Player Watch #38 Noah Cumberland - Delisted

[Morro]

Clark, Cumberland and Banks should have played ahead of Green, Campbell and Pickett the other night. Think we would have done better

Banks injured, clark coming back from injury so thats a no from me.

 

[Grrr]

Noah can have a massive impact on our season, if he does the simple things consistently. If he does that he'll get his opportunity at the senior level and once there and he is playing the same way week after week, his talent will see him cash in, which is what happened in his first year. Played basic footy without trying to be a match winner and found himself cashing in and having a lot of us expecting him to become a quality player. Then for some reason he started trying to do too much and the harder he tried the worse things went. So hopefully he goes back to basics and gets some consistency in his game.

It's called maturity, some players have it from day one, some players learn it as they go. But Cumberland has real x factor, so it might take a bit longer. His second half vs second was a great improvement.

Also, beside maybe Stack, but for different reasons, I don't think I have seen a young player so dissected so thoroughly as Cumberland. We watch his every move. Jack Riewoldt was similarly dissected in his young days as well up to a point, both criticised for being erratic, sometimes selfish etc. Point is you have to back these talented players and you get the rewards.

 

[tora tora tora]

Agree and disagree with this.

Agree that Noah plays a different style of game, but I think with good coaching he can still be a valuable player for us. Again the issue is him keeping it simple

Good coaching by Stevie Morris had Bauer shift out of the fwd line to good effect. MRJ has been running round the middle in the AFL & the half of the VFL game I saw. He wasn't bad.

Noah played up the ground last year too I think.

Permanent Small fwd role killed Georges career, D Rioli moved out too.

 

[Muddiemoose]

It's called maturity, some players have it from day one, some players learn it as they go. But Cumberland has real x factor, so it might take a bit longer. His second half vs second was a great improvement.

Also, beside maybe Stack, but for different reasons, I don't think I have seen a young player so dissected so thoroughly as Cumberland. We watch his every move. Jack Riewoldt was similarly dissected in his young days as well up to a point, both criticised for being erratic, sometimes selfish etc. Point is you have to back these talented players and you get the rewards.

Agree to a point
But he also isn’t really that young anymore almost 23 years old and 4th year on our list

If he still struggles to adapt to gameplans and roles as a player even under a new coach he will never make it at the top level

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

IMO, consistency of performance is the cornerstone of Yzes selection mantra.

Well as long as Noah is consistently kicking goals...Ooze is going to have a very big selection Mantra!

 

[Grrr]

Agree to a point
But he also isn’t really that young anymore almost 23 years old and 4th year on our list

If he still struggles to adapt to gameplans and roles as a player even under a new coach he will never make it at the top level

De Goey has been doing it for years and only the last year or so where you know what you get each week. Not sure how much game plans and individual ability compliment each other, they sure didn't under Hardwick in the last few years, in fact Hardwick forgot that he threw his game plan out after 2016 and look what happened. What was Collingwood's game plan last year, get it down the forward line and see what happens as fast as possible.

The game plan wasn't working at half time in the VFL on Tuesday, until Cumberland turned the game on it's head. I think these game plans are a bit overplayed in importance.

 

[Muddiemoose]

De Goey has been doing it for years and only the last year or so where you know what you get each week. Not sure how much game plans and individual ability compliment each other, they sure didn't under Hardwick in the last few years, in fact Hardwick forgot that he threw his game plan out after 2016 and look what happened. What was Collingwood's game plan last year, get it down the forward line and see what happens as fast as possible.

The game plan wasn't working at half time in the VFL on Tuesday, until Cumberland turned the game on it's head. I think these game plans are a bit overplayed in importance.

Yeah but as Dimma alluded to last year we already have two blokes playing the un accountable Degoey role and they are better players than Cumbo (Dusty and Bolton)

Having 3 guys not putting heat on just means the oppo teams can walk out of D50 and have over lap runners to easily push past our midfield, if anything we also need more out of Dusty and Bolton in that department as well

It’s exactly what people are actually complaining about when they say our midfield looks slow
It’s not that they are slow it’s that they are out numbered by players not contributing to team defence further up the ground

 

[_RT_]

It's called maturity, some players have it from day one, some players learn it as they go. But Cumberland has real x factor, so it might take a bit longer. His second half vs second was a great improvement.

Also, beside maybe Stack, but for different reasons, I don't think I have seen a young player so dissected so thoroughly as Cumberland. We watch his every move. Jack Riewoldt was similarly dissected in his young days as well up to a point, both criticised for being erratic, sometimes selfish etc. Point is you have to back these talented players and you get the rewards.

Agree with backing them in, but you don't do it regardless. It took Jack a number of years to become much more team orientated and once he did the team as a whole flourished. Noah is in a similar boat IMO. He can continue trying to be a game breaker and find himself going back and forth between the VFL & AFL or he can knuckle down, become more team orientated and doing the simple things and have himself a decent career. That is where as you say maturity comes into it and that is why I said hopefully the coaches sit down with Noah and show him the contrast between the first & second halves from Tuesday and how much greater his impact was when he focused on team first footy, rather than trying to win the game off his own boot.

 

[Vassp]

Yeah but as Dimma alluded to last year we already have two blokes playing the un accountable Degoey role and they are better players than Cumbo (Dusty and Bolton)

Having 3 guys not putting heat on just means the oppo teams can walk out of D50 and have over lap runners to easily push past our midfield, if anything we also need more out of Dusty and Bolton in that department as well

It’s exactly what people are actually complaining about when they say our midfield looks slow
It’s not that they are slow it’s that they are out numbered by players not contributing to team defence further up the ground

Cumbo is an all out goal sneak who also chases, Bolton is similar. Dusty doesn't chase the way those two do. They can all easily be rotated in and out of the forward line.

 

[Muddiemoose]

Cumbo is an all out goal sneak who also chases, Bolton is similar. Dusty doesn't chase the way those two do. They can all easily be rotated in and out of the forward line.

In a perfect world I agree and if we had some established role players like we did with Castagna, Lambert and Edwards picking up the slack it wouldn’t be an issue
When talking about defensive forwards it’s not just about tackles and pressure acts it’s blocking movement corridors or just staying on a player so they can’t work off to become a uncontested easy handball option on the rebound

But our forward line is lacking defensively and it’s costing us already By adding another player to the mix who is un accountable won’t actually achieve anything or improving where teams are actively exploiting us

Maybe one or two extra goals a game for us but if teams are scoring 5 or 6 goals a game due to quick movement out of our forward 50 we aren’t gaining anything

 

[Sol23]

He actually reminds me of Dan Connors and has some tricks like he did aswel. Just need to play him.
Steely should be playing round 1 aswel

 

[richoplzbreed]

Yeah but as Dimma alluded to last year we already have two blokes playing the un accountable Degoey role and they are better players than Cumbo (Dusty and Bolton)

Having 3 guys not putting heat on just means the oppo teams can walk out of D50 and have over lap runners to easily push past our midfield, if anything we also need more out of Dusty and Bolton in that department as well

It’s exactly what people are actually complaining about when they say our midfield looks slow
It’s not that they are slow it’s that they are out numbered by players not contributing to team defence further up the ground

That was last year. Dusty's already been told he's primarily a mid now. A fully fit Mansell knows his AFL career relies on him to do grunt work. MRJ, Cumbo and Clarke will be competing for spots and know they can't coast so whoever gets caught out will be dropped immediately.

The thing that Cumbo has over all his competition is that he's shown he can kick bags of goals: 5 (once against a gun Brisbane defense) 3 ( 3 times) 2 (3 times) 7 multiple goal games out of his first 18 is phenomenal considering his debut he never left the bench. He's been starting sub, subbed out or injured about 5-6 games. MRJ kicked his first goal in a year in Dee's practice match and was a charity from Shai. I don't know anyone who has faith MRJ can actually create a goal of his own. At least Judson can bob up and do that.

 

[Muddiemoose]

That was last year. Dusty's already been told he's primarily a mid now. A fully fit Mansell knows his AFL career relies on him to do grunt work. MRJ, Cumbo and Clarke will be competing for spots and know they can't coast so whoever gets caught out will be dropped immediately.

The thing that Cumbo has over all his competition is that he's shown he can kick bags of goals: 5 (once against a gun Brisbane defense) 3 ( 3 times) 2 (3 times) 7 multiple goal games out of his first 18 is phenomenal considering his debut he never left the bench. He's been starting sub, subbed out or injured about 5-6 games. MRJ kicked his first goal in a year in Dee's practice match and was a charity from Shai. I don't know anyone who has faith MRJ can actually create a goal of his own. At least Judson can bob up and do that.

Yeah agree with all that as well

Personally once Lynch is back I would just play Lynch and Balta as the two keys but hold one of them higher up the ground to keep some of the leading lanes free for our forwards and try and avoid that congestion that seems to be strangling our forward line over the past few seasons

Use Balta as ruck support at maybe 60% game time so he can make big impact whenever he is on field

Play Cumbo as essentially a 2nd tall (marking target) instead of the pressure forward role that he is obviously struggling with

Dusty on ball/ high half forward

Bolton mid/fwd

Whoever is in form out of the other smalls to play ideally Mansell as the best option imo

Same page as you on MRJ, don’t think he makes it
No point having a footy player who can’t kick, mark or handball

 

[_RT_]

That was last year. Dusty's already been told he's primarily a mid now. A fully fit Mansell knows his AFL career relies on him to do grunt work. MRJ, Cumbo and Clarke will be competing for spots and know they can't coast so whoever gets caught out will be dropped immediately.

The thing that Cumbo has over all his competition is that he's shown he can kick bags of goals: 5 (once against a gun Brisbane defense) 3 ( 3 times) 2 (3 times) 7 multiple goal games out of his first 18 is phenomenal considering his debut he never left the bench. He's been starting sub, subbed out or injured about 5-6 games. MRJ kicked his first goal in a year in Dee's practice match and was a charity from Shai. I don't know anyone who has faith MRJ can actually create a goal of his own. At least Judson can bob up and do that.

Go back and look at those games where Cumberland kicked multiple goals and I believe that you'd find that the reason he did that was because he was doing the simple things well, which then led to the rewards of hitting the scoreboard.

I'm not saying there is no room in the game for Noah to do the special things he is capable of doing, what I'm saying is that if he is doing the simple things to the level required, the opportunity to do those special things will present themselves. It's what happens with the likes of Bolton & Martin, they do the simple things consistently and then when the opportunity presents they can do the special things like a freakish goal from the boundary or burst through a pack or in Boltons case sit on an opponents head.

Someone even mentioned De Goey above and he was in that same boat, early on he was a hit and miss type who could turn a game in a quarter or be nowhere to be seen, which led to many labeling him KMart Dusty. Now he has become a genuine star of the competition because he does the simple things well and it then puts him in position to then take over games when he needs to.

In his 4th year on the list(3rd year playing after the ACL) the ball is firmly in Noahs court as to whether he wants to become a long term AFL player or someone who cruises through at state league level.

 

[Grrr]

Yeah but as Dimma alluded to last year we already have two blokes playing the un accountable Degoey role and they are better players than Cumbo (Dusty and Bolton)

Having 3 guys not putting heat on just means the oppo teams can walk out of D50 and have over lap runners to easily push past our midfield, if anything we also need more out of Dusty and Bolton in that department as well

It’s exactly what people are actually complaining about when they say our midfield looks slow
It’s not that they are slow it’s that they are out numbered by players not contributing to team defence further up the ground

Dimma (and Mini) played Pickett forward for a whole season and nothing came of it full stop. Mansell wasn't much better, 10 goals in 16 matches and went at 2.5 tackles a game, less than Cumberland who played far less game time. Dimma was obsessed with a defensive forward line. Graham was ineffective as a defensive forward. Jack, Miller, Ryan, whoever you want to nominate were pretty average to very average up forward. Our forward half was a mess but for Bolton and Dusty who at least put scoreboard pressure on and made defenders accountable.

The ball waltzed out of our forward line because nobody could take a mark, complete for a mark, or naturally shark a ball at ground level. MRJ busted his guts chasing players, Mansell to a lesser extent, but nobody could kick the goals that put pressure back on the opposition,

Cumberland did not live up to his '22 form, but to blame the ball rebounding out of play on Cumberland was nonsense I thought at the time. Cumberland was our best forward rd.21 and still dropped. Kicked 6 in the VFL and not promoted. Credit to Cumberland took it on the chin and has had a good summer reportedly. He is a very aggressive player at the ball, the man and at the goals, something we need badly.

A forward half of:
FF: Greene/or similar - Lynch - Cumberland
HF: Bolton - Balta - Baker/resting Martin/Taranto/Ross

is a potent one, and one that would win you games.

 

[Grrr]

Yeah agree with all that as well

Personally once Lynch is back I would just play Lynch and Balta as the two keys but hold one of them higher up the ground to keep some of the leading lanes free for our forwards and try and avoid that congestion that seems to be strangling our forward line over the past few seasons

Use Balta as ruck support at maybe 60% game time so he can make big impact whenever he is on field

Play Cumbo as essentially a 2nd tall (marking target) instead of the pressure forward role that he is obviously struggling with

Dusty on ball/ high half forward

Bolton mid/fwd

Whoever is in form out of the other smalls to play ideally Mansell as the best option imo

Same page as you on MRJ, don’t think he makes it
No point having a footy player who can’t kick, mark or handball

Agree with this but for Mansell. One of Greene, Campbell, Baker, Sonsie, maybe Couthard, natural forwards. Mansell could play higher like Graham or even the wing, but he is not best 22 in my eyes, although not far out. No other side in the league plays defensive forwards who don't have natural forward craft.

 

[tunksy]

that’s right.. he ain’t a small forward and he ain’t a key forward..
He’s a hybrid, and a damn powerful and talented one.

That’s why I’ve been pumping up his tires for years cos he’s such a weapon that is an oppositions nightmare match up

I’m with you.

Wish we had the balls to just play him for 22 games and tell him he’s there to kick goals.

 

[Vassp]

In a perfect world I agree and if we had some established role players like we did with Castagna, Lambert and Edwards picking up the slack it wouldn’t be an issue
When talking about defensive forwards it’s not just about tackles and pressure acts it’s blocking movement corridors or just staying on a player so they can’t work off to become a uncontested easy handball option on the rebound

But our forward line is lacking defensively and it’s costing us already By adding another player to the mix who is un accountable won’t actually achieve anything or improving where teams are actively exploiting us

Maybe one or two extra goals a game for us but if teams are scoring 5 or 6 goals a game due to quick movement out of our forward 50 we aren’t gaining anything

It's always a balance, that's the way I see it.
Might lose something in one area and gain in another. it's hard to say.
Catagna is lucky he was part of a well-oiled machine.

 

[Muddiemoose]

Agree with this but for Mansell. One of Greene, Campbell, Baker, Sonsie, maybe Couthard, natural forwards. Mansell could play higher like Graham or even the wing, but he is not best 22 in my eyes, although not far out. No other side in the league plays defensive forwards who don't have natural forward craft.

Fair enough, but disagree re Mansell and forwards without forward craft, McCreenry from the pies just won a flag who are almost identical in skill level and role

Most teams have them they just go under the radar

 

[THE_GUN]

So he had a great Half game in the VFL

 

[Muddiemoose]

It's always a balance, that's the way I see it.
Might lose something in one area and gain in another. it's hard to say.
Catagna is lucky he was part of a well-oiled machine.

Think it’s a bit of Chicken or Egg with Castagna

Was probably lucky with timing but also think he was a essential part of that machine as well
Our forward line was the worst it’s been in a long time last year and although lynch missing played a big part of it we really missed Castagna as well imo
Teams just rebounded so easily and took easy intercept marks

For every fault Castagna had he was a very good mark for his size and always kept his man accountable

 

[Karp3_dm]

Can Yze just name the 23 with Cumbo in it already….

Then we can all chill out
Namaste

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

De Goey has been doing it for years and only the last year or so where you know what you get each week. Not sure how much game plans and individual ability compliment each other, they sure didn't under Hardwick in the last few years, in fact Hardwick forgot that he threw his game plan out after 2016 and look what happened. What was Collingwood's game plan last year, get it down the forward line and see what happens as fast as possible.

The game plan wasn't working at half time in the VFL on Tuesday, until Cumberland turned the game on it's head. I think these game plans are a bit overplayed in importance.

In my coaching book...game plans are important...as a team guide for 23 players...
But gee I reckon there are times in the game of footy...instinct and creativity come to the fore...
It's one of the reasons we all played footy...
Sometimes in tightly contested game...you need a game breaker...the tin arse...the lairiser...the one wooder...the freak to do the amazing...and crack the game on its head! The Player carried for several games who bursts forth and doesn't take a backward step in kicking winning goals...
It just takes a good coach to recognise that and successfully utilize it...

 

[richoplzbreed]

Dimma (and Mini) played Pickett forward for a whole season and nothing came of it full stop. Mansell wasn't much better, 10 goals in 16 matches and went at 2.5 tackles a game, less than Cumberland who played far less game time. Dimma was obsessed with a defensive forward line. Graham was ineffective as a defensive forward. Jack, Miller, Ryan, whoever you want to nominate were pretty average to very average up forward. Our forward half was a mess but for Bolton and Dusty who at least put scoreboard pressure on and made defenders accountable.

The ball waltzed out of our forward line because nobody could take a mark, complete for a mark, or naturally shark a ball at ground level. MRJ busted his guts chasing players, Mansell to a lesser extent, but nobody could kick the goals that put pressure back on the opposition,

Cumberland did not live up to his '22 form, but to blame the ball rebounding out of play on Cumberland was nonsense I thought at the time. Cumberland was our best forward rd.21 and still dropped. Kicked 6 in the VFL and not promoted. Credit to Cumberland took it on the chin and has had a good summer reportedly. He is a very aggressive player at the ball, the man and at the goals, something we need badly.

A forward half of:
FF: Greene/or similar - Lynch - Cumberland
HF: Bolton - Balta - Baker/resting Martin/Taranto/Ross

is a potent one, and one that would win you games.

I personally think Mansell is garbage. Having said that he's in my starting line-up because sadly he's better than the other options and at least has a crack. MRJ was the worst footballer across the entire comp last year. My night shift job allows me to rewatch games with lots of pausing and rewinding. He doesn't bust his guts chasing, he's like Chol does one flashy thing then goes sight unseen until his next stuff up. Next time MRJ does a sexy tackle rewatch it.

Majority of the time it's a bloke (direct opponent) who's had leather poisoning with 25 disposals and 600m gained. They'll be picking up the ball going from stationary to taking a few steps gaining speed and lightning flash MRJ nails them dead to rights but he was already running full pelt.

He'll then generally turn it over by missing an opponent altogether or putting it on their toes. Besides once the gloss of the sexy tackle has gone and the games over line them up stats wise. He was hardly busting his gut when they had 20+ effective disposals to his 2!!!! Without Cotchin, Pickett and Graham wasting spots in F50 any of Steely, Campbell, Coulthard, Judson or Mansell..... maybe even MRJ can stake their claim. May the cream rise to the top.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

So he had a great Half game in the VFL

Yes...but what a great half of footy! Just needed his team mates to join in as well!