Autopsy 2nd Elimination Final, 2023: St.Kilda v GWS *WEBSTER 150TH* *BATTLE 100TH*

[Veer Right]

I think up against a c grade ruckman who most couldn’t pick out of a lineup he needed to at least halve the tap contests and beat him around the ground.

He absolutely flogged him around the ground (think he had 30 touches) but got properly torched in the hitouts.

That’s where GWS won the game, with a ruckman most couldn’t pick out of a lineup.

You haven't seen Briggs play to make that comment. He's going to be top shelf and every bit A grade material.

 

[Veer Right]

Yep don’t think he has the tools to be the player we want him to be. Made the call and didn’t attack him personally. What’s the issue and why are you so emotional?

He's weak in a contest is my only concern. Numerous times throughout the year he won't fully commit. Put him on a high calorie muscle building diet to build up that lambs frame, and maybe take us wresting training too.

As mentioned by others, he could of easily went in this years draft so lets give him another preseason and see what happens.

 

[Veer Right]

5 minutes to go and Owens is in the centre and gets the clearance and spreads away bombing it into 50.
Would’ve been nice to see more of this.
Was completely wasted up forward today.

One of on main hopes for the preseason is that Owens trains fully with the mids and plays that position full time in 2024.

 

[Max the great]

He's weak in a contest is my only concern. Numerous times throughout the year he won't fully commit. Put him on a high calorie muscle building diet to build up that lambs frame, and maybe take us wresting training too.

As mentioned by others, he could of easily went in this years draft so lets give him another preseason and see what happens.

Isn't he one of the youngest players in the AFL? Or the youngest? He's talent is so obvious.. Him and our other youngsters are the reason we got to where we did this season. I can't understand why anyone would choose to slag him after today. Plenty of others with real experience didn't rock up and we choose to slag the 18yo who looks a future star.

 

[Max the great]

He's like this every week lol painful to read

Haha. I was going in to bat for our young gun Poo and was called a w***** and a Muppet. And I after sitting in row A on level one said it didn't rain and you are saying I'm arguing. I'm not arguing. It's just confusing me.

 

[Sully111]

Starting to really worry about Higgins.
Have always been a Higgins fan but lately he doesn’t crumb he tries to out body and out mark bigger opposition. He doesn’t chase out of defence.
I’m just not sure what he brings atm.
Hope he turns it around next year.

He was very ordinary.

 

[bergholt]

Yep don’t think he has the tools to be the player we want him to be. Made the call and didn’t attack him personally. What’s the issue and why are you so emotional?

Ross called out in the presser a time where Green pushed Phillipou off the ball, and made the point that it's technique because he's young and hasn't learnt it yet. He'll get stronger and he's smart enough to do the work on how he plays the game, I think it's way too soon to make any sort of call on him tbh.

 

[bergholt]

Haha. I was going in to bat for our young gun Poo and was called a w***** and a Muppet. And I after sitting in row A on level one said it didn't rain and you are saying I'm arguing. I'm not arguing. It's just confusing me.

Nah was definitely raining at quarter time, not super heavy though and didn't last long.

 

[phantom13]

He is 23 mate.

We are nailing a kid for demeanour at 23 and is practically averaging 2 goals a game across his career and will be in 12 months time.

Are we as supporters not at this point picking at s**t from frustration?

His most recent game prior to today. He got a holding the ball free kick against Geelong.

If he wasn’t bringing the RTB non negotiables he wouldn’t be playing.

Can he Improve? Hell yes
Is he the finished product? Hell no

But anyone thinking King isn’t close to being a star is blind or blinkered at what we have.

And 100 goals a year….. do those forwards exist anymore?

Again, I’m not nailing him. Your third last paragraph is all I’m saying and attitude and effort are part of it, at times his are poor.

Do the impassioned “leave Britney alone” thing to this attacking him, not those suggesting he can be better.

As for the 100 goal thing, genuinely think him and Charlie could. Max averaged 2.5 a game in an interrupted season off an interrupted pre season. In my opinion he’s absolutely capable of it.

 

[phantom13]

You haven't seen Briggs play to make that comment. He's going to be top shelf and every bit A grade material.

He’s also 23 and played like 23 games. Perhaps today was his breakout but your admitting here he’s not A grade yet is he?

**** me roma gets his ass handed to him by a bloke who hasn’t managed more than 15 games in a season yet and all of sudden Briggs is Polly Farmer and Adam Goodes all rolled into one.

 

[beside the seaside]

Every time we lose Max cops it. He almost singlehandedly dragged us back into the game just before half time. He is playing through a serious shoulder injury. He had to deal with a forward leader being withdrawn the day of the game with a serious issue. He got very little from the umpires and basically had a man hanging off him at every contest.

Max is the least of our worries. It is exhausting having to see him cop it after every loss.

 

[phantom13]

A lot of focus going on King but our two AA players in Sinclair and Wilkie were more disappointing, they played their worst games of the year.

Can't be too critical of them though as without them we wouldn't have even been playing finals.

Good point. Don’t think I’ve ever seen the two of them so fumbly, maybe the occasion got to them?

Shattered.
Knew we'd get done (pessimism always present) but truly didn't expect the GWS domination I witnessed today.
Literally everything went right for them - the way they just walked the ball out of D50, gaining 30m's on EVERY kick in, complete domination with ball in hand today. Shame for a good season to end like that. Where the f*ck are we going to get midfielders to fix this mess?
Side note - a few itk rumour texts going around re: Membrey and it sounds incredibly serious. Crossing my fingers it's just a minor situation.

The 30m from the kick outs was immensely frustrating. It almost seemed a set plan to give them that space, I was sitting on the flank at ground level at the end we kicked to in the first quarter and our zone sagged and actually fell back whenever the kicker played on, we actively gave them that 30m and they took it to clear the ball 90-100m pretty much every time. I can’t say I understand it at all.

 

[PoppedCorn]

Max junior years was all about standing there and being bigger, he never lead because he didn't have to, he stood there and either outreached everyone or got scragged because he was too tall and got the free
This is why he doesn't (or barely) leads and complains when he gets the small holds on him and it doesn't get paid

He needs to change his mindset and he will be even better


This quick kick around the body thing doesn't work either
It has to stop
I love Roma, but, does his grab and boot the ball fwd help us or does It create a 50/50 which we then lose on rebound where our mids are too slow to get back the other way?
Not sure.

But the glaring prob is midfield talent
As soon as crouch didn't get it out today to amyone, not even jack steele

9

Jack Steele

Age

29

Ht

187cm

Wt

90kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

20.9

5star

K

8.7

3star

HB

12.2

5star

M

3.7

4star

T

6.8

5star

CL

3.6

5star

D

21.3

5star

K

10.0

4star

HB

11.3

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

5.8

5star

CL

4.6

5star

D

16.8

4star

K

5.0

2star

HB

11.8

5star

M

2.6

3star

T

6.4

5star

CL

3.6

5star

with 38 touches could help.
Clarke is too slow on the turnaround
Seb busts his ass but has never been quick and cant kick 40m to goal
Windy playing a majority back role, Owens wasted up fwd and pou is 18 years and played all games and would've been tired and in awe today

Gresh had a patch and tried today, I've given him plenty over the year but today he tried, still needs to step up thou on his defensive fwd stuff, but had good tackles today and proved he can do it, although another one with no kick depth
If he stays im ok with it but has to have a massive pre season

How about that Cooper Sharman bloke?
Some of us could see it...natural footballer
He LEADS and can kick, has good hands and tries
Sign him up long term


That's it for now
I need coffee...

 

[Sully111]

I think what you see with Max King

12

Max King

Age

24

Ht

202cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.3

2star

K

4.7

2star

HB

2.6

2star

M

2.7

3star

T

0.7

3star

G

1.4

5star

D

7.3

2star

K

4.7

2star

HB

2.6

2star

M

2.7

3star

T

0.7

1star

G

1.4

5star

D

8.0

2star

K

5.2

2star

HB

2.8

3star

M

2.8

3star

T

0.6

3star

G

1.4

5star

is just who he is

He’s a big lurch type fella

The way he carries himself etc. I think it’s just Max

I’m more interested in our forward line structure and the way we deliver the ball in there.

 

[pebblesofsand]

The 30m from the kick outs was immensely frustrating. It almost seemed a set plan to give them that space, I was sitting on the flank at ground level at the end we kicked to in the first quarter and our zone sagged and actually fell back whenever the kicker played on, we actively gave them that 30m and they took it to clear the ball 90-100m pretty much every time. I can’t say I understand it at all.

I think it was part of the plan to make the extra size of the MCG more managegable.

I think it worked well from kickouts but our i50's were so poor we got killed on the spread out of their defence partly because of the extra ground size.

 

[phantom13]

I think it was part of the plan to make the extra size of the MCG more managegable.

I think it worked well from kickouts but our i50's were so poor we got killed on the spread out of their defence partly because of the extra ground size.

First bit makes sense, I don’t agree that it worked from kickouts, giving them a 80-90m clearance with pace meant they out numbered us at the drop on that ball. I can see the logic I just don’t think we executed it

 

[Saintbloke]

Reflecting on yesterday- I wonder how much Membrey pulling out of the game with personal issues, affected the group- they looked flat to me. I hope all is well with Tim.
I would have liked to have seen more hard gut-running from our smalls and mids early- between Steele, Crouch, Clark, Higgins, Gresh, Wood and Butler, there was scope to generate 4-5 goals more in the game, but too many drifted in and out of the game- Higgins never got going at all. We won't win any finals with the current midfield unit.
A big pre-season will be on the cards, and some serious list reviewing I expect. I would love to see our young players at Sandy, really take the next step in development over summer.

 

[St Kilda Death]

Statistically yesterday the game was fairly even.
Even contested possession.
Fairly even clearance numbers but as anyone could see, the quality of those clearances, gws had clean exits, ours a mess.
Same with the transition from back to forward. Ball was obviously wet, and you could tell when our guys tried to use it.
But you couldn’t tell when Kelly, Whitfield, ash etc we’re using it.

Kingsley comes from the school of RTB and GWS has become a well structured side.
Difference between them and us was the skill to transfer the ball at pace from one end to the other.

Oh and 4 extra players in high vis.

 

[Sully111]

Statistically yesterday the game was fairly even.
Even contested possession.
Fairly even clearance numbers but as anyone could see, the quality of those clearances, gws had clean exits, ours a mess.
Same with the transition from back to forward. Ball was obviously wet, and you could tell when our guys tried to use it.
But you couldn’t tell when Kelly, Whitfield, ash etc we’re using it.

Kingsley comes from the school of RTB and GWS has become a well structured side.
Difference between them and us was the skill to transfer the ball at pace from one end to the other.

Oh and 4 extra players in high vis.

Spot on imo

Webster, Higgins, even Sinclair, Clark missing targets by foot that should be hit.

That's just a few examples off the top of my head.

We have momentum... we give them the ball back.

Yes we need more grunt in the midfield, cough Owens cough, but we're going nowhere until we improve our skills.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Spare me the 'know nothing about football' horseshit.

I've done shoulders. They didn't stop me reaching forward when leading for the ball or making coherent leads that didn't require everyone to read my mind.

While you were waiting for another reco? With an excellent full back jostling and bumping you?
At AFL level in a final?

You must be Superman. Want a contract?

 

[Diehard Saint]

Spot on. He will always be a good full forward, but will he become a great full forward is the question.

It could be a Daniher like career or a Buddy like career. I feel like we've been waiting for that "next step" for a while now. Becoming a consistent AA level player and competing in the Coleman. Of course injuries haven't helped this year.

You mean the Daniher who kicked 5 last night with support from an excellent team?

Waiting for a guy coming off an acl, a shoulder reco and facing another one?

He was up around there last season. With a lot of crappy delivery.

 

[MightySaint]

There is nothing wrong with saying Max has a lot to work on, while also being a good player.
Some of his chase/ pressure efforts were genuinely embarrassing yesterday. Some of his marking yesterday was really poor, especially when he tried to take marks on his chest instead of with outstretched arms which allowed the defender to spoil.
He also had some amazing marks and was double teamed at times and still kicked 3. His kicking for goal has improved significantly.
At present Max is good to very good. I would be disappointed if he doesn't become great.

 

[Sir Owens]

Max is a classic victim of his own high standards. His shoulder is cooked and you would think he didnt touch it yesterday. He was our leading goal kicker and equal game high.

Pou I think has been the golden child all year. He hasnt done much in the second half of the season to be fair. He’s a raw kid and we’re planning for the future. Getting 23 games + a final into him is a massive win. Fast tracking his development.

NAS was skinny and not great in the contest in his first year, let’s see what Pou can do with a big summer.

 

[gringo2011]

he concerns me tho, from his complete lack of run, varying effort levels and the inability to mark with hands outstretched on leads

He was getting in good spots but they were shutting his space down and Taylor was punching everything out that he got his hands to. We sat down at ground level and when he was up our end you could see he's trying, just couldn't find space or time. That is a very good defensive unit. Against a lesser opponent he probably marks another three balls inside 50 and his return probably looks much better. To me the smalls were shown up today. Butler and Higgins don't offer enough offensive threat in Bulter's case and defensive pressure in Higgins' case. Snags is a real almost player.

 

[gringo2011]

What part of this season was a new coach bounce?

We will turn over heaps of this in the next 2 off seasons.

But the nucleus of what comes next is already here.

To be honest we are one more really good draft away from being a very good side

Until we actually go somewhere with it it's the same as every other year in the last 12. Promising but we also look a long way off the best sides. If the list managers make the right moves we have a good base to work off. We have also blown 3 back to back rebuilds so there is that part of me that doesn't trust them to organise a piss-up in a brewery still.

Turning over bulk players isn't a recipe for success, that's another on the fly rebuild. Mostly players take a few years to even become best 22. Moving in more kids with a baseline of youth gives uneven performance. It's a rebuild at that point and you expect to sit outside the 8. The older core will retire or break down and then the youth have to carry the full load. If we don't over achieve we will be in the bottom half of the ladder for a long time.

At least we have drafted well in the last 2 years and we have some good older talent still but they want to start moving and make the right moves or it will be a pretty short lived love affair with Lyon and co.