Expansion 3rd Western Australian club

[Coolangatta]

Canberra is less of an Aussie Rules town now, but still has more Aussie Rules fans overall than it did for our first bids.

Canberra made its first bid in 1981. Our population has since more than doubled, and will be nearly triple by the time the GWS deal ends. So less of a dominance, but more fans overall (and more room for growth).

I think Hobart fans were done with North before their own team became a likelihood. Their crowds dropped of in 2017. But that could have in-part helped spurred this latest push. I don't think Canberra would abandon the Giants to the same extent. In fact, I feel it might be a bit the opposite if we got our own team. There'd be an increased excitement around AFL and likely more people watching the few games we have before we get our own team.

I'd prefer a fresh team, and for GWS to embrace Western Sydney. But if the Giants were relocated to Canberra, and became the Canberra Giants, I'd get behind them. I think a lot of others would, too. I think a lot of the discontent is the part-time/interstate nature of the club, not the Giants entity itself.

Well, I don't think GWS is going anywhere. Seen the top Reddit response (not on there anymore but I digress) to the suggestion that they should move to Canberra? It's convincing.

"inhales

Growth in Auskick numbers in Western Sydney has outstripped every single location across Australia pre-pandemic.

Engagement with schools from the club is exceptional and out performs even some Melbourne clubs.

The club is injecting players into the AFL through their academy. Jack Steele, Josh Bruce, Tom Mitchell, Tom Barrass Jarrod Brander, Lachie Plowman Harrison McReadie, Charlie Spargo, Harry Cunningham, Zac Williams, Logan Austin, Dougal Howard, Jeremy Finlayson, Matthew Kennedy, Max Lynch, Will Setterfield, Cooper Sharman and Tom Highmore are just some of the AFL grade talent at other clubs who have come through it. They're literally expanding the playing pool.

GWS was brought in to combat declining interest in the sport due to only one game in NSW (30%+ of the Australian population) every week, including Swans memberships trending down just two years after a premiership.

Membership is up to 30,000, 300% from debut season.

GWS has no issues getting sponsors with the team in one of the largest micro-economies in the world.

The pandemic killed all momentum for attendance. 7 games in 1,015 days. Prior the game against the Dogs, GWS had played a total of 7 home games at GIANTS Stadium in front of an unrestricted crowd (i.e, not a ballot or restricted capacity), since their 2019 Elimination Final win.

0 games in 2020. 4 games in 2021. 3 games in 2022.

That's 1 game every 145 days.

In 2020, GWS played in rounds 2 & 4 at GIANTS Stadium. There were 350 and 487 people respectively. Rounds 5, 7 & 8 did allow a crowd, capped at 25% capacity, with ballots to attend games. Meanwhile the Suns kept momentum by having AFL almost solely played in their state for six months.

They basically are starting from scratch with getting people to attend in Western Sydney. And it doesn't get better. It's Round 16 and they only have 2 games remaining at GIANTS Stadium this year, including this weekend. The AFL fixturing has absolutely played a role.

Looking at crowd numbers in isolation and suggesting the club is failing to deliver is lazy analysis.

And for what it's worth, I'm a GWS foundation member who lives in Canberra.

exhales"

 

[Coolangatta]

I keep on toying with the idea of a GWS or North move to Canberra but only to keep the competition to 20 teams (with the 20th team being a NT/FNQ joint venture). That's not a good reason to do so, though. I'm just afraid that if the AFL doesn't expand after 20 teams, one of the ACT/NT is going to miss out on their own team and that'd be almost as big of a shame as Tasmania not getting a team. If the AFL has plans on going beyond 20 teams then there's hope.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Well, I don't think GWS is going anywhere. Seen the top Reddit response (not on there anymore but I digress) to the suggestion that they should move to Canberra? It's convincing.

"inhales

Growth in Auskick numbers in Western Sydney has outstripped every single location across Australia pre-pandemic.

Engagement with schools from the club is exceptional and out performs even some Melbourne clubs.

The club is injecting players into the AFL through their academy. Jack Steele, Josh Bruce, Tom Mitchell, Tom Barrass Jarrod Brander, Lachie Plowman Harrison McReadie, Charlie Spargo, Harry Cunningham, Zac Williams, Logan Austin, Dougal Howard, Jeremy Finlayson, Matthew Kennedy, Max Lynch, Will Setterfield, Cooper Sharman and Tom Highmore are just some of the AFL grade talent at other clubs who have come through it. They're literally expanding the playing pool.

GWS was brought in to combat declining interest in the sport due to only one game in NSW (30%+ of the Australian population) every week, including Swans memberships trending down just two years after a premiership.

Membership is up to 30,000, 300% from debut season.

GWS has no issues getting sponsors with the team in one of the largest micro-economies in the world.

The pandemic killed all momentum for attendance. 7 games in 1,015 days. Prior the game against the Dogs, GWS had played a total of 7 home games at GIANTS Stadium in front of an unrestricted crowd (i.e, not a ballot or restricted capacity), since their 2019 Elimination Final win.

0 games in 2020. 4 games in 2021. 3 games in 2022.

That's 1 game every 145 days.

In 2020, GWS played in rounds 2 & 4 at GIANTS Stadium. There were 350 and 487 people respectively. Rounds 5, 7 & 8 did allow a crowd, capped at 25% capacity, with ballots to attend games. Meanwhile the Suns kept momentum by having AFL almost solely played in their state for six months.

They basically are starting from scratch with getting people to attend in Western Sydney. And it doesn't get better. It's Round 16 and they only have 2 games remaining at GIANTS Stadium this year, including this weekend. The AFL fixturing has absolutely played a role.

Looking at crowd numbers in isolation and suggesting the club is failing to deliver is lazy analysis.

And for what it's worth, I'm a GWS foundation member who lives in Canberra.

exhales"

I absolutely agree. The Giants are there, and should be there, for the long-term. My response was just whether Canberra would embrace them in the event of a relocation, which I think we would. Tbh, I'd accept any relocation if that's what it took to get a team.

Western Sydney is huge though. And there's been so much groundwork laid. GWS should absolutely remain in Western Sydney (and solely in Western Sydney sooner rather than later).

I keep on toying with the idea of a GWS or North move to Canberra but only to keep the competition to 20 teams (with the 20th team being a NT/FNQ joint venture). That's not a good reason to do so, though. I'm just afraid that if the AFL doesn't expand after 20 teams, one of the ACT/NT is going to miss out on their own team and that'd be almost as big of a shame as Tasmania not getting a team. If the AFL has plans on going beyond 20 teams then there's hope.

If the AFL expands to 20 teams any time before 2040, there's no way it'll be a northern team. The numbers just don't support it and there won't be a big enough population centre to base the team. Cairns, Townsville and Darwin combined still have fewer people than Canberra, and NQ is AFL-friendly, but not AFL-friendly enough to support a team with that small of a population.

I know it's a romantic notion, and it would be cool if they could pull it off, but I don't think there's a chance any time soon.

 

[Coolangatta]

I absolutely agree. The Giants are there, and should be there, for the long-term. My response was just whether Canberra would embrace them in the event of a relocation, which I think we would. Tbh, I'd accept any relocation if that's what it took to get a team.

Western Sydney is huge though. And there's been so much groundwork laid. GWS should absolutely remain in Western Sydney (and solely in Western Sydney sooner rather than later).



If the AFL expands to 20 teams any time before 2040, there's no way it'll be a northern team. The numbers just don't support it and there won't be a big enough population centre to base the team. Cairns, Townsville and Darwin combined still have fewer people than Canberra, and NQ is AFL-friendly, but not AFL-friendly enough to support a team with that small of a population.

I know it's a romantic notion, and it would be cool if they could pull it off, but I don't think there's a chance any time soon.

Yeah, if ever a team was going to relocate to Canberra, it'd be the Kangaroos. National capital, national emblem, add some gold and the colours match. No need to do that of course if North is in a good position financially by the time Canberra can have a team, which could be as early as 2033 you'd hope.

And yes, I don't want a northern team before 2040, or before Canberra, especially since if they came in before Canberra, then I don't think Canberra would ever get a team, because they might settle on a 20 team competition.

Whether as if Canberra come in after Tasmania, everyone will still be cheering on for a northern team, which would mean an eventual expansion to 22 teams. Conferences seem to be very unpopular so you'd think 22-24 teams would be the max limit, long-term.

 

[Royalbeagle]

Well Victoria has 10 AFL teams and 6.6 million people. On average, that equates to 660,000 potential supporters per team.
Going from that precedent, Western Australia should have roughly 4 teams to represent our population of 2.6 million. And here we are arguing over the what’s and wherefores of a 3rd team. It’s a no brainer.

 

[Rob]

Well Victoria has 10 AFL teams and 6.6 million people. On average, that equates to 660,000 potential supporters per team.
Going from that precedent, Western Australia should have roughly 4 teams to represent our population of 2.6 million. And here we are arguing over the what’s and wherefores of a 3rd team. It’s a no brainer.

The only reason Victoria has 10 teams is due to historical accident, and at least 4 of them get heavily subsidised just so they can stay solvent.

It shouldn't be used as the benchmark as to what other areas can support a team.

 

[RedV3x]

It’s a no brainer.

In theory maybe. The reality is completely different for many reasons already given.

 

[Coolangatta]

A team actually named Perth would be nice: Perth Pirates maybe. Wouldn't want a 3rd WA team to hold Canberra back from getting a team or jeopardising their potential future in the AFL, though.

 

[Bjo187]

Well, I don't think GWS is going anywhere. Seen the top Reddit response (not on there anymore but I digress) to the suggestion that they should move to Canberra? It's convincing.

"inhales

Growth in Auskick numbers in Western Sydney has outstripped every single location across Australia pre-pandemic.

Engagement with schools from the club is exceptional and out performs even some Melbourne clubs.

The club is injecting players into the AFL through their academy. Jack Steele, Josh Bruce, Tom Mitchell, Tom Barrass Jarrod Brander, Lachie Plowman Harrison McReadie, Charlie Spargo, Harry Cunningham, Zac Williams, Logan Austin, Dougal Howard, Jeremy Finlayson, Matthew Kennedy, Max Lynch, Will Setterfield, Cooper Sharman and Tom Highmore are just some of the AFL grade talent at other clubs who have come through it. They're literally expanding the playing pool.

GWS was brought in to combat declining interest in the sport due to only one game in NSW (30%+ of the Australian population) every week, including Swans memberships trending down just two years after a premiership.

Membership is up to 30,000, 300% from debut season.

GWS has no issues getting sponsors with the team in one of the largest micro-economies in the world.

The pandemic killed all momentum for attendance. 7 games in 1,015 days. Prior the game against the Dogs, GWS had played a total of 7 home games at GIANTS Stadium in front of an unrestricted crowd (i.e, not a ballot or restricted capacity), since their 2019 Elimination Final win.

0 games in 2020. 4 games in 2021. 3 games in 2022.

That's 1 game every 145 days.

In 2020, GWS played in rounds 2 & 4 at GIANTS Stadium. There were 350 and 487 people respectively. Rounds 5, 7 & 8 did allow a crowd, capped at 25% capacity, with ballots to attend games. Meanwhile the Suns kept momentum by having AFL almost solely played in their state for six months.

They basically are starting from scratch with getting people to attend in Western Sydney. And it doesn't get better. It's Round 16 and they only have 2 games remaining at GIANTS Stadium this year, including this weekend. The AFL fixturing has absolutely played a role.

Looking at crowd numbers in isolation and suggesting the club is failing to deliver is lazy analysis.

And for what it's worth, I'm a GWS foundation member who lives in Canberra.

exhales"

I thought you lived in w.a, originally thought qld, now it's Canberra?

Anyhow I've been concerned about the giants, but looking at the history of the swans crowds in their first 10 years, they are near comparable. That being said, these days it might be more difficult to attract a star there with free agency, plus gws have the local media running them into the ground constantly which doesn't help.

 

[Coolangatta]

I thought you lived in w.a, originally thought qld, now it's Canberra?

Anyhow I've been concerned about the giants, but looking at the history of the swans crowds in their first 10 years, they are near comparable. That being said, these days it might be more difficult to attract a star there with free agency, plus gws have the local media running them into the ground constantly which doesn't help. View attachment 1606571

I have to live in Canberra to advocate for a Canberra team?

Anyway, interesting numbers, goes to show 10 years isn’t enough time to see if GWS has been a success or not.

Local media running them into the ground? Got an example? I’m not doubting you, just curious.

 

[Canberra Pear]

The only reason Victoria has 10 teams is due to historical accident, and at least 4 of them get heavily subsidised just so they can stay solvent.

It shouldn't be used as the benchmark as to what other areas can support a team.

Exactly. Victoria is not something to emulate. You don't want to create a WA3 and WA4 just to reach that quota, and then end up with drains on the competition.

It would've been great if the earlier competition was more of a merger with the strongest clubs from the WAFL, SANFL and VFL, but that didn't happen, and any new WA and SA team will be incredibly behind.

 

[Demon13304]

I thought you lived in w.a, originally thought qld, now it's Canberra?

Anyhow I've been concerned about the giants, but looking at the history of the swans crowds in their first 10 years, they are near comparable. That being said, these days it might be more difficult to attract a star there with free agency, plus gws have the local media running them into the ground constantly which doesn't help.

Nah he was quoting a post from Reddit from someone who lives in Canberra. Coolangatta just forgot to put quotation marks around it

 

[Walshawk]

I thought you lived in w.a, originally thought qld, now it's Canberra?

Anyhow I've been concerned about the giants, but looking at the history of the swans crowds in their first 10 years, they are near comparable. That being said, these days it might be more difficult to attract a star there with free agency, plus gws have the local media running them into the ground constantly which doesn't help. View attachment 1606571

To compare you need to allow for the fact that crowds overall (both AFL and NRL) are now around 50% higher than 40 years ago. So, 10k then is comparable to 15k now. Swans averages even in the early days was higher than RL games. In 86/87 they averaged double RL, including multiple 30k+ crowds and four crowds in the top 20 those seasons. So it was clear early on that the Swans had the potential to be a really big club. GWS even in top 4 years have never averaged higher than Sydney NRL clubs. No crowds over 16k not involving the Swans. There is not a lot to suggest that the potential is there.

I am all for a second Sydney club but change is needed and they need help with branding, promotion, fixturing. The Swans had too much influence on their set up. GWS as a name/brand is horrible. It should have been Sydney Giants or West Sydney Giants. The inner west where footy is strong should be part of the Giants zone. Hopefully Canberra get a team and the AFL can reimagine the Giants.

 

[Bushy70]

Well Victoria has 10 AFL teams and 6.6 million people. On average, that equates to 660,000 potential supporters per team.
Going from that precedent, Western Australia should have roughly 4 teams to represent our population of 2.6 million. And here we are arguing over the what’s and wherefores of a 3rd team. It’s a no brainer.

If you look at the recent drafts then Victoria provides approx 50% of the players.. so in a 20 league comp 10 teams seams about right. Just on 15% from SA ( so SA should have2.5 teams). WA with 2 teams is about given that they normally supply approx 10% of the players…. All this assumes the we want the location of teams to roughly align with the split of where the actual players come from.

 

[Bjo187]

To compare you need to allow for the fact that crowds overall (both AFL and NRL) are now around 50% higher than 40 years ago. So, 10k then is comparable to 15k now. Swans averages even in the early days was higher than RL games. In 86/87 they averaged double RL, including multiple 30k+ crowds and four crowds in the top 20 those seasons. So it was clear early on that the Swans had the potential to be a really big club. GWS even in top 4 years have never averaged higher than Sydney NRL clubs. No crowds over 16k not involving the Swans. There is not a lot to suggest that the potential is there.

I am all for a second Sydney club but change is needed and they need help with branding, promotion, fixturing. The Swans had too much influence on their set up. GWS as a name/brand is horrible. It should have been Sydney Giants or West Sydney Giants. The inner west where footy is strong should be part of the Giants zone. Hopefully Canberra get a team and the AFL can reimagine the Giants.

Yeah agree with that, but the swans had the advantage of having south fans to start off with as at least some supporter base and being the only footy you could watch in town, so every southern states ex-pat living in nsw would go to watch them if feeling nostalgic. It might explain why the GWS idea was so bad at the same time though, it was the one market you would never start a team off cold turkey.

 

[RedV3x]

To compare you need to allow for the fact that crowds overall (both AFL and NRL) are now around 50% higher than 40 years ago. So, 10k then is comparable to 15k now. Swans averages even in the early days was higher than RL games. In 86/87 they averaged double RL, including multiple 30k+ crowds and four crowds in the top 20 those seasons. So it was clear early on that the Swans had the potential to be a really big club.

Some Swans attendances at the SCG were comparable with all NRL games in Sydney over a weekend.

There is not a lot to suggest that the potential is there.

There is the potential of population and when GWS started threatening they did draw attention.

I am all for a second Sydney club but change is needed and they need help with branding, promotion, fixturing.

Yes.

The Swans had too much influence on their set up.

Possibly, but the incumbent always has a huge advantage with first dibs.

 

[RedV3x]

the Swans had the advantage of having South fans to start off

In Melbourne.

with as at least some supporter base and being the only footy you could watch in town,

No. The Swans stole a significant part of the SFL attendances.

so every southern states

So W.A. is South ?

It might explain why the GWS idea was so bad at the same time though

No. GWS was planned an it was not envisaged that they were would be an immediate success.
Onfield success largely drives sports followings.

 

[kranger]

If you look at the recent drafts then Victoria provides approx 50% of the players.. so in a 20 league comp 10 teams seams about right. Just on 15% from SA ( so SA should have2.5 teams). WA with 2 teams is about given that they normally supply approx 10% of the players…. All this assumes the we want the location of teams to roughly align with the split of where the actual players come from.

However is there a bias with the player selection.

Is the fact there are so many Victorians teams, resulting in those clubs favouring local boys low in the draft. Picking Victorians removes the risk of the ‘go home factor’ of picking equally skilled players from outside Victoria.

Likewise, non-Victorian clubs pick local kids lower in the draft where possible. But because there are fewer WA teams and SA teams etc, less kids from those states are pick up, despite being as good as others who get drafted.

So, if there were less Victorian teams, would the percentage of Victorian pick in the draft also go down?

I don’t know the stats, but just a thought.

 

[Coolangatta]

Nah he was quoting a post from Reddit from someone who lives in Canberra. Coolangatta just forgot to put quotation marks around it

I began my quotation marks at "inhales" and ended at "exhales" but just a nit pick there.

I am all for a second Sydney club but change is needed and they need help with branding, promotion, fixturing. The Swans had too much influence on their set up. GWS as a name/brand is horrible. It should have been Sydney Giants or West Sydney Giants. The inner west where footy is strong should be part of the Giants zone. Hopefully Canberra get a team and the AFL can reimagine the Giants.

I've seen people strongly disapprove of the GWS brand ever being changed. The club song and colours are great. You might be right about the name, but some polling around it would give better insight. You'd have to ask non-GWS supporters too, though, because a large chunk of the GWS supporters are unlikely to have an issue with the brand at all.

 

[Canberra Pear]

I've seen people strongly disapprove of the GWS brand ever being changed. The club song and colours are great. You might be right about the name, but some polling around it would give better insight. You'd have to ask non-GWS supporters too, though, because a large chunk of the GWS supporters are unlikely to have an issue with the brand at all.

I wasn't a fan of the GWS name initially, but I think it's become such a well-known brand that changing it now wouldn't be a good idea.

There's some ambiguity in the name. I think the term Greater Western Sydney is pretty obvious, but people still seem to think that it's a wish-washy term to include Canberra (it's not, it has nothing to do with Canberra). I think once the Canberra connection and any ambiguity is gone, the name will be better embraced and understood.

I'm not a fan of the G on the main guernsey, I think it looks too much like a Gatorade bottle, but I think most of the rest of the branding has been a win. Great colours, great song. Love the mostly black guernsey.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

I wasn't a fan of the GWS name initially, but I think it's become such a well-known brand that changing it now wouldn't be a good idea.

There's some ambiguity in the name. I think the term Greater Western Sydney is pretty obvious, but people still seem to think that it's a wish-washy term to include Canberra (it's not, it has nothing to do with Canberra). I think once the Canberra connection and any ambiguity is gone, the name will be better embraced and understood.

I'm not a fan of the G on the main guernsey, I think it looks too much like a Gatorade bottle, but I think most of the rest of the branding has been a win. Great colours, great song. Love the mostly black guernsey.

Note also that GWS have been rebranding as GIANTS in all of their communications in recent years

 

[Canberra Pear]

Note also that GWS have been rebranding as GIANTS in all of their communications in recent years

Which I think is dumb. They're maybe the fourth biggest Giants sports brand globally.

But the name GWS is unique - and actually gives people in Sydney something to identify with. It stands out as Western Sydney, without sounding identical to the Western Sydney Wanderers/Razorbacks/Ice Dogs etc.

I think they should be leaning more heavily on GWS than Giants.

And don't get me started on the Giants and Suns always capitalising their names. It hurts to read.

 

[Ambrose Burnside]

I wasn't a fan of the GWS name initially, but I think it's become such a well-known brand that changing it now wouldn't be a good idea.

Could change it to "the orange team"?

 

[Bjo187]

I wasn't a fan of the GWS name initially, but I think it's become such a well-known brand that changing it now wouldn't be a good idea.

There's some ambiguity in the name. I think the term Greater Western Sydney is pretty obvious, but people still seem to think that it's a wish-washy term to include Canberra (it's not, it has nothing to do with Canberra). I think once the Canberra connection and any ambiguity is gone, the name will be better embraced and understood.

I'm not a fan of the G on the main guernsey, I think it looks too much like a Gatorade bottle, but I think most of the rest of the branding has been a win. Great colours, great song. Love the mostly black guernsey.

Sorry disagree with you here. You need to be recognised as western sydney in a market where the majority barely know you exist. The gws name is no different to western United in the A league calling themselves GWM. Nobody would know wtf it means.

I also like the G logo and the colours have become much better since puma came on board, they were dull and bland previously. I still would have liked blue in their colours to contrast better with the swans, but agree their never surrender jumper is their best one.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Sorry disagree with you here. You need to be recognised as western sydney in a market where the majority barely know you exist. The gws name is no different to western United in the A league calling themselves GWM. Nobody would know wtf it means.

I also like the G logo and the colours have become much better since puma came on board, they were dull and bland previously. I still would have liked blue in their colours to contrast better with the swans, but agree their never surrender jumper is their best one.

I say this with no experience of living in Sydney.

"Western Sydney" is definitely more identifiable from a location perspective, but "GWS" is distinct. Across all competitions, all sports, you know who GWS is. But whatever they're called, whether it's Western Sydney or GWS, I think that title should be more important in the marketing than the "Giants".

I agree that the uniforms are better now. I think a lesser focus on white is good. I love the Never Surrender colour scheme, but I still would've preferred a more traditional guernsey. The Never Surrender would've looked great with three really thin chevrons. I also think black and orange hoops would've looked good.