Andrews now wouldn't hurt either.

All sorted from Academy
the other guy whose name I keep forgetting - Sam Marshall
an actual key forward who can fill the gapping McStay sized whole - Charlie Hewitt, Ty Gallop
Getting an understudy to Andrews - Billy Richardson, Brad McDonald (undrafted KPPs from last year playing VFL)

 

[briztoon]

All sorted from Academy
the other guy whose name I keep forgetting - Sam Marshall
an actual key forward who can fill the gapping McStay sized whole - Charlie Hewitt, Ty Gallop
Getting an understudy to Andrews - Billy Richardson, Brad McDonald (undrafted KPPs from last year playing VFL)

The view I have heard from multiple draft watchers, is that Marshall doesn’t have the outside skills to play as a genuine wing.

He could play the defensive wing role we have seen Berry and MRobbo play.

 

[KissKiss]

Something that I've seen mentioned over the years during the Fagan era is that the coaches don't necessarily value the wing.

When we had only one way of getting the ball in the 50, which often involved Robbo punting the ball as far and inaccurately as possible, the team would always pass the ball to Robbo or Bags whenever they could. Ever since our followers got good, and Bags got put into the inside more regularly, it almost seems like the team doesn't trust whoever is on the wing, or they've been coached not to pass it to a winger.

I do believe this a lot. Sitting in the stands on the 50 and so often you would see a winger make a solid lead into space and the man with the ball would look at them and not make the pass. They would just wait and then go long over them. We just refused to use the wings so often

 

[StevoJenkins]

All sorted from Academy
the other guy whose name I keep forgetting - Sam Marshall
an actual key forward who can fill the gapping McStay sized whole - Charlie Hewitt, Ty Gallop
Getting an understudy to Andrews - Billy Richardson, Brad McDonald (undrafted KPPs from last year playing VFL)

Briztoon has covered what I would've said but better RE: Marshall (will forget his name again).

When I referred to a forward being a need, I was talking about potentially trading in another forward or recruiting a player from the state leagues. Doesn't need to be a marquee full forward, just needs to be able to take a mark or crash the ball to the smalls. Not that the plan shouldn't be to draft for that need, but it will be a couple of seasons before either of those players are ready for AFL footy. The need is current whilst we are somewhat still in the window.

Not sure about the defenders. Someone who is more of a draft/VFL watcher would be more qualified to comment. If it isn't covered in an AFL/SEN/Fox Footy article, I wouldn't be fully across it in that regard.

I do believe this a lot. Sitting in the stands on the 50 and so often you would see a winger make a solid lead into space and the man with the ball would look at them and not make the pass. They would just wait and then go long over them. We just refused to use the wings so often

The long plays are why I keep defaulting to the "we need a marking forward" line. If you're going long, you need someone who can trust to take that mark every time. Daniher gets dragged into every contest (even when sometimes he doesn't have to), Omac usually is behind the play recovering from a ruck contest and Hippy is the man who stays anchored in the 50 but is not that kind of player.

There's nothing wrong with going long, you just need someone who can reliably take that mark, which we don't have right now.

Hopefully Fort isn't being brought into the team tonight to just switch with Oscar on rotation and he actually plays forward. Haven't seen him rest forward in a while, but when he marks and has a shot, he's a pretty reliable shot.

 

[mpal6]

I rate Prior more than I do Jerry nowadays and Fagan won’t give Prior a look in

Prior is the 2024 version of "when will Dev Robertson get a go?"

 

[Nunez]

Prior is the 2024 version of "when will Dev Robertson get a go?"

Brain was more impressive than Prior.

 

[scoman]

I wonder if we could/ should be talking to Willem Drew

28

Willem Drew

Age

26

Ht

188cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.9

4star

K

7.2

3star

HB

8.7

5star

M

2.2

2star

T

5.6

5star

CL

2.3

4star

No current season stats available

D

18.0

5star

K

9.2

4star

HB

8.8

5star

M

3.0

3star

T

4.2

5star

CL

2.8

5star

. Seems like a very dependable player who would give Dunkley some assistance with the heavy lifting (tagging/ tackling/ blocking) in our midfield. Could balance things out with our future midfield (Ashcroft x 2) as well. I was really hoping Dev could be that guy, but he hasn't made a great start to the year, and our coaching staff just haven't set him up to play inside.

 

[briztoon]

I wonder if we could/ should be talking to Willem Drew. Seems like a very dependable player who would give Dunkley some assistance with the heavy lifting (tagging/ tackling/ blocking) in our midfield. Could balance things out with our future midfield (Ashcroft x 2) as well. I was really hoping Dev could be that guy, but he hasn't made a great start to the year, and our coaching staff just haven't set him up to play inside.

Pretty sure he went to school with Berry and McCluggage. Mates and all that.

 

[briztoon]

 

[Squizz89]

Bit of a worry the long term deals given to Hipwood and Payne all of a sudden.

I hope Payne’s is just a temporary (albeit long) form slump. Hipwood I think has been around long enough to make a conclusion that what we get with him is about all we’ll get for his career unfortunately.

 

[Tom14]

Bit of a worry the long term deals given to Hipwood and Payne all of a sudden.

I hope Payne’s is just a temporary (albeit long) form slump. Hipwood I think has been around long enough to make a conclusion that what we get with him is about all we’ll get for his career unfortunately.

If Joe and Charlie were playing well it would be fine. Eric was bad last night but a solid contributor the first 2 games I thought.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Looking forward to 2025; what holes do we have in our 23 to win a premiership

Not interested in posting about tanking or rebuilds

I think our back 7 is pretty settled and solid as well

Andrews and Payne on the talls. Gardiner depth

Doedee 3rd tall, intercept and rebound. Lester depth

Starcevich lockdown small. Answerth depth

Kiddy, McKenna and Wilmot rebound. Prior and Brain depth

Forward line pretty settled with the only issue being a second ruck (ditching the sub and having 5 on the bench would help)

Daniher, Hipwood, Charlie, Linc, Rayner and Bailey. Lohmann, Ryan and Morris depth

First string midfield looks strong; Neale, Dunkley, Ashcroft, Clug and Berry/Fletcher

Ruck is an issue with Oscar all we have

This gives us

B: Doedee Payne Starcevich
HB: Coleman Andrews McKenna
C: Berry Neale McCluggage
HF: Rayner Hipwood Bailey
F: Cameron Daniher McCarthy
Foll: McInerney Dunkley Ashcroft
Bench: Wilmot, Fletcher

The last 2 to 3 spots IMO have to be capable of playing midfield. One is likely to be Levi. Allowing for Rayner and Bailey to stay forward and only occasionally go into the middle

I think we need to find a B grade midfielder with capacity to play forward.

Solving the ruck issue though I don't have answers for. If we had 5 on the bench you'd consider playing Fort or HSmith

 

[Scubaveg]

The list is interesting from here.
Levi and Will both come in next year. That's two from the pies game gone.

Then add McKenna and kiddy and maybe Doedee.

That 5 from pies game lur.

Then guys like Prior, Sharp, Tunstill, Madden, Lane, Smith and Carter Michael have been around a while now. Clearly the coaching staff don't trust them.

Fagan made a comment in his press conference last night when questioned on the selections "they're the players we have".

Can see a clean out come end of this year.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[brisbanelions]

With Doedee during another knee how can this get any worse. Even with 2 knee reconstructions, was that not enough of a warning flag , yet brisbane lions rather than waiting 12 months WHICH IS THE ACCEPTED NORM from a reco , bring him back 9 and half months and GUESS WHAT DOES ANOTHER KNEE. Bad , bad decision making at the lions . With Deodee and kiddy long term injuries, we must attack attack the mid season draft like our life depends on it. Going to be super critical which will be the biggest Understatement of the year.

 

[Nunez]

With Doedee during another knee how can this get any worse. Even with 2 knee reconstructions, was that not enough of a warning flag , yet brisbane lions rather than waiting 12 months WHICH IS THE ACCEPTED NORM from a reco , bring him back 9 and half months and GUESS WHAT DOES ANOTHER KNEE. Bad , bad decision making at the lions . With Deodee and kiddy long term injuries, we must attack attack the mid season draft like our life depends on it. Going to be super critical which will be the biggest Understatement of the year.

Not to be a dick, but do you know what the difference in recovery and chance of reinjuring is if you come back in 10 months v 12 months?

 

[brisbanelions]

Not to be a dick, but do you know what the difference in recovery and chance of reinjuring is if you come back in 10 months v 12 months?

There are no guarantees I can give you regards 10 vs 12. however Cam waited 12 months, a lot of players at Fitzroy waited 12 months after a reco ,my brother did a knee while training with the under 19’s at Fitzroy. Doctor told my brother he had to wait 12 months back then.He then had a further 2 reco’s after that. The point I am making with Doedee is that we picked him knowing he already had two knee recos,

In my opinion, knowing what the club knew, the more prudent decision would have been to play it safe and exercise extreme caution as the flags were there to begin with.(I was surprised the club even went with Doedee given his two reco’s , but that is just my opinion). With two reco’s the club should have gone down a more cautious approach just like Cam but even more so because of Doedee’s history. I am not doubting Doedee talent at all. I feel for Doedee because he is no doubt talented, only hope he recovers and makes a strong contribution to the Lions.

So to your question ,my personal opinion the longer the better with the disclaimer, that when it comes to knee injuries,anything can happen at anytime , no matter how long or how hard you train in your rehab.

 

[Nathan Barley]

There are no guarantees I can give you , however Cam waited 12 months, a lot of players at Fitzroy waited 12 months after a reco ,my brother did a knee while training with the under 19’s at Fitzroy. Doctor told my brother he had to wait 12 months back then.He then had a further 2 reco’s after that. The point I am making with Doedee is that we picked him knowing he already had two knee recos,

In my opinion, knowing what the club knew, the more prudent decision would have been to play it safe and exercise extreme caution as the flags were there to begin with.(I was surprised the club even went with Doedee given his two reco’s , but that is just my opinion). With two reco’s the club should have gone down a more cautious approach just like Cam but even more so because of Doedee’s history. I am not doubting Doedee talent at all. I feel for Doedee because he is no doubt talented, only hope he recovers and has strong contribution to the Lions.

Cam might’ve played in January after 10 months if there were games to play. Haha

 

[briztoon]

Looking forward to 2025; what holes do we have in our 23 to win a premiership

Not interested in posting about tanking or rebuilds

I think our back 7 is pretty settled and solid as well

Andrews and Payne on the talls. Gardiner depth

Doedee 3rd tall, intercept and rebound. Lester depth

Starcevich lockdown small. Answerth depth

Kiddy, McKenna and Wilmot rebound. Prior and Brain depth

I believe we need to be looking for successors to Andrews and McKenna. Players who will be ready to go in two or three seasons.

Forward line pretty settled with the only issue being a second ruck (ditching the sub and having 5 on the bench would help)

Daniher, Hipwood, Charlie, Linc, Rayner and Bailey. Lohmann, Ryan and Morris depth

Just my opinion, but I believe we need a successor to Cameron and Daniher in the squad asap.

I believe injuries are really going to impact Cameron, and probably shorten his career.

First string midfield looks strong; Neale, Dunkley, Ashcroft, Clug and Berry/Fletcher

Ruck is an issue with Oscar all we have

And I believe we’re missing 4 players from our midfield.

A quality winger, who’s good kick with endurance and pace, to replace Berry. That could be McCluggage if we change our midfield mix and game plan.

A proper big bodied mid on the bench. A player similar to Luke Davies-Uniack or Matthew Kennedy at Carlton.

A quality, ball hunting, athletic running mid similar to Chad Warner from Sydney.

And a ruck similar to Steph Martin, but a little taller. Mobile, athletic, able to play around the ground, and offer a target down the line.

This gives us

B: Doedee Payne Starcevich
HB: Coleman Andrews McKenna
C: Berry Neale McCluggage
HF: Rayner Hipwood Bailey
F: Cameron Daniher McCarthy
Foll: McInerney Dunkley Ashcroft
Bench: Wilmot, Fletcher

The last 2 to 3 spots IMO have to be capable of playing midfield. One is likely to be Levi. Allowing for Rayner and Bailey to stay forward and only occasionally go into the middle

I think we need to find a B grade midfielder with capacity to play forward.

Solving the ruck issue though I don't have answers for. If we had 5 on the bench you'd consider playing Fort or HSmith

 

[Scubaveg]

Either way

• we rushed McKenna back and he reinjured himself.
• we played Neal before he was ready, injured himself
• appear to have rushed Doedoo back and he injured himself

There's a pattern of rushing players back and not trusting younger players.



On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[briztoon]

The list is interesting from here.
Levi and Will both come in next year. That's two from the pies game gone.

Then add McKenna and kiddy and maybe Doedee.

That 5 from pies game lur.

Then guys like Prior, Sharp, Tunstill, Madden, Lane, Smith and Carter Michael have been around a while now. Clearly the coaching staff don't trust them.

Fagan made a comment in his press conference last night when questioned on the selections "they're the players we have".

Can see a clean out come end of this year.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Will to the midfield, Levi to the forward line. Wouldn’t want to put Levi straight in to midfield.