Toast A Win For The Beautiful Game

[The Royal Sampler]

I thought I'd put this out there now that we've all had a chance to digest our epic premiership win; the Magpies winning the flag is good for the AFL and Australian Rules as a whole.

Much like when Geelong won in 2007 with a free-flowing, flood-beating game style which lived or died on contested ball winning footy, the Pies rightly taking possession of the 2010 Cup was on the back of fierce pressure and a kick-rather-than-handball mindset.

Make no mistake, "Saints Footy" is shit. No-one wants to watch that crap. If 15 teams had entered 2011 trying to emulate that freakin' snorefest I'd dare anyone to endure more than a quarter of it, without wishing Better Homes and Gardens was still dominating the box.

Viva La Shitdown Defence!

 

[jonbe54]

The swarm shall return in 2011 - run from it at a ground near you

 

[Plogs]

Can't see "Saint's footy" garnering much traction from here on in. Won't win flags.

 

[mattys123]

There's only one team left that plays that shit gameplan, and that's StKilda.

Now that Roos has gone from Sydney, you will even find them opening up their gamestyle and making it more attacking.

Let's face it, the last 4 premiers (Geelong x 2, Hawks and Pies) have all played a fierce, attacking game style yet with a strong defensive base.

Stkilda didn't win a flag with their bullshit style, and yes, the AFL is better off for it.

Thank god for the pies, we saved the AFL.

 

[Lenz]

Maybe I'm utterly confused but isn't the Collingwood "swarm" merely a bigger, better, faster and more risk-taking version of the Saint's "press"??? I thought the received wisdom is that they pioneered a tactic - playing the entire game in your forward half if you can - but were laid low with injuries while we took it to the next level and were fortunate with injuries (except for Presti dammit). What are the big differences that you see between us that make their style crap and ours great?

 

[jonbe54]

Maybe I'm utterly confused but isn't the Collingwood "swarm" merely a bigger, better, faster and more risk-taking version of the Saint's "press"??? I thought the received wisdom is that they pioneered a tactic - playing the entire game in your forward half if you can - but were laid low with injuries while we took it to the next level and were fortunate with injuries (except for Presti dammit). What are the big differences that you see between us that make their style crap and ours great?

Misinformation mate - when we win the ball we spread and run HARD the aints piss arse around with it for 5 kicks on their backline

 

[shawthing09]

The man difference between the Saints style and our style is in the mindset when moving the ball foward. We move it extremely quick and kick the ball long more then any other team in the game. As it is the AFL are trying to make rules to make re-introduce long kicking, and contested marks but we did it of our own accord to great success and that generally means that other teams will follow suit trying to emulate it.

 

[TradeDraft]

Agree Sampler. This will bring back Kicking the Footy and not Hand-balling

Opposite to what Geelong Did

 

[Zahki]

I like how we took all the good parts from the Saints game plan and made it much, much more offensive. Check out these scores from early in the season

Round 4: 123
Round 5: 120
Round 6: 155
Round 7: 157
Round 8: 133

St Kilda would never ever have 5 weeks of scores that high.

 

[jonbe54]

I like how we took all the good parts from the Saints game plan and made it much, much more offensive. Check out these scores from early in the season

Round 4: 123
Round 5: 120
Round 6: 155
Round 7: 157
Round 8: 133

St Kilda would never ever have 5 weeks of scores that high.

Looks like scores I saw in the 70's with macca threading them thru and greening slotting them through from HFF

 

[shawthing09]

Agree Sampler. This will bring back Kicking the Footy and not Hand-balling

Opposite to what Geelong Did

Make no mistake about it what Geelong did was more significant as a saving grace to football then what we have done. When Geelong came to full strength the trend in football was to flood back defensively and turn the game into low scoring slogs. Their ability to develop the skills to execute the game plan they had so consistantly and do it succesfully really set the bench mark and kept attacking football fashionable.

It may have been handball happy football but it was attacking, high scoring and good to watch.

 

[jonbe54]

Make no mistake about it what Geelong did was more significant as a saving grace to football then what we have done. When Geelong came to full strength the trend in football was to flood back defensively and turn the game into low scoring slogs. There ability to develop the skills to execute the game plan they had so consistantly and do it succesfully really set the bench mark and kept attacking football fashionable.

It may have been handball happy football but it was attacking, high scoring and good to watch.

Absolutely agree they saved footy as a spectacle and entertainment. Props catters!

 

[Quicky]

Vinnie Vegas summed up our gameplan best in this post.

In developing the forward pressure rolling zone, we've been able to hold teams defensively with hard tackling and implied pressure resulting in bad kicks out of defense, but by stopping them before they even get out of our forward half of the ground, we allow ourselves many more opportunities to score than a team that looks to tighten up through the midfield and down back primarily.

The bold is the difference between us and StKilda. We set up our press from the forward half and have a more aggressive mindset when moving the ball. The Saints set it up from midfield and defense and have a more cautious approach with their ball movement.

 

[Lenz]

Misinformation mate - when we win the ball we spread and run HARD the aints piss arse around with it for 5 kicks on their backline

Yep, I'll agree with you on that, and someone else wrote about long kicking and the AFL attempting to encourage it back.

I just think, and again maybe I'm wrong, that the biggest difference between us and almost every other team, really lies not so much in tactics as in Malthouse's coaching and empowerment of his players, and in our general skill-and-fitness-levels. That long kick from Goldsack out of the goal square that was punched on by Jolly and gathered and kicked and goaled by a couple of others, all in the space if what, about 6 or 7 or 8 seconds, that's a team brimming with confidence and which is essentially unpredictable and, as was shown, ultimately unstoppable (once they got the bugs out and got through their nerves in the drawn first GF).

 

[jonbe54]

Yep, I'll agree with you on that, and someone else wrote about long kicking and the AFL attempting to encourage it back.

I just think, and again maybe I'm wrong, that the biggest difference between us and almost every other team, really lies not so much in tactics as in Malthouse's coaching and empowerment of his players, and in our general skill-and-fitness-levels. That long kick from Goldsack out of the goal square that was punched on by Jolly and gathered and kicked and goaled by a couple of others, all in the space if what, about 6 or 7 or 8 seconds, that's a team brimming with confidence and which is essentially unpredictable and, as was shown, ultimately unstoppable (once they got the bugs out and got through their nerves in the drawn first GF).

It hasn't been focused on much but how important was the experience of that first granny to our young players?
They learned the importance of maintaining structures and the intense mental and physical effort to win a granny, almost lost and fought back to draw, then went on to smash their opponents next week.

I reckon all of that just adds so much to their experience and attitude in future tough contests.

 

[Pie eyed]

Make no mistake about it what Geelong did was more significant as a saving grace to football then what we have done. When Geelong came to full strength the trend in football was to flood back defensively and turn the game into low scoring slogs. Their ability to develop the skills to execute the game plan they had so consistantly and do it succesfully really set the bench mark and kept attacking football fashionable.

It may have been handball happy football but it was attacking, high scoring and good to watch.

Totally agree. Geelong dragged footy out of the doldrums, thank god, in 2007.

 

[Stripes B and W]

Fantastic thread Sampler, have been thinking this exact same thing. It has to said, the way the Saints play would be the least pleasing visual example of the great game.
As for the imaginative epithet ' Saints Footy', lets just hope it gets rejigged and reworked for the sake of the fans. Without any doubt the worst football to watch were some recent Swans / Saints matches. Roos slowly and not before time releashed the shackles, he can of course lay claim to the ultimate success with his style. Professional games of all sorts evolve in everyway, these changes are always driven by success.
Lyon clearly brought the mid 2000's sydney style with him, with some variation. Clearly he recognised it needed pace and flair with the recruitment of Lovett and Peake. Still some work to be done for the Saints. With the exception of a few stars, the captain,Goddard and Hayes most notably, they are terrible to watch...

As for us, be interesting to see the the evolution of our game and some individuals, one you can see already in the addition of Tarrant as a potential substitute.
I think we will even ramp up the forward pressure and im certain other clubs will look to emulate the talent that we can afford to permanently patrol our back half. Has there ever been a more talented and QUICK back meduim sized group as Shaw, Harry O, BJ and Tooves and others at times. Tooves gets a mention primarliy for his pace!!

 

[Soul_Pie]

It's a misconception that Collingwood's press and St Kilda's are alike, the media partly drove this idea but really the only similarity is that like most modern football tactics it's about the utilisation and the occupation of space. When you watch the two teams live in action they are poles apart in their structure and their mindset.

St Kilda is all about getting numbers back, having blokes behind the ball, holding onto the ball when you do have it; it's a negative gamestyle, it's risk averse, it limits scoring opportunities and frankly it's dreadful to watch. You watch their games and typically they crowd the defensive 50 to an extent that no other team does. It's essentially an extreme version of the old Sydney gameplan, only more defensive and incorporating more aspects of zoning.

Collingwood's "swarm" (frankly I'm really into this label) is all about creating opportunities to score no matter what part of the ground you're in. It's about offence through defence and it's full on, intense and absolutely amazing to watch in full flight. It also requires players to be of a vastly different mindset, St Kilda's view is that when the opposition win the ball you run back as hard as you can to flood the crap out of the defensive half, it's a defeatist mindset and a negative mindset.

Collingwood's view is that when the opposition win the ball you do everything in your power to get it back off them straight away. It's about being pro-active rather than just sitting back and waiting for the opposition to make a blunder.

Also, when the Pies get the ball we kick it long, we trust our skills, we may use the boundary but we play it well and play it fast. St Kilda, on the other hand do not risk the ball, they have a wealth of poorly skilled players and that means that they generally only are able to move the ball forward when in the hands of a decent player, so for the most part their band of cookie cutter half flankers just chip it around until one of their decent players gets their hand on it. Lyon knows that the bottom 10 or so players in the St Kilda have average skills and are average decision makers, this is why he employs the super defensive gameplan to cover for this. There's limited trust in the players ability, which is why seemingly they are told not to back their own skills but instead chip it sideways and backwards.

So yes, our victory over the Saints was not just a victory for the Pies over the arrogant tossbags down St Kilda way, but also a victory for football watchers in general who probably would have been subject to nearly every team emulating 'Saints Footy' and all the crudulence it entails had the Saints won the flag.

 

[HAWKS HEROES]

i would make a thread on this but got myself into trouble sadly so here will have to do


2010 AFL PREMIERSHIP CUP IN VENUE 27TH NOV 2010


http://www.thecoachandhorses.com.au/index.html


Coach & Horses
33 Maroondah Hwy, Ringwood, Victoria, 3134

thought you guys would like to know !!!

cheers

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Christ imagine if everyone tried to emulate Saints footy.

AFL would have been dreading it. Imagine watching half the comp trying to match what St.Kilda do. I'd probably stop watching football.

 

[jonbe54]

Christ imagine if everyone tried to emulate Saints footy.

AFL would have been dreading it. Imagine watching half the comp trying to match what St.Kilda do. I'd probably stop watching football.

AFL could have marketed itself as a somnolence and regularity promoting program. 16 teams dicking around with the footy waiting for the other to cough it up would put half the viewers into a deep coma and given the rest of us a severe and ongoing case of the squirts, not mention technicolour yawns.

 

[Pie eyed]

Christ imagine if everyone tried to emulate Saints footy.

AFL would have been dreading it. Imagine watching half the comp trying to match what St.Kilda do. I'd probably stop watching football.

Isn't Saints Footy just Swans Footy circa 2005 with a cast change and no rucks of any note?

Maybe I'm just imagining it.

 

[Sloth]

Looks like scores I saw in the 70's with macca threading them thru and greening slotting them through from HFF

Except that we generally have a dozen goalkickers instead of relying on one FF and a CHF

 

[jonbe54]

Except that we generally have a dozen goalkickers instead of relying on one FF and a CHF

Totally agree, it's nothing for us to have 11 separate goalkickers and a number of times 12 and 13 separate goalkickers. You simply cannot shut down that type of goal kicking power. Unlike StKilda relying so heavily on Nicky boy we can't be shut out by closing one forward down.

 

[Old Spice]

I don't mind the game played with a multitude of styles. Just like test matches V 50/50 V 20/20 the tempos and tactics are different but can be good or bad to watch in either setting.

I don't really hate the Saints game style when the affair is willing. The 2007 GF was boring as bat-shit, despite the Cats game style, but that's because the contest was never close. The Saints like to control momentum and ball possession when the game gets away from them, but usually that indicates the game is close and fairly competitive. I've seen good and bad games played defensively and offensively.

One of the main differences in our defensive play is that it results in quick rebounds from defense, see Harry, Heater, Reid et al to spreading options - Sts are more likely to try and pinpoint targets or possess. Our defensive focus up forward is aimed at turnover and snagging a quick one.

St Kilda tend not to have a defensive overall game-style, like Collingwood, but an overabundance of defensive players: scraggers and lock-down taggers, ie eg. Jones, Baker, Dempster.

Our players are a lot more versatile in terms of where you can position them on the ground, as well as being offensvie and defensive where they are. Our number of positional specialists is limited compared to the Saints, most players have been given the fitness and skill / devlopment base to be shifted around like chess pieces to play multiple roles, not just pawn pieces either.