Autopsy 2nd Elimination Final, 2023: St.Kilda v GWS *WEBSTER 150TH* *BATTLE 100TH*

[gringo2011]

What part of this season was a new coach bounce?

We will turn over heaps of this in the next 2 off seasons.

But the nucleus of what comes next is already here.

To be honest we are one more really good draft away from being a very good side

I didn't answer the new coach bounce, when you get a new coach, players play to impress and go harder, second year in the grind sets in and the players feel more secure and drop off a bit. Hopefully Lyon keeps cracking the whip though. He doesn't like half invested.

 

[gringo2011]

300 people, half AFL employees is traction?
ok

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What ever, I think they are doing well getting people to finals and proper invested in the game. Looks promising to me. The area we were in was mostly Giants and had no atmosphere for us, the Saints fans around us were drowned out. One Saints fan nearly got evicted because he was getting so wound up by them and they were giving him shit all game.

 

[SaintersUnite]

Just saw Matthaes’ mum and sister at the airport lol


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[D2D3]

There is nothing wrong with saying Max has a lot to work on, while also being a good player.
Some of his chase/ pressure efforts were genuinely embarrassing yesterday. Some of his marking yesterday was really poor, especially when he tried to take marks on his chest instead of with outstretched arms which allowed the defender to spoil.
He also had some amazing marks and was double teamed at times and still kicked 3. His kicking for goal has improved significantly.
At present Max is good to very good. I would be disappointed if he doesn't become great.

Something to note about King is that he was getting molested at almost every single contest yesterday too. Opposition players must know their best chance is to get under his skin and stop him jumping at the ball so that means shoving and “wrestling” (holding him would be a free kick so they can’t be doing that right??).

I’d like to see the club kick up more of a fuss about King’s treatment the way we occasionally used to about Rooeys. Neutrals will scoff but who cares.

That said I do agree Maxx needs to get on his bike more and use that mobility and height rather than get bogged down. Harves needs to get him on the track to build up his endurance.

 

[Mowman]

I didn't answer the new coach bounce, when you get a new coach, players play to impress and go harder, second year in the grind sets in and the players feel more secure and drop off a bit. Hopefully Lyon keeps cracking the whip though. He doesn't like half invested.

I’m very confident we are tracking in the right direction and have improved so much this year, we need to improve this much again for next year .
Henry nominating us is a good start shows SOS is of to a good start

 

[stavro#4]

Until we actually go somewhere with it it's the same as every other year in the last 12. Promising but we also look a long way off the best sides. If the list managers make the right moves we have a good base to work off. We have also blown 3 back to back rebuilds so there is that part of me that doesn't trust them to organise a piss-up in a brewery still.

Turning over bulk players isn't a recipe for success, that's another on the fly rebuild. Mostly players take a few years to even become best 22. Moving in more kids with a baseline of youth gives uneven performance. It's a rebuild at that point and you expect to sit outside the 8. The older core will retire or break down and then the youth have to carry the full load. If we don't over achieve we will be in the bottom half of the ladder for a long time.

At least we have drafted well in the last 2 years and we have some good older talent still but they want to start moving and make the right moves or it will be a pretty short lived love affair with Lyon and co.

I didn't answer the new coach bounce, when you get a new coach, players play to impress and go harder, second year in the grind sets in and the players feel more secure and drop off a bit. Hopefully Lyon keeps cracking the whip though. He doesn't like half invested.

There was no new coach bounce as it was a bunch of rejuvenated elder statesmen. It was growth from kids - that was the success of the year.

We came into this year needing to know what our playing list was and quite clearly we have significant talent all in our 24 and unders.

So 5 years from now. They should all be here.

One more quality draft changes everything for us. A few astute trades and I think Henry will be. Not sure on Dow but I mentioned him as someone I’d roll the dice on last year this time and the player of the last 2 months would be handy.

Stop being so negative after a very good season. With plenty of positivity

 

[Mowman]

Something to note about King is that he was getting molested at almost every single contest yesterday too. Opposition players must know their best chance is to get under his skin and stop him jumping at the ball so that means shoving and “wrestling” (holding him would be a free kick so they can’t be doing that right??).

I’d like to see the club kick up more of a fuss about King’s treatment the way we occasionally used to about Rooeys. Neutrals will scoff but who cares.

That said I do agree Maxx needs to get on his bike more and use that mobility and height rather than get bogged down. Harves needs to get him on the track to build up his endurance.

King needs to lead more would help if our midfield improves

 

[Joffaboy]

Every time we lose Max cops it. He almost singlehandedly dragged us back into the game just before half time. He is playing through a serious shoulder injury. He had to deal with a forward leader being withdrawn the day of the game with a serious issue. He got very little from the umpires and basically had a man hanging off him at every contest.

Max is the least of our worries. It is exhausting having to see him cop it after every loss.

No apparently he and Pou should be traded, Marshall is crap, Higgins is the worst small in the league, and Ross can't coach because Owens was only in the mids late.
Some childishly embarrassing melts from supposed adults on this thread.

We were soundly beaten yesterday, a right thumping, but some tough lessons were learned.
Remember Hardwick talking about putting on your big boy pants in finals. Well for a long time we were in short pants. GWS were harder at the pill, stronger in pressure on the man, faster on the turnover and generally more skilled under pressure.
They are a well coached, finals experienced and hardened team, chock full of AFL gifted top 10 players. They were just too good.
Coming to terms with that, will allow to see how ridiculous the assasine knee jerk tantrums are.

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[#1_pigeonracer]

Cheers to the group of Melbourne supporters that attended yesterday and sat behind me in hi viz wear to support their beloved Giants. Must be so special regaling that to their kids this morning. ️

 

[Joffaboy]

What ever, I think they are doing well getting people to finals and proper invested in the game. Looks promising to me. The area we were in was mostly Giants and had no atmosphere for us, the Saints fans around us were drowned out. One Saints fan nearly got evicted because he was getting so wound up by them and they were giving him s**t all game.

Wow what a powerhouse. No atmosphere from 66k Saints fans compared to 300 paid actors.
And they upset a Saints fan, ooh the new Collingwood.
Do you ever see their home crowds? Worse than a VFL game.
I come from Western Sydney and can tell you it will NEVER take off. NEVER.

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[D2D3]

What ever, I think they are doing well getting people to finals and proper invested in the game. Looks promising to me. The area we were in was mostly Giants and had no atmosphere for us, the Saints fans around us were drowned out. One Saints fan nearly got evicted because he was getting so wound up by them and they were giving him s**t all game.

I mean last time I sat near the giants cheer squad half their cheer leaders were in Adelaide jumpers so it’s an improvement on that at least. Now there was only two swans and definitely some people who at least weren’t direct family members of the players (I’m being a bit facetious I get what you mean)

 

[gringo2011]

At the ground it seemed to me that Briggs was all over Marshall. Obviously Marshall got plenty of it and helped out massively with clearances but Briggs’ physicality was a problem for Marshall. I rate Briggs.

It's a conundrum, Marshall couldn't have done any more but big rucks get on top of him and Briggs had a perfect combination of size and skills. With a gun inside mid brigade he'd not have to do as much heavy lifting so would be a weapon. Do we bring in a specialist ruck for some games? Moyle from GC is probably the best young ruck outside regular AFL games. Jordan Sweet I watched before yesterday's match in the VFL and he looks a really good player and unlucky to not be a regular best 22 AFL player. Tom Downie the old Giants ruck is 30 but probably the best unlisted ruck in the VFL.

 

[gringo2011]

Max isn't an endurance athlete like Nick was he's a different type of player. More explosive but he can't run 16km a game like Nick did

He will never be like Nick but he could be just as good in a different way.

His leading has been better this year, give him time he's going to be an amazing player.

Your guy would be better, turn him in to a big pointy elbowed aggressive powerhouse straight line lead runner. Make them clear a path for him.

 

[#gosaintas]

What ever, I think they are doing well getting people to finals and proper invested in the game. Looks promising to me. The area we were in was mostly Giants and had no atmosphere for us, the Saints fans around us were drowned out. One Saints fan nearly got evicted because he was getting so wound up by them and they were giving him s**t all game.

there were 2 giants in our area of 5000 Saints

 

[Cairnsman]

how good would a May or a Moore be though! what a luxury to have a back who can stop the ball!


was awesome to see so many Sainters there today young and old
Marshall best on for us
has anyone checked on Cairnsman re:Cooper, best game yet

got smacked pretty well all day
plenty to like from the year but also plenty to still be concerned about

well off the pace, fell into the final 8 because other teams around us on ladder had an average season.

The quality of player and skill between us and the top 7 is stark

hopefully the club doesn't rate this list on the basis they made the finals and only need a few tweaks, pretty sure they wont.

as I've been saying all season, will take Lyon a few years to build the team.

will probably mean we don't play finals again for a couple of years as more "exploration" is needed.

 

[gringo2011]

Wish people would accept what Marshall is.

He's not a dominant center square or tap ruck but he absolutely kills it around the ground and in the last 2 games he's had 18 clearances on his own and about 50 possesions.

Awesome player

Outstanding effort. but are you better served with getting it to inside mids who can share the load? To me 90% are blind bombs forward. The difference with GWS was that when they get the ball outside and moving in space they look unstoppable. We bomb forward and have to fight it out at another contest. Clean ball use isn't everything, the Tigers won three flags with momentum footy but we need to define how we want to play and who to use to do it. If you blind bomb you need 100% commitment to the chaos ball game.

We looked like we need extractors and clean users to match them.

 

[Cairnsman]

Something which should surprise nobody as we have discussed it constantly all year.
It won’t be a quick fix unfortunately, but here’s hoping the list management team can earn their pay packet now.
Henry is a good start.

we are well short of the talent required to compete with the big boys, falling into the finals because other teams around us were poor hopefully doesn't paper over list deficiencies, pretty certain Lyon doesn't overrate this list but I suspect we will not be as high on the ladder over the next few years while we rebuild. Comes back to the question of can our club build a list capable of being a sustained top 4 team.

 

[gringo2011]

there were 2 giants in our area of 5000 Saints

We were near their cheer squad so they'd obviously bunched them, but outside their cheer squad it was very well stocked with Giants fans too. They aren't like bullshit fans either, they knew what they were watching. Back in the 90s. Swans fans didn't know the rules and would call "ball" when players marked and had to ask each other the rules. I reckon they are a lot better supported than I thought. Maybe they are families and friends of ex and current players but there are plenty of them.

 

[Mowman]

well off the pace, fell into the final 8 because other teams around us on ladder had an average season.

The quality of player and skill between us and the top 7 is stark

hopefully the club doesn't rate this list on the basis they made the finals and only need a few tweaks, pretty sure they wont.

as I've been saying all season, will take Lyon a few years to build the team.

will probably mean we don't play finals again for a couple of years as more "exploration" is needed.

We fell into the 8 ?
We were never outside the 8 for the whole year

 

[gringo2011]

Hmmm

Shockingly umpired game. The boundary umpire near us got two calls wrong where the ball was clearly OOB and he let it play on that resulted in goals to GWS. The others also stuffed up a few intentional out of bounds too. He turned around and laughed at the Saints fans a few times too who were letting him know he was shit at his job.

 

[MightySaint]

We were near their cheer squad so they'd obviously bunched them, but outside their cheer squad it was very well stocked with Giants fans too. They aren't like bullshit fans either, they knew what they were watching. Back in the 90s. Swans fans didn't know the rules and would call "ball" when players marked and had to ask each other the rules. I reckon they are a lot better supported than I thought. Maybe they are families and friends of ex and current players but there are plenty of them.

I was Level 3 and there were a few around. I hope they go well, they seem to really try to create a quality club. They'll never have the history but I think it's a worthwhile investment by the AFL for the long term

 

[gringo2011]

Something to note about King is that he was getting molested at almost every single contest yesterday too. Opposition players must know their best chance is to get under his skin and stop him jumping at the ball so that means shoving and “wrestling” (holding him would be a free kick so they can’t be doing that right??).

I’d like to see the club kick up more of a fuss about King’s treatment the way we occasionally used to about Rooeys. Neutrals will scoff but who cares.

That said I do agree Maxx needs to get on his bike more and use that mobility and height rather than get bogged down. Harves needs to get him on the track to build up his endurance.

Yeah, Taylor was holding him by the arm so hard that he spun him as he ran to meet the ball and the umpire just watched it happen. Then gives absolutely piss weak ones later to others. The three umpire experiment is a massive fail. They have to go back to 2 next year. It's a mess.

 

[beside the seaside]

well off the pace, fell into the final 8 because other teams around us on ladder had an average season.

The quality of player and skill between us and the top 7 is stark

hopefully the club doesn't rate this list on the basis they made the finals and only need a few tweaks, pretty sure they wont.

as I've been saying all season, will take Lyon a few years to build the team.

will probably mean we don't play finals again for a couple of years as more "exploration" is needed.

Sorry but that is utter bullshit. We were well in that game and if we'd played at our best we would have won. That is with dealing with adversity that I doubt any club has ever dealt with on the morning of a final.

There are clear holes and issues the midfield being the main one but considering what we've dealt with this year we are not far off and moreover we are very young so should improve.

 

[Yawkey way]

No apparently he and Pou should be traded, Marshall is crap, Higgins is the worst small in the league, and Ross can't coach because Owens was only in the mids late.
Some childishly embarrassing melts from supposed adults on this thread.

We were soundly beaten yesterday, a right thumping, but some tough lessons were learned.
Remember Hardwick talking about putting on your big boy pants in finals. Well for a long time we were in short pants. GWS were harder at the pill, stronger in pressure on the man, faster on the turnover and generally more skilled under pressure.
They are a well coached, finals experienced and hardened team, chock full of AFL gifted top 10 players. They were just too good.
Coming to terms with that, will allow to see how ridiculous the assasine knee jerk tantrums are.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

They were too good and we were soundly beaten and yet we managed to keep coming and lost by 24 points. Of course I’m disappointed but I’m certainly not surprised as imo we’ve overachieved this season. We have plenty to work with and plenty to work on, henry nominating us is a start and I’m backing the coaching and recruiting team in to do what needs to be done. Absolutely no reason for melts imo, i didn’t see anyone not trying although I saw a few outclassed.

 

[mighty_sainters]

For an eternal pessimist, I’m surprisingly excited for the future.

We just didn’t play the conditions as well as GWS. Their run off half back, which was a strength of ours all year mind you was the difference.

Enough to work with in all aspects of the field.

I’ll be giving Howard another chance next year, not just off one performance from Cordy but we won’t get any value come trade time. Gives Adams and Van Es another season to develop.