Player Watch #38 Noah Cumberland - Delisted

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Fritsch has won Melbourne's goal kicking 4 times and won any number of games off his own boot because he has that forwards knack of kickiing goals at the right time, but he's not good because he doesn't pressure. Toby Greene's 14.8 is not much different to 11.6, and given one is a veteran and the other had played 8 games before the season started I would say it's not too bad. And Greene is the best in the business. Give me forward that kicks goals over one who pressures any day, but yes we want Cumberland to improve on all aspects of his game, but that will come with confidence and continuity which hopefully comes this year.

I think this bolded part is worth commenting on.

In modern footy, if no forwards applied pressure, would it be fair to say no forwards would be kicking goals to any great extent?

Melbourne's forward line is set up a certain way that worked fairly well when their midfield was totally dominant, but has produced 9,10,11,11 goals in the club's last 4 finals. Fritsch got 9 goals 6 behinds and 1 goal assist in those 4 games, which looks healthy enough without being dominant. But you can see what his role is by looking at his score involvements. Outside his own scores and his 1 goal assist, he had 4 score involvements in 4 games. He wins about 4 contested possessions per game. The vast majority of his role is to receive the ball uncontested from team-mates and score goals. A lot of footballers can do that and Cumberland is one of them. But Richmond have several players better at it than Cumberland, and some of them don't need to major in uncontested ball to get a decent amount of goals, and they are better in terms of retention and pressure. It is worth noting also, in 2023, Cumberland scored 8 goals in 9 games. And had 3 goal assists. Whereas at his 2022 level of goals and assists and score involvements his playing style is possibly able to be accommodated, at his 2023 level of scoring impact he is utterly useless and you would be orders of magnitude better off to play a pressure forward in his place.
 

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We NEED goalkickers. We watched last year where the forward line was filled to the brim of blokes who couldn't kick goals. It was painful watching Graham, Miller, MRJ, Ryan, Coulthard, Pickett, Cotchin etc down there for huge chunks without being genuine threats. One thing Cumbo has proven is that he's a confidence player so the club needs to back him in and ride the good with the bad.

Even after last year he still averages 1.5 goals a game and factoring his debut he never got on the ground, he's been starting sub, subbed out or injured hes actually averaging closer to 2 goals a game. Medium forwards like Fritch, Stevie J and prime Caddy are a nightmare match up. Cumbo lit it up against a red hot Melbourne last year kicking 3 in a quarter. The rest of game he was double and triple teamed freeing up Cotchin, MRJ, Clarke, Mansell so many times yet none capitalised being unopposed in the F50.

Rather than celebrate Cumbo's herculean effort the coach and plenty on big footy laid the boots into the poor kid in just his 13th game against arguably the best defence in the comp. Cumbo and Balta need to be backed in and take the good with the bad. I'm sick of seeing some players get whacked over pathetic reasons. Whilst some darlings get endless excuses made for them.

After round 1 where he kicked 2 goals MRJ went 13 straight games (seniors + ressies) without kicking a goal missing from every range and angle usually failing to even score a point. Despite the brothers in Pickett, Bolton and Daniel often trying to gift him goals to clearly bring him into the games. Our fwd line was exposed last night. Last year there were so many games where the likes of Short, Prestia, Taranto etc dined out and made our scoreline look flattering.

We need genuine full-time forwards who can keep the scoreboard ticking and that's what Cumbo offers in spades. We can't keep HOPING the Graham's, Bakers, Sonsies will pitch in because they might Bob up once a month but against quality defenders they get nullified to easy.
 
We NEED goalkickers. We watched last year where the forward line was filled to the brim of blokes who couldn't kick goals. It was painful watching Graham, Miller, MRJ, Ryan, Coulthard, Pickett, Cotchin etc down there for huge chunks without being genuine threats. One thing Cumbo has proven is that he's a confidence player so the club needs to back him in and ride the good with the bad.

Even after last year he still averages 1.5 goals a game and factoring his debut he never got on the ground, he's been starting sub, subbed out or injured hes actually averaging closer to 2 goals a game. Medium forwards like Fritch, Stevie J and prime Caddy are a nightmare match up. Cumbo lit it up against a red hot Melbourne last year kicking 3 in a quarter. The rest of game he was double and triple teamed freeing up Cotchin, MRJ, Clarke, Mansell so many times yet none capitalised being unopposed in the F50.

Rather than celebrate Cumbo's herculean effort the coach and plenty on big footy laid the boots into the poor kid in just his 13th game against arguably the best defence in the comp. Cumbo and Balta need to be backed in and take the good with the bad. I'm sick of seeing some players get whacked over pathetic reasons. Whilst some darlings get endless excuses made for them.

After round 1 where he kicked 2 goals MRJ went 13 straight games (seniors + ressies) without kicking a goal missing from every range and angle usually failing to even score a point. Despite the brothers in Pickett, Bolton and Daniel often trying to gift him goals to clearly bring him into the games. Our fwd line was exposed last night. Last year there were so many games where the likes of Short, Prestia, Taranto etc dined out and made our scoreline look flattering.

We need genuine full-time forwards who can keep the scoreboard ticking and that's what Cumbo offers in spades. We can't keep HOPING the Graham's, Bakers, Sonsies will pitch in because they might Bob up once a month but against quality defenders they get nullified to easy.
100% this
Just play the kid and give him the confidence to play naturally
 
I’ll take the good with the bad when he plays.

he proved back in the later part of 22, when our team was on a roll that he can be a match winner.

My read on it, is that we’ve got Dusty and Shai strutting around in the f50, applying not a lot of defensive pressure, can we have Noah doing the same?

I think we can, and I’d look at expanding his role. Use him in bursts further up the field as well as in the f50.

Our team looks slow against the really quick teams in the comp. If we can inject leg speed further up the ground, you take some pressure of Short and Rioli and get the ball inside our 50 a lot quicker.
 
My read on it, is that we’ve got Dusty and Shai strutting around in the f50, applying not a lot of defensive pressure, can we have Noah doing the same?
This is the issue. All three are what Dimma used to call "unstructured" players, which makes it difficult to fit them all in.

Cumberland struggles to have any impact on a game unless he's hitting the scoreboard. This happens even at VFL level, where he is wildly inconsistent from quarter to quarter.
 
This is the issue. All three are what Dimma used to call "unstructured" players, which makes it difficult to fit them all in.

Cumberland struggles to have any impact on a game unless he's hitting the scoreboard. This happens even at VFL level, where he is wildly inconsistent from quarter to quarter.
I really would like to see him used in multiple roles
His junior highlights package shows a lot of run/ carry from hb wing.

I reckon small forward would be the most difficult role in modern day football, sometimes it doesn’t hurt to get players up the ground a bit and give them the opportunity to get some easy possessions.
 

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This is the issue. All three are what Dimma used to call "unstructured" players, which makes it difficult to fit them all in.

Cumberland struggles to have any impact on a game unless he's hitting the scoreboard. This happens even at VFL level, where he is wildly inconsistent from quarter to quarter.
How's that any different to watching Kosi have no impact at all? I'd rather watch someone who could rip a game open in 10 mins than someone who is no chance.
 
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How's that any different to watching Kosi have no impact at all?

Because of the role attached to either player.

Kosi is seen as a KPF, a position and role where the minimum expectation is competing (which Kosi did, albeit inconsistently) and any pressure and chasing is a bonus.

The way I see it, Cumbo has always been played in the small fwd role/position, so the minimum expectation is set at a higher bar than Kosi as a KPF.

I've said this in the past, but if you viewed and played Cumbo as the 3rd marking "tall" rather than a crumbing, small fwd, you probably see his game and stats differently.

The player I compare him to is Linc McCarthy at the Lions. You look at his height, and would assume that he's a small forward like Charlie Cameron, but watching Linc McCarthy play, he's clearly more of an aerial player than that zippy small forward, whilst getting the occasional crumbing goal.
 
Because of the role attached to either player.

Kosi is seen as a KPF, a position and role where the minimum expectation is competing (which Kosi did, albeit inconsistently) and any pressure and chasing is a bonus.

The way I see it, Cumbo has always been played in the small fwd role/position, so the minimum expectation is set at a higher bar than Kosi as a KPF.

I've said this in the past, but if you viewed and played Cumbo as the 3rd marking "tall" rather than a crumbing, small fwd, you probably see his game and stats differently.

The player I compare him to is Linc McCarthy at the Lions. You look at his height, and would assume that he's a small forward like Charlie Cameron, but watching Linc McCarthy play, he's clearly more of an aerial player than that zippy small forward, whilst getting the occasional crumbing goal.
Jamie Eilliot is another one with a similar game style
 
Because of the role attached to either player.

Kosi is seen as a KPF, a position and role where the minimum expectation is competing (which Kosi did, albeit inconsistently) and any pressure and chasing is a bonus.

The way I see it, Cumbo has always been played in the small fwd role/position, so the minimum expectation is set at a higher bar than Kosi as a KPF.

I've said this in the past, but if you viewed and played Cumbo as the 3rd marking "tall" rather than a crumbing, small fwd, you probably see his game and stats differently.

The player I compare him to is Linc McCarthy at the Lions. You look at his height, and would assume that he's a small forward like Charlie Cameron, but watching Linc McCarthy play, he's clearly more of an aerial player than that zippy small forward, whilst getting the occasional crumbing goal.

As a key forward he can't even take a contested grab. Height is irrelevant.

Might as well just play Ryan as a tall forward, at least he gets hands on the ball bring it down.
 
As a key forward he can't even take a contested grab. Height is irrelevant.

Might as well just play Ryan as a tall forward, at least he gets hands on the ball bring it down.

But not all key forwards are those types of players.

Daniher, whether rightly or wrongly, is seen as a premier key fwd of the competition, yet I don't think he's the best contested mark in terms of key fwds.

A different way to look at it, is how many times did you see Darcy Moore taking an intercept mark? FYI, Moore averaged the 4th most in terms of key defs last season.

We all know that Kosi isn't our number 1 fwd. Here just has to play the Lynch role until Lynch is fit again. We all gave leeway to Jack last season because, amongst various reasons, we just know that Jack isn't the same type of key fwd as Lynch.

You speak with people who's watched Kosi, and at his best, he's a lead up mark, rather than a pack crashing mark.
 
I really would like to see him used in multiple roles
His junior highlights package shows a lot of run/ carry from hb wing.

I reckon small forward would be the most difficult role in modern day football, sometimes it doesn’t hurt to get players up the ground a bit and give them the opportunity to get some easy possessions.
But he is not a small forward. His 3 goals were, one on a lead out of FF. One outbodied his opponent on the goal line and marked the ball and another contested mark on the boundary and playing on into the goals. Another goal assist was another mark and handball over the top. All different and all typical goals/assists that general to taller forwards take/create. He is a genuine marking option, but can also get up the ground as you mention as per his goal assist to Thompson late in the last.

The Doggies Weightman is a small forward, but he flies for marks, Elliot and a few others. Needs to play unstructured to a point, which was why he didn't get much of a run with Hardwick.

Looks like I'm repeating what others have said having read on. Let's hope that Yze reads this, Hardwick ignored us an look where that got him....
 
But he is not a small forward. His 3 goals were, one on a lead out of FF. One outbodied his opponent on the goal line and marked the ball and another contested mark on the boundary and playing on into the goals. Another goal assist was another mark and handball over the top. All different and all typical goals/assists that general to taller forwards take/create. He is a genuine marking option, but can also get up the ground as you mention as per his goal assist to Thompson late in the last.

The Doggies Weightman is a small forward, but he flies for marks, Elliot and a few others. Needs to play unstructured to a point, which was why he didn't get much of a run with Hardwick.

Looks like I'm repeating what others have said having read on. Let's hope that Yze reads this, Hardwick ignored us a look where that got him....
that’s right.. he ain’t a small forward and he ain’t a key forward..
He’s a hybrid, and a damn powerful and talented one.

That’s why I’ve been pumping up his tires for years cos he’s such a weapon that is an oppositions nightmare match up
 
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Player Watch #38 Noah Cumberland - Delisted

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