Fixture 2025 Fixture Discussion

[Lindsay_Gilbee]

Besides a couple of flogs in Sydney I haven’t heard one person like opening round. Can’t believe they’re doing it again.

Ruined the fixture so much this year. Hopefully we get it this time so we don’t have to wait till after teams have had two byes before ours…

 

[LondonBulldog]

Because the club still had to at least partially reimburse the home team for the fact that free tickets are being given away, a cost to the club. We also have to consider that Ballarat tickets are still "accessible" for Melbourne based fans so there's an argument that they don't need to be replaced, even if we're treating them as a separate ticketing category

That offsets some of the money gained for selling matches interstate.

Despite the fact that Ballarat tickets are more expensive, or that Docklands games are now divided up only per 9 games and not 10, the club can make the argument that having the ability to physically access the Ballarat games (even at cost) without having to jump on a plane to get to our 11th home game of the year offers a value proposition that doesn't merit the club paying for replacement games. And I'm inclined to agree with them.


You're assuming the AFL would simply say yes to this. There's no guarantee that they would, and we have to assume they haven't, or at least our lobbying efforts would expunge some our built up political capital with the AFL that is better spent elsewhere with other fixture or non-fixture demands.


They were still bigger clubs though at the time.

AFL Tables - Crowds 1988

If we wanted to prove ourselves to be a big enough club to play MCG games consistently, we shouldn't have made a range of poor off-field and on-field decisions through the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's, that resulted in us being a relatively smaller club than those since then. We have to live with that reality of the fact that our club did that we're a smaller club as a result. All we can do is claw our way back within the reasonable parameters that we can, and there's arguably small but valid evidence of that since our 2016 flag, where our attendances, memberships and revenues are slowly but noticeably increasing compared the three other small Melbourne clubs. Maybe one day we could be like Carlton, Collingwood and Essendon, but it'll be a slow burn proven by our club's ability to generate crowds and revenues from the fans we already have (of which Ballarat is part), but it'll be generational and won't be for decades, if at all.

Just on your replacement games. So when we first moved 2 games to Ballarat we got replacement games in Melbourne for the first 3 years. After Covid, it disappeared, yet my membership went up. So the club did not lose any money they took the chance to take advantage of a situation. They were not "free" tickets as you state as they were part of my 11 game membership which included two replacement games. I paid for that right, which was then excluded for no reason given at the time. Like I said membership went up, so a big free kick for the club and a loss for members after covid which I thought was poor. Plenty of clubs still sell memberships with replacement games. We chose to take the cash, no other way around it.

 

[Libbaaaa]

Besides a couple of flogs in Sydney I haven’t heard one person like opening round. Can’t believe they’re doing it again.

Ruined the fixture so much this year. Hopefully we get it this time so we don’t have to wait till after teams have had two byes before ours…

Easiest way is to have to 2 QLD and 2 NSW teams play each other in round 1 and have the 4 VIC teams play each other as well.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Just on your replacement games. So when we first moved 2 games to Ballarat we got replacement games in Melbourne for the first 3 years.

This involves reimbursing the home team of those games, that's the point I'm trying to make.

After Covid, it disappeared, yet my membership went up. So the club did not lose any money they took the chance to take advantage of a situation.

The club is trying to raise revenue. Whether it's too expensive or fair or not can be debated, but supporting the Bulldogs still remains cheaper to get game access than basically every other team in the league.

They were not "free" tickets as you state as they were part of my 11 game membership which included two replacement games.

But that was only ever a package the club elected to offer on the basis that they were willing to reimburse whatever home team hosted the Dogs that would have otherwise gotten the tickets at face value.

The cost of it was priced into the 11 game membership in the first place, but it was just how the Dogs elected to structure their membership package for a given year, it wasn't inherent into the Membership.

This is clear in the current branding - we do not sell 11 game memberships anymore, we sell 9 game memberships. The club is allowed to change and adjust how it structures its membership packages over time. Are you saying that they shouldn't? That it's wrong to?

Keep in mind that previous 11 game membership in theory gave us access to home games in Sydney, Canberra, Darwin, Cairns. It just required getting on a flight to use that ticket. The club then elected to, provided you didn't use your barcode for those games, purchase tickets from the home team of the team hosting our replacement game, and then on-sell them as part of the membership. Of course, we did offer the replacement games because at one point it made sense in terms of revenue generation (we priced it into the membership, bulk purchased tickets from the home team at a discount). Naturally at some point is failed to make financial sense, so we ceased to do it. It continues to make financial sense to offer the overall package of all Away games in Melbourne, but not specifically one pre-determined replacement game among those.

When you buy an interstate team's Melbourne membership, part of the cost of that membership is to go to reimbursing the home team of those matches. When we host Fremantle, there are people who have game access because they merely purchased a membership through Fremantle's website, even though it's our home game and we're entitled to receive revenue from Fremantle fans entering our stadium. We do that, through indirect reimbursement from Fremantle, no different to the replacement games. In a similar vein to us removing the replacement games as it wasn't a good financial strategy for us, Fremantle don't have to offer a Melbourne based membership if it doesn't make financial sense to do so, and can tell their Melbourne-based Fremantle fans to just buy tickets at the gate. It clearly does, so they continue to, but it is at theoretically possible for them to not offer that membership category.

I think it's fine for the Dogs to have made this decision, in the context of the fact, that we have 11 games home games in the state of Victoria (assuming that we would have had the same away games anyway), even if it's more expensive. I can pick and choose if I want to go to an away game in Melbourne (or just buy all away games as a package), understanding that the ticket revenue goes to the team hosting. But I like the fact that I have access without jumping on a plane to all 11 of the Dogs' home fixtures as an overall trade-off.

I paid for that right,

There never is inherently a right to one membership package over another, which is strange to me.

You can continue to purchase various different memberships, such as 3, 6, 9, 9 + all Melbourne away, 11 (including Ballarat), 11+ all Victorian away, at different price points and with different seating arrangement that suits you.

which was then excluded for no reason given at the time.

I agree that the club could have maybe communicated their reasoning a bit better. However, if there's no other reason than "it simply makes more financial sense to do so", I can understand why they wouldn't have, because the foundational logic is no different than explaining why they raise prices or whatever. The club intends to raise revenue and balance its books.

Like I said membership went up, so a big free kick for the club and a loss for members after covid which I thought was poor. Plenty of clubs still sell memberships with replacement games. We chose to take the cash, no other way around it.

All of this is fair, but I don't see how the replacement game argument is any different than the overall view simply not wanting memberships to be too expensive. I don't disagree with that overall viewpoint - I would prefer memberships not to be too expensive overall too, clearly - but I still can't complain generally, as buying a membership is still cheaper than buying tickets at face value, allows me to be a voting member of the club (I ascribe value that above just the game access), is determined part of an overall value proposition that gives me access to 11 games in Victoria and not 10 + whatever away games (even at an increased cost/travel time for the 10th game, offsetting the lack of flights required for the 11th), priority ticketing access for finals, etc., gives more money to the club than to the AFL, and remains generally cheaper than basically all other AFL clubs in for similar value-for-money propositions. The fact that membership revenue and numbers continue to rise reflects that reality.

I am not entirely of the view that simply because I give my support to the club, that they have to be generous back to me through extremely cheap membership or ticketing. In a sense, I find that generosity is given not through cheap ticketing or memberships, but the fact that the club is providing an entertainment and community product, is financially stable and competitive on the field. It is still providing a product (voting rights and AFL game access) in a cheaper manner for what is essentially a similar product to the 17 other clubs doing the same thing. A lot of the attitudes on this board (especially from old timers) seems to be because they simply dedicate support to the club, things should be cheap. I agree with some elements of that argument but not wholly.

I think the club could be more generous with things like providing discounts to longer-term members, for instance. $50 off the membership cost of your 10th year, $100 off your 20th year (even for the one year alone) etc. It wouldn't cost the club a lot - really, only a few thousand members have genuinely had 10 years of consecutive memberships without a break - and people will feel less aggrieved by the points you're making, without it being a huge dent to raising revenue.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Easiest way is to have to 2 QLD and 2 NSW teams play each other in round 1 and have the 4 VIC teams play each other as well.

Would never happen because a large reason for the fact that opening round exists is to make it an "event" and activate the local and travelling fans of big clubs to make GC and GWS's home crowds seem less crap. They played Richmond and Collingwood, who provide the biggest away crowds in the competition, for a reason. It then unlocks more flexible fixturing and matchups for those two teams to maximise crowds and revenue for the rest of the season, with byes around Anzac, doubling up on other matchups, etc. etc.

 

[Libbaaaa]

Would never happen because a large reason for the fact that opening round exists is to make it an "event" and activate the local and travelling fans of big clubs to make GC and GWS's home crowds seem less crap. They played Richmond and Collingwood, who provide the biggest away crowds in the competition, for a reason. It then unlocks more flexible fixturing and matchups for those two teams to maximise crowds and revenue for the rest of the season, with byes around Anzac, doubling up on other matchups, etc. etc.

Yeah I mean keep the BS fixture of Opening Round against VIC opponents but then in actual Round 1 the week after have the Lions play the Suns, Giants play the Swans and say Hawks/Pies and Cats/Bombers are some shit.

 

[Dogs 13]

This involves reimbursing the home team of those games, that's the point I'm trying to make.

The club is trying to raise revenue. Whether it's too expensive or fair or not can be debated, but supporting the Bulldogs still remains cheaper to get game access than basically every other team in the league.

This just isn't true, in fact I'd argue that we're the most expensive club per GA match entry.
Let's use our basic 9 game GA adult membership which is $335.
Collingwood GA to all home games $245
Carlton GA to all home games $250
Hawthorn GA to all 11 home games and/or replacement games $250
North GA to all home games and/or replacement games $259
Essendon GA to all home games $330

As London Bulldog stated we had access to 11 games before the Ballarat thing started, membership then dropped to 9 games with no corresponding decrease in cost.

We've been played.

 

[Libbaaaa]

This just isn't true, in fact I'd argue that we're the most expensive club per GA match entry.
Let's use our basic 9 game GA adult membership which is $335.
Collingwood GA to all home games $245
Carlton GA to all home games $250
Hawthorn GA to all 11 home games and/or replacement games $250
North GA to all home games and/or replacement games $259
Essendon GA to all home games $330

As London Bulldog stated we had access to 11 games before the Ballarat thing started, membership then dropped to 9 games with no corresponding decrease in cost.

We've been played.

Isn't our 9 game GA membership $220?

 

[threenewpadlocks]

This just isn't true, in fact I'd argue that we're the most expensive club per GA match entry.
Let's use our basic 9 game GA adult membership which is $335.
Collingwood GA to all home games $245
Carlton GA to all home games $250
Hawthorn GA to all 11 home games and/or replacement games $250
North GA to all home games and/or replacement games $259
Essendon GA to all home games $330

As London Bulldog stated we had access to 11 games before the Ballarat thing started, membership then dropped to 9 games with no corresponding decrease in cost.

We've been played.

That's not true because GA access doesn't practically enable you to actually access those games when the demand is there and they deem them fully ticketed. Which is often.

In all of those games, you're only buying the free access to the game with the theoretical possibility that demand isn't so great, which is never the case (such as literally every Anzac Day etc. but an increasing number of games otherwise for those teams). Otherwise you have to pay to upgrade a seat, which you're not even guaranteed to be able to get access to, or just miss out.

Essendon has not had a GA accessible game in for years at Docklands. You're paying $330 for the effective right to then subsequently pay another $10 or $20 per game or (or whatever it is) whatever to get to go to a given game, which if it sells out quickly, you might even miss out on.

Never mind the fact that there's no real limit to these clubs selling reserved seats, so if they sell more reserved seat memberships, that limits the pool of potential seats that can be GA upgraded

For instance, this is from the Collingwood terms and conditions:

Important information about 'fully-ticketed' games for Members with GA access​

4​

A 'fully-ticketed' game is one where all patrons must hold a reserved seat, i.e. there is no general admission (GA) access.
Any Home & Away season match may be classed as fully-ticketed at the discretion of the home team, stadium, and AFL. This decision is based primarily on ticket sales and member attendance forecasts, and is made to ensure patron safety when large crowds are expected.
If a game is classed as fully-ticketed, the Club will communicate this to Members with GA access at the earliest possible time.
When this happens, Members with GA access to the game in question must upgrade to a discounted reserved seat if they wish to attend.
Our Anzac Day match is the only default fully-ticketed game, but any game could be classed this way.
As general advice, the Club strongly recommends that Members with GA access upgrade to a discounted reserved seat for any blockbuster game, even if that game has not yet been classed as fully-ticketed.
General admission access is always subject to capacity.

Swans clash deemed fully ticketed match

GA members must secure a reserved seat for round 23.

www.essendonfc.com.au

I will concede that in some edge cases (e.g. Hawks' "flexi 10" membership of 10 GA tickets in any combination of games) is cheaper at $240. But it's effectively the same cost. And you can still in effect use a GA Dogs membership to every single home game we play at Docklands - you may have to rock up early to ensure you have a seat - but at least it's not "fully ticketed" and you're not paying an additional amount for the ticket.

That being said, for the sake of argument, lets consider:

• The dogs move two of its least in-demand games to Ballarat (often vs Gold Coast, or Adelaide). Those games are fundamentally a lower value proposition if played in Melbourne, through smaller crowds. The value to them is not proportionate to the value of attending a game vs. a Melbourne-based club, for instance, so losing these games is not of the same value if we theoretically "lost" a game in the 9 game membership if we played another Melbourne-based team in Ballarat, for some reason.
• Subsequently you're paying for the 9 most in-demand home games for the Dogs.
• You don't have to spend any extra effort or money to upgrade any of these games, which is an additional cost in time, money and effort.
• Very few people are actually getting value of their 10th and 11th game, because they're not attending the 10th and 11th game in Melbourne - they're doing other things. Therefore, while an additional 2 games for the Hawks cost $30 more, which the 11th game is effectively "free" proportionally, the fact that the Hawks can get this game is of minimal value - not the $30 value, at least - because the benefit of getting access to the 11th game is less than access to the 10th game, which is in turn less than the 9th game.
• This is why the Dogs sell 6 home games at $160 ($26.67 per ticket) but then sell the additional 3 games for only an increase in cost of $60 ($20 per game). The 7th, 8th and 9th most desirable game for a given fan is less worth to them, so the club can't continue the proportional increase in cost of $26.67 per game ticket and expect similar takeup in membership, so they offer a discount.
• I get that this is similar to our 9 games for $99 promotions (so it not comparing apples to oranges) but the club also has offered cheap Ballarat tickets as well. I purchased an add-on for $22 for both Ballarat games last year, once it was offered. In any case, the fact that we can offer 9 games for $99 (even as a promotion which is not a fair comparison) just proves that point. If you solely wanted to go to the 9 most in-demand Essendon games, and absolutely guarantee it before the season began for practical purposes, it would cost you close to $1000.

 

[Dogs 13]

Isn't our 9 game GA membership $220?

My apologies $335 is for a Flexi 9 game membership. Yes it is $220 for GA.
I couldn't get in to view all the packages as it kept sending me to Ticketmaster

Still more expensive per game than Pies, Blues, Hawks and North

 

[Dogs 13]

That's not true because GA access doesn't practically enable you to actually access those games when the demand is there and they deem them fully ticketed. Which is often.

In all of those games, you're only buying the free access to the game with the theoretical possibility that demand isn't so great, which is never the case (such as literally every Anzac Day etc. but an increasing number of games otherwise for those teams). Otherwise you have to pay to upgrade a seat, which you're not even guaranteed to be able to get access to, or just miss out.

Essendon has not had a GA accessible game in for years at Docklands. You're paying $330 for the effective right to then subsequently pay another $10 or $20 per game or (or whatever it is) whatever to get to go to a given game, which if it sells out quickly, you might even miss out on.

Never mind the fact that there's no real limit to these clubs selling reserved seats, so if they sell more reserved seat memberships, that limits the pool of potential seats that can be GA upgraded

For instance, this is from the Collingwood terms and conditions:

Swans clash deemed fully ticketed match

GA members must secure a reserved seat for round 23.

www.essendonfc.com.au

I will concede that in some edge cases (e.g. Hawks' "flexi 10" membership of 10 GA tickets in any combination of games) is cheaper at $240. But it's effectively the same cost. And you can still in effect use a GA Dogs membership to every single home game we play at Docklands - you may have to rock up early to ensure you have a seat - but at least it's not "fully ticketed" and you're not paying an additional amount for the ticket.

That being said, for the sake of argument, lets consider:

• The dogs move two of its least in-demand games to Ballarat (often vs Gold Coast, or Adelaide). Those games are fundamentally a lower value proposition if played in Melbourne, through smaller crowds. The value to them is not proportionate to the value of attending a game vs. a Melbourne-based club, for instance, so losing these games is not of the same value if we theoretically "lost" a game in the 9 game membership if we played another Melbourne-based team in Ballarat, for some reason.
• Subsequently you're paying for the 9 most in-demand home games for the Dogs.
• You don't have to spend any extra effort or money to upgrade any of these games, which is an additional cost in time, money and effort.
• Very few people are actually getting value of their 10th and 11th game, because they're not attending the 10th and 11th game in Melbourne - they're doing other things. Therefore, while an additional 2 games for the Hawks cost $30 more, which the 11th game is effectively "free" proportionally, the fact that the Hawks can get this game is of minimal value - not the $30 value, at least - because the benefit of getting access to the 11th game is less than access to the 10th game, which is in turn less than the 9th game.
• This is why the Dogs sell 6 home games at $160 ($26.67 per ticket) but then sell the additional 3 games for only an increase in cost of $60 ($20 per game). The 7th, 8th and 9th most desirable game for a given fan is less worth to them, so the club can't continue the proportional increase in cost of $26.67 per game ticket and expect similar takeup in membership, so they offer a discount.

Yes, I did consider the difficulty of actually trying to attend games with those big clubs playing, I was just trying to compare at the base level of membership and attendance.
Overly simplified I know.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Overly simplified I know.

To the point of being impractical for how these games actually play out and the decisions people have to make.

If you want to, right now, for all essential intents and purposes, be guaranteed to attend all Essendon games in 2025, the minimum spend is $820:

https://membership.essendonfc.com.au/membership/gold-reserved-bay (and you still have to spend the effort to book each ticket on an individual basis, pay fees with that, and I believe that they're selling more memberships than they physically have seats in the bay, so you could theoretically miss out if all or close to all of the membership holders of this class buy a ticket. You do get GF access though, which costs $150 additionally with the Dogs, and GA access to away games (though it's always fully ticketed), which probably adds $200 off the value - but you're still outlaying the $820 in the first place, so that's the minimum spend, even if there's extra benefits.)

The cheapest way is $554, but there is a several year waitlist that requires the purchase of limited-game memberships to stay on the waitlist, and no GF access: https://membership.essendonfc.com.au/membership/bronze

These categories are similar for Richmond, Collingwood and Carlton - perhaps when these teams play an interstate team at the MCG, sometimes, but not always, you can get GA access through a GA ticket. But given that's only for like 3-5 of their home games a year:

Why pay the $125 in advance at Collingwood: https://membership.collingwoodfc.com.au/membership/flexi-4-25

When you can just play it by ear on a game-by-game basis and pay the $27-$40 or whatever it costs for a face value ticket given that the difference in cost for those specific games in negligible, and at least you can hold back on your purchase until you're certain that you're free and available to go, and you still may miss out on a specific game you're intending those 4 games to go to if it unexpectedly becomes fully ticketed (say one of them is a top-of-the-table clash against Brisbane who just won the flag or whatever, which happens), with that $31.5 you spent as part of the $125 intending to go to that. Especially as Collingwood does not constitutionally give voting rights unless you purchase guaranteed access to all games (so essentially reserved seat holders). I do suppose you get a scarf or a merchandise voucher, though. You're still paying $31 a ticket to the four least in-demand games, and do not get to go to the more in-demand games (like it being more likely to have a friend or partner support another Melbourne-based opponent that makes it a more appealing game for you).

All of this contrasts to the fact that as a Dogs fan, if you want to go to the 9 most in-demand home games that we play - often against Melbourne-based opponents, because we siphon off our random GC games to Ballarat - you can do so for roughly $25 a ticket, and you're all but virtually guaranteed to get a seat for no extra cost or effort other than maybe rocking up a bit earlier for our occasional home game against another Big 4 Melbourne club before it hits capacity (though not yet fully ticketed).

 

[Spiritof82]

Its actually 100 years since we joined the VFL/AFL but it isn't our 100th season, 2024 was out 100th season, 2025 will be our 101st season

 

[nnuckzz]

What's the next major sporting event that might take a ****teenth of attention away from the AFL? Remember the pricks releasing it the day of the Socceroos match against Argentina?

Australia vs Saudi Arabia, already sold out AAMI Park a week or two ago, is on the scheduled day of fixture release

 

[Hoges64]

Australia vs Saudi Arabia, already sold out AAMI Park a week or two ago, is on the scheduled day of fixture release

Of course it is...

 

[Libbaaaa]

I love my futball as much as my football, but the fixture being released on that day is not going to impact the Australia/Saudi game. Maintsteam doesn't care unless it is the World Cup.

 

[Hoges64]

I love my futball as much as my football, but the fixture being released on that day is not going to impact the Australia/Saudi game. Maintsteam doesn't care unless it is the World Cup.

You are correct, but it's still just another instance of the pettiness of the AFL, even in the off-season they try their hardest to not let any other sport that's a threat to their participation numbers get any clear air.