USA 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris (pt II)

[carltonchelsea]

If that were true Kamala would have won. But she had a billion dollar war chest and still lost.

Jibberish on stilts.
You stayed in the jungle, we evolved and sent rovers to Mars.
Now you want a nepo apartheid kid to rename the 4th planet in our solar system, Muskland!
You’re a aaa battery when a 9v is required!

 

[MPMonkeys]

Becs of Brighton

Monique from Toorak probably the poster child.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

The right path for the dems is the Bernie path focusing on the working class and what unites people, not divides them.

Agree 100%. Identity politics, for all its noble intentions, is by definition divisive. (How can “I’m different to you and deserve to be treated differently” not be?)

In a society as comprehensively corporatised and commercialised and commodified as ours, the only inequality whose pernicious effects can never be denied or undermined or trivialised at the end of the day is economic inequality.

Underpinning all sense of grievance about discrimination by race or gender or religion or whatever is the sense of economic opportunity denied.

That is why Bernie Sanders is so right. Fix economic inequality and you go a very long way to fixing all the other inequalities. The same can simply not be said about reversing the order.

In a sense, maybe this election result has been a blessing for progressives, to spell out in simply undeniable terms, the folly of where we’ve been heading, and what we need to refocus on to achieve justice and equality for all.

 

[Osho]

So maybe Sam Harris should have said Kamala should have actively distanced herself more from identity politics, but he made out like she was thumping the tub every day about trans rights.

I fee it undermined his argument a little, in what was otherwise a very powerful session.

He is right to focus on Trump’s pathological dishonesty and cheating, and on much of the media’s preference to let him get away with telling the most appalling lies.

At the very best, they remarked on his dishonesty. But they didn’t condemn it nearly enough.

I think Sam was crystal clear, as he usually is, that by not being willing to address those issues, by staying away from them during the election campaign, the issues were left smouldering away, for Repub ads to exploit.

I also think left media (notably cable news and print media) do go hard and often at Trump. But their market share is diminishing.

I agree it was a good upload by Sam, not that I agree necessarily, but food for thought, and his reasoning and presentation is compelling. I am still waiting for Sam to debate someone of substance wrt to Israel Gaza. Come on Sam, what's to fear?

 

[carltonchelsea]

Elron Musketeer bought Twitter for 44 billion US dollars with his mates in Russia and Saudi, now it’s worth 9 billion.
“Hey, let’s put him in charge of government efficiency”?
Hahahaha

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

As a general rule - it means well off white people who enjoy lecturing other people on how to think and act about issues that do not negatively impact them personally.

We used to call them snobs.

Hardly satisfactory.

I’ve never lectured anyone but (for example) I’ve been called “woke” for being convinced by the scientific evidence around anthropogenic climate change that we need to be urgently addressing it.

It’s impossible to make the case that climate change doesn’t affect each and every one of us personally. But concern about even that can be “woke” apparently.

Meaningless word.

 

[Osho]

Agree 100%. Identity politics, for all its noble intentions, is by definition divisive. (How can “I’m different to you and deserve to be treated differently” not be?)

In a society as comprehensively corporatised and commercialised and commodified as ours, the only inequality whose pernicious effects can never be denied or undermined or trivialised at the end of the day is economic inequality.

Underpinning all sense of grievance about discrimination by race or gender or religion or whatever is the sense of economic opportunity denied.

That is why Bernie Sanders is so right. Fix economic inequality and you go a very long way to fixing all the other inequalities. The same can simply not be said about reversing the order.

In a sense, maybe this election result has been a blessing for progressives, to spell out in simply undeniable terms, the folly of where we’ve been heading, and what we need to refocus on to achieve justice and equality for all.

I agree here. Skin colour, and genitalia, are lousy proxies for underprivilege. Why not go straight to the underprivilege itself, why put some misleading signifier before the actual.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I think Sam was crystal clear, as he usually is, that by not being willing to address those issues, by staying away from them during the election campaign, the issues were left smouldering away, for Repub ads to exploit.

I also think left media (notably cable news and print media) do go hard and often at Trump. But their market share is diminishing.

I agree it was a good upload by Sam, not that I agree necessarily, but food for thought, and his reasoning and presentation is compelling. I am still waiting for Sam to debate someone of substance wrt to Israel Gaza. Come on Sam, what's to fear?

Nah, just on that, I don’t agree. He literally said “now you can say that Kamala didn’t personally endorse extreme left positions” (or words to that effect) and then moved straight on.

Anyway, agree to disagree.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

C’mon Gonz, it was a word invented by African Americans to keep their kids safe from harm from deadly white folks that wished them harm, “Stay alert, stay awake, be aware of your surroundings and safety for you and your kind”, in the early 20th century.
Everything else attributed to its existence and meaning is an abrogation.
This is totally tiresome having to explain this to be honest.
**** white America for the coercion of this wonderful word into its current position.
**** em

Um I think I’m agreeing with you…

 

[Xtreme]

Jibberish on stilts.
You stayed in the jungle, we evolved and sent rovers to Mars.
Now you want a nepo apartheid kid to rename the 4th planet in our solar system, Muskland!
You’re a aaa battery when a 9v is required!

And yet the people you mock have the power
While Kamala is being booted out and will fade away to obscurity

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

but if someone told you what it meant you’d just ignore it and be spotted in another thread months later saying you have NFI what it is

Oh plenty of people have told me what it means.

And their definitions are, to a T, completely unsatisfactory.

As used by right wingers, it appears to mean “not right wing”.

In other words, just a code word for “let’s pile on to this person for not believing in what right wingers believe”.

 

[carltonchelsea]

Um I think I’m agreeing with you…

The facts don’t care about our makey uppey meanings of words, they just is what they is, and my definition is the true definition, whether I like it or not.

 

[ElectricG]

Oh plenty of people have told me what it means.

And their definitions are, to a T, completely unsatisfactory.

As used by right wingers, it appears to mean “not right wing”.

In other words, just a code word for “let’s pile on to this person for not believing in what right wingers believe”.

In my observation it means any combination of the following:

• having socially progressive views that are a bit niche or strange
• having socially progressive views that exaggerate the problem or are illegitimate
• having concern for legitimate minority issues but having them too high in their list of priorities, or generally just being too strident

Naturally the line is drawn in different places for different people. It’s more like the word “ridiculous” in that it doesn’t come with a t test for what meets its criteria.

If you can’t process the meaning of it, it probably means you aren’t able to realise when this type of thing goes too far. If this is the case, you still don’t need to persist with pretending to not know what it means.

 

[carltonchelsea]

And yet the people you mock have the power
While Kamala is being booted out and will fade away to obscurity

Enjoy your eventual irrelevance, it’s coming sooner than you’re capable of imagining!
I’m not partial to sadism, but a small part of me will ignore my base reaction for care of my fellow Homo-sapiens when the next Category 6 Hurricane eventually makes landfall in Florida(hopefully Mara Lago as ground zero with the entire family on site).
And a new category of strength rips thru Tornado Alley, with all those FEMA hating MAGA voters, waiting for their socialism helpers.
I’ll just casually saddle up my beautiful Staffy, take her for a long walk and justify my ambivalence to Kamala being a woman, and a woman of colour, whilst singing a mashup of “Imagine” and “Rock the Casbah”.
It’s the little things in life sometimes, you and trump understand this, just ask Stormy!

 

[JB1975]

Softening a bit at five minutes to midnight doesn’t work. And nor does going full “they’re eating the pets”.

I personally believe that the road to vanquishing trump doesn’t need to involve any streak of populism. They just need to wake up to that fact that these types of politics are the domain of CEOs and a few internet people, and are utterly repellant to everyone else.

Again, if they were to renounce these politics and purge the party of all these types of operators, I genuinely believe they would have wiped the floor with Trump in 2016 and 2024. And don’t do it just before election. They need to establish a track record of being the type of people who can pass the “what is a woman?” test.

In order to beat their opponents, the Democrats simply need to adopt the same position on social issues as their opponents.

That's a truly fascinating analysis.

 

[ElectricG]

In order to beat their opponents, the Democrats simply need to adopt the same position on social issues as their opponents.

That's a truly fascinating analysis.

Indeed. Who said that?

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Oh plenty of people have told me what it means.

And their definitions are, to a T, completely unsatisfactory.

As used by right wingers, it appears to mean “not right wing”.

In other words, just a code word for “let’s pile on to this person for not believing in what right wingers believe”.

Somebody posted this earlier

“Woke" is seen as an overly zealous and divisive ideology that prioritizes identity politics and social justice causes at the expense of individual freedoms and societal cohesion. It’s often criticized as a form of political correctness that stifles free speech, promotes cancel culture, and forces people to conform to a narrow set of progressive beliefs. Critics argue that "woke" culture fosters division, encourages victimhood, and undermines traditional values like personal responsibility and meritocracy.

 

[JB1975]

Indeed. Who said that?

You did.

Apparently the Dems need to be as comically fixated on trans people and pass the so-called 'what is a woman' test. In other words, give in to the bigotry and make yourself a winner.

No more 'wokeness' for the Democrats. No more acknowledgment that race is part of the experience of American life, I suppose.

Just pretend that the country has no history, that it's an amorphous mass of just Americans, but perhaps add some reference to a return to greatness?

 

[ElectricG]

You did.

Apparently the Dems need to be as comically fixated on trans people and pass the so-called 'what is a woman' test. In other words, give in to the bigotry and make yourself a winner.

No more 'wokeness' for the Democrats. No more acknowledgment that race is part of the experience of American life, I suppose.

Just pretend that the country has no history, that it's an amorphous mass of just Americans, but perhaps add some reference to a return to greatness?

Nah. They just need to remove it from their playbook. Being able to say what a woman is isn’t giving into bigotry. It’s course correcting; this question would not have caused a democratic candidate of 15 years ago to have a brain malfunction even if they were the socially aware party back then also.

Chopping off this rotten branch of their politics isn’t walking back on their principles. It’s just getting their shit together.

 

[Blue1980]

Agree 100%. Identity politics, for all its noble intentions, is by definition divisive. (How can “I’m different to you and deserve to be treated differently” not be?)

In a society as comprehensively corporatised and commercialised and commodified as ours, the only inequality whose pernicious effects can never be denied or undermined or trivialised at the end of the day is economic inequality.

Underpinning all sense of grievance about discrimination by race or gender or religion or whatever is the sense of economic opportunity denied.

That is why Bernie Sanders is so right. Fix economic inequality and you go a very long way to fixing all the other inequalities. The same can simply not be said about reversing the order.

In a sense, maybe this election result has been a blessing for progressives, to spell out in simply undeniable terms, the folly of where we’ve been heading, and what we need to refocus on to achieve justice and equality for all.

It doesn't mean to capitulate to the right wing framing either and demonising. One can have the above message and still be supportive of minorities. It just needs to be in that order, and always explained in the greater context of helping the working class majority against the common enemy, the rich elite billionaires and corporations.

 

[JB1975]

Somebody posted this earlier

“Woke" is seen as an overly zealous and divisive ideology that prioritizes identity politics and social justice causes at the expense of individual freedoms and societal cohesion. It’s often criticized as a form of political correctness that stifles free speech, promotes cancel culture, and forces people to conform to a narrow set of progressive beliefs. Critics argue that "woke" culture fosters division, encourages victimhood, and undermines traditional values like personal responsibility and meritocracy.

Another way of putting it:

'Woke' is a term used by people who resent any discussion of or initiative towards people who are in some way marginalised or disadvantaged. They resent the acknowledgment of any such disadvantage. It is, apparently, a threat to 'social cohesion' (i.e. their own wellbeing) to identify the ways in which race, gender, sexuality, and disability might impact upon a person's destiny in the US. They especially resent the idea that more advantaged elements of society should take any responsibility for having to ameliorate the disadvantage of others, while the demand for simple respect is often countered by the purported threat to 'free speech' (i.e. freedom to be an offensive a-hole). Such people are most offended when people 'of their own kind' accept the presence of disadvantage and the need to remedy it.

 

[zumahawk]

And yet the people you mock have the power
While Kamala is being booted out and will fade away to obscurity

Power is temporary. Goes back and forth between Democrats and Republicans. Matt Gaetz, Donald Trump and every politician are able to be mocked and joked about.

 

[Blue1980]

Nah. They just need to remove it from their playbook. Being able to say what a woman is isn’t giving into bigotry. It’s course correcting; this question would not have caused a democratic candidate of 15 years ago to have a brain malfunction even if they were the socially aware party back then also.

Chopping off this rotten branch of their politics isn’t walking back on their principles. It’s just getting their shit together.

Thing is they really didn't lean into that at all in their campaign. The issue is they were too wishy washy, and not a clear narrative, message.

Blaming "woke" is just a cop out, the landscape on that stuff hasn't changed in the last 4-5 years, cost of living was the main issue and basically all incumbent govts in the western world have been losing regardless of what side of politics they are on.

I mean you have a large amount of people who voted trump then dems down ballot. People voting for Trump and AOC, reasons given by those people is they both seem real, in other words a lot of people would prefer literally anything than the status quo.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

And yet the people you mock have the power
While Kamala is being booted out and will fade away to obscurity

Remind us. As a regularly mocked user, what powers do you have?

 

[JB1975]

Nah. They just need to remove it from their playbook. Being able to say what a woman is isn’t giving into bigotry. It’s course correcting; this question would not have caused a democratic candidate of 15 years ago to have a brain malfunction even if they were the socially aware party back then also.

Chopping off this rotten branch of their politics isn’t walking back on their principles. It’s just getting their shit together.

It's a bit more than part of a 'playbook'. What the anti-woke are really trying to correct is the course of social movements which began in the 1970s, which they'd describe as 'political correctness gone mad'.

The real problem of the Democrats is that they've abandoned any real commitment to economic fairness. They are Wall Street. They haven't given a serious f*** about the people since the 1960s.

At the same time, they've inherited and pushed the social legacies of the 1970s, which leaves them looking like what they are: a party with a token commitment to disadvantage while ignoring the fact that the US is one of the most unequal countries in the world.

A few decades of pushing this brand created Don and crucified the Dems.

It's not 'anti-woke' which will save them, it's anti-greed.