Training 2024 Preseason reports and discussion

[TFFM]

Watson is better against 17/18 year old kids than Ginnavin is against open age elite footballers. I will give you that.

However, Watson hasn’t played a single game of AFL and Ginnavin is a premiership player who kicked 40 goals in 2022.

Until Watson plies his trade at the highest level I don’t see how you can realistically conclude he is already better.

He’s only ever played footy against kids his own age - hasn’t he?

And yes I may be going a bit early but he looks special.

 

[Tall Tales and True]

He ain"t called 'the Wizard' for nothing!

On SM-S916B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Just watching him training I think he has more to his game. He's quick on the lead, takes the ball at full pace, one-grabs marks, and good at stoppages. Yes he needs to prove himself at the highest level, but he's got the tools.

Glad he has the tools. But to say he is the better AFL-level player now when one hasn't played a solitary minute at that level is worthy of being pulled up on. There are plenty of 18 year olds who have the tools and look the goods and then go on to deliver nowhere near that touted potential when they hit senior footy. I don't think Watson will be one of them - but when you are saying he is a better player than someone established at the level to the point where he kicked 40+ goals in his debut season is a big call.

 

[OnTheRocks]

Did you tell Dimma to sign his contract extension pronto! Don’t want him testing free agency.

Hopefully he takes a page from Punkys book and becomes a 1 club multiple premiership player

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Hopefully he takes a page from Punkys book and becomes a 1 club multiple premiership player

My favourite player for a while now and I will be bloody devastated if he plays elsewhere. I don't think he will go - but as underrated as Dimma is by the collective pinheads of the AFL media I bet he wouldn't be underrated by opposition clubs who would love to poach him without giving up picks for it. He would take a lot of defensive units to another level - I hope we are in constant touch with his management.

 

[cryptor]

My favourite player for a while now and I will be bloody devastated if he plays elsewhere. I don't think he will go - but as underrated as Dimma is by the collective pinheads of the AFL media I bet he wouldn't be underrated by opposition clubs who would love to poach him without giving up picks for it. He would take a lot of defensive units to another level - I hope we are in constant touch with his management.

Feels like one that will get done before the season starts with little fuss or fanfare. It would be very surprising to see him decide to leave now given most of his career with us has been through a transition period which we're now seeing the end of and hopefully a new era of success awaits.

 

[grumbleguts]

Watson is better than Ginnivan, if you've seen him play

Who's better if I haven't seen him play?

 

[Blackhawk42]

Watson is better against 17/18 year old kids than Ginnavin is against open age elite footballers. I will give you that.

However, Watson hasn’t played a single game of AFL and Ginnavin is a premiership player who kicked 40 goals in 2022.

Until Watson plies his trade at the highest level I don’t see how you can realistically conclude he is already better.

He’s only ever played footy against kids his own age - hasn’t he?

Watson was just about best on ground against the Port Adelaide SANFL side which included all the AFL listed Power players. I think that game can be found on YouTube actually.

 

[grumbleguts]

Yes it's a fair point you make. As you say when Frosty makes a mistake, he really does go all in on the mistake.

I remember one game this year where in the space of five minutes Frosty took two massive defensive marks deep in our defensive fifty but then straight away after both marks he has handballed to a player next to him flat footed and they got nailed in a tackle both times.

Once you could understand but to do it twice was classic Frost Ball!

His handball to a gold coast forward in the back pocket on the outer side at metricon did it for me. He was right in front of us so we saw his eyes. He looked straight at the gold coast player, handballed it to him and then his face changed to "Oh sh!t that's not one of our guys!" It was like he saw a player and just give the ball. THEN assess if it were a team mate.

 

[peetoo]

Watson was just about best on ground against the Port Adelaide SANFL side which included all the AFL listed Power players. I think that game can be found on YouTube actually.

I guess it’s what comes after when people think they’ve worked him out

 

[Slainte]

I guess it’s what comes after when people think they’ve worked him out

Exactly - which may be why Ginnivan's productivity dropped.

 

[smithomode]

If only he could learn to play within his limitations. He is quite good until he gets a rush of blood to his head and kicks it straight to an opposition player. Meanwhile he is out of position and unable to help defend the rebounding ball. I find it very frustrating that he seems unable to learn.

In his last 4 games this year he was obviously told to stop kicking the footy as much, about 1/3 ratio of kicks to handballs (this was definitely noticeable in the Richmond game). Over that period he averaged around 90% disposal efficiency. That was one key issue that he slowly started to clean up, but the defending is something I can't see a 30 year old player completely changing about his game.

 

[smithomode]

I don't think so.
I think it's a plan, and I think it's a good one.

Most people are risk averse, so I get that many will worry that we lose a quality defender.
Fortunately, (in my opinion), Sam seems not to be wired that way, and with risk, comes reward.

At the time of his drafting, most people would have thought of Hardwick as a forward, not as a defender.

He'd led the TAC cup season for goal kicking easily, with bags of 12,10 and 8 goals.
(That draft year included the last three Coleman Medallists, Charlie Curnow [twice] and Harry Mackay, who both also played the TAC cup season.

He beat the next highest scoring forward that season by 20 goals!!

He may well become a better forward than he is a defender.
He will provide another leading/marking option which will help spread the opposition defenders and defensive pressure to keep the ball locked in.

It is well worth the calculated risk in my opinion, as we can always move him back if our backline is getting smashed.

I can see both sides of the argument but if Hardwick plays majority forward next year, I can only see that ending horribly. Sure he could be great forward and that might be something that could work better when we're competing for finals, but for now...I don't think so. He is the 2nd most important player in a developing and unsettled (as in we don't have concrete back 6) backline. Removing him is like removing a foundation from a house.

Who is playing one on one against the best small forwards in the league (your Charlie Cameron's etc etc)? Truly there is not one person on the list that could play that role, in round 1 2024, even close to how well Hardwick does at the moment. Sure Hardwick could kick 5 goals but if the small forward down the other end is dominating because they're on the likes of Impey, Seamus, Bmac (all great players but cannot adequately defend one on one) it cancels out.

He's one of our great kicks down there. Doesn't matter how well he would go in our forward line, but if the ball is rarely getting down there because we don't have a player (besides Sicily) who can pick off those long, accurate kicks then it's a little pointless.

Who is taking most of the kick outs then? Sure it could be Sicily, but who else? Scrimshaw would be ok but anyone else is questionable either because poor disposal efficiency or because they're the running half backs we should be trying to kick it to.

Leadership is a massive one, we have Bruest, Gunston, Moore in the forward line. We need leaders down back, Impey is great in this area off field, but Sicily and Hardwick are the ones pointing and organising the young guys.

It'll pose problems in our forward line too. Where does Cmac, Moore, Breust, Ginnivan, Watson, Butler (Wingard later next season) all fit in. Sure some of them will be injured at some points or be playing at Box Hill. But we'd likely not pick anymore than 3 of those players if we're including Hardwick in the forward line, unless we opt to play smaller against specific opponents. Regardless of the 3 your choosing, we'd be missing someone pretty important. We're stacked in this area, we're not stacked with good one on one players in the backline (that's probably the part of the list with the greatest deficiency).

Even if I'm generous and say that he's 2 goals better than anyone you'd take out of the forward line, I believe we'd concede a lot more than 2 goals in our backline if he's not there.

The same argument has been made with moving Sicily forward, who was also drafted there, but I assume most sane Hawthorn supporters would know that has beee proven completely wrong.

If we throw him forward once or twice a game to get a bit of spark going, that would be great. Same as we could add Gunston/Day in the backline in close games or when teams are getting a run on against us. But I personally, don't really want to see anymore than that.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Be on the lookout for Bailey McDonald this year.

 

[Mr Lizard]

possibility: Hardwick is training as a forward so all the small defender work is done by others for the pre-season; maximum exposure for them.

 

[The Golden Glenferrie]

Be on the lookout for wingman extraordinaire Bailey McDonald this year.

Fixed that for you

 

[TheFourPillars]

Fixed that for you

He will be playing on the Half back line

 

[parsons nose]

Be on the lookout for Bailey McDonald this year.

Yes, I’ll be watching him with particular interest. I have him slated as our most improved player. I really like the way he goes about it.

 

[matey]

Looking forward to seeing a number of players, kids one year on or just starting out but re Weddle once he starts to learn and gain confidence in his running patterns ……. with his size and football ability could be anything!

 

[Bee Dee 63]

Your points are well made, and unquestionably our backline would be weaker for him moving forward.

Naturally, our backline won't need to contend with Toby Greene

4

Toby Greene

Age

31

Ht

182cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

22.7

5star

K

12.5

5star

HB

10.2

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

3.0

5star

G

1.2

4star

D

17.5

4star

K

9.5

4star

HB

8.0

4star

M

4.8

4star

T

1.0

2star

G

2.3

5star

D

26.6

5star

K

12.4

5star

HB

14.2

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

3.6

5star

G

0.0

1star

and Charlie Cameron

23

Charlie Cameron

Age

30

Ht

180cm

Wt

76kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.1

3star

K

8.4

3star

HB

3.7

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

3.2

5star

G

1.5

5star

D

9.6

2star

K

7.9

3star

HB

1.7

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.7

3star

G

1.9

5star

D

9.6

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

4.2

4star

M

1.4

2star

T

3.4

5star

G

1.2

4star

for more than three games next year. We also have the option of moving him back in those games if things look grim. There is daylight between those two and the next best small forward in the competition.

Your point regarding Sicily doesn't necessarily translate to Hardwick.
In his draft year he played midfield and forward kicking 26 goals from 16 games for the Western Jets.
He has been tried both forward and back at AFL level and is far more successful as a defender.

Conversely, Hardwick played solely as a forward in his draft year, also playing 16 games but returning 56 goals.
The critical point is that he is untried at AFL level as a forward.
His first full season was 2017 and the forward line comprised Roughy, Cyril, Poppy, Breust, Gunners and Sicily.
There was nobody there that an 18yo debutant could push out, so he debuted in defence and played 19 games, pushing out Durea.

I can see too much potential upside to our forward line, with the option of playing him back for the odd game.
I'm ok with all of Gunston, Wingard, Ginnivan, Chol, Watson etc. fighting for three spots, depending on the opposition and on injuries.

Sam will decide what he thinks is best, but he's shown with our midfield that he's not against throwing youngsters in at the deep end and challenging them to improve. Time will tell.

 

[MrPremiership]

He will be playing on the Half back line

Does that shorten the Amon to HBF experiment?

CJ, Impey, D'Ambrosio, potentially Scrimshaw, and now Bmac - with Amon moving back too.....how many HBF's can we play

 

[PT Bar None]

He will be playing on the Half back line

Shaping as the only team playing a 17 man half-back line.

Everyone except Hardwick!

 

[burner1]

Watson was just about best on ground against the Port Adelaide SANFL side which included all the AFL listed Power players. I think that game can be found on YouTube actually.

Watson Wasn’t even listed in the best. Had to go to hb to get a kick as couldn’t get anything going up forward. And the power sanfl side was pretty weak.

Scouting Notes: AFL Academy vs. Port Adelaide SANFL

The 2023 AFL Academy squad pushed Port Adelaide's SANFL side all the way. We noted the performances of all 30 national representatives.

central.rookieme.com

 

[theiaofseed]

Watson Wasn’t even listed in the best. Had to go to hb to get a kick as couldn’t get anything going up forward. And the power sanfl side was pretty weak.

Scouting Notes: AFL Academy vs. Port Adelaide SANFL

The 2023 AFL Academy squad pushed Port Adelaide's SANFL side all the way. We noted the performances of all 30 national representatives.

central.rookieme.com

Played a large part in 2 of the only 3 goals kicked in the first half before moving back, his move had nothing to do with in inability to impact the contest but more so due to the fact he was the only player that could potentially make something happen

 

[Hawk Vision]

View attachment 1875527


Played a large part in 2 of the only 3 goals kicked in the first half before moving back, his move had nothing to do with in inability to impact the contest but more so due to the fact he was the only player that could potentially make something happen

I watched that game only him and Harley had a good game. Most of the other U18’s were quiet that day