Autopsy AFL 2019 Round 18: Geelong Cats vs. Hawthorn, 1:10pm AEST MCG

[philohk]

I know everyone's piling on Whiskers but wanted to add in my 2c on the three flags in a row through umpiring and sides just *miraculously* not playing well against us. Of course you need some things to go your way to win a flag, but you can literally use that to devalue just about any modern premiership.

Think of the most dominant team in modern history and you probably think of Essendon 2000. Now go back and look and the ladder. The other finalists' records tell a story. Melbourne was third on 14-8 and 118%. Apart from Carlton, ruined by injury at the wrong time, there were no other decent sides in a year Essendon probably peaked. The next few years showed they weren't a great side, just a very good one. 2007 was similar - there were no serious challengers, with the Eagles on the way down and the Hawks still developing. Port played well at the right time to get to the GF but they were among a bunch of also-rans. How far do you take it? 2011 we gave Collingwood their GF the week before - it was no wonder Geelong ran away in the last quarter. Brisbane won two of their three against a plucky but undermanned Collingwood - and even then they nearly dropped one.

It's a futile exercise. All those sides deserved to win flags and should be recognised for it. They still had to play well and put in the work over the course of a season and a finals series. To put one flag, let alone three in a row, purely down to luck is sheer stupidity.

 

[Whiskers]

Was going to say the same. Started as level headed commentary, ended up bitching about Hawthorn winning too many flags.

I never said you won too many flags, could’ve even been more with luck.
It’s just you are seen by many as the greatest side ever and I highly disagree.
People form the opinion based on 3 in a row. It’s a simplistic judgement and if that’s how we form opinions we may as well not watch any games.
I use the eye test, I watch games.
Hawthorn in the 80s were better, but are we going to disagree because they didn’t win ‘3 in a row’

You Hawthorn fans are very sooky and can’t handle someone challenging a pre conceived idea.
I’ve mainly come in here to criticise my own side, who is sitting top (something a hawthorn fan could never do) I’ve paid a huge compliment to your ‘08 side.
Take your goggles off and instead of looking solely at a perceived criticism, why not focus on things I said you might be happy about.
Ie your deserved 08 flag or my side over achieving. Those are things I’m sure you’re happy to agree on but f me how dare I criticise hawks of 13-15.
Oh no, bad me.

 

[winty]

Lmfao spot on! However I think every team has to compete against the cats umpiring assistance. I can't remember the last time they lost a free kick count. I guess that happens when you have the king of kings in duckwood & freekickHawkins.

3 weeks ago - were on the receiving end of a 28-13 free kick count. Lost the free kick count the 2 weeks prior to that too.

 

[CD Xbow]

And luckily for us, we remain effectively two games clear of second with five to play.

Nobody claimed we played well or deserved to win on Sunday but the loss was as inconsequential as it gets in terms of current standings.

Yes, we need to drastically improve if we want to succeed in finals but suggesting we've been worked out is as much wishful thinking as it is me expecting we will win every game by 40+ from here.

I think you've been worked out a bit, and I think Four pillars previous post describes what you need to do about it. (double like it if I could) You've got the cattle to do it, no doubt as do 5 or 6 other clubs this year. I think most folks would still continue to have you as favourites. Can you adapt? Have you got the coaching & the plans? Are you willing to pay the price, feel the pain?

With this year so even the real determinant is going to be good old Lady Luck,

 

[Holy Rioli]

3 weeks ago - were on the receiving end of a 28-13 free kick count. Lost the free kick count the 2 weeks prior to that too.

I think the point being made in the previous post is there is a perception that Geelong play for and complain about free kicks more than any other club in the competition. Scott mouthing off at the umps at 3 qtr time and then complaining about not getting a 50 for Burgoyne tackling someone who marked a 10m kicked on AFL360 on Monday only reinforces this perception. Especially in a game where the consensus is after quarter time Geelong seemed to be the team that benefited from the umpiring.

At the moment it feels like he on behalf of Geelong is on a crusade to push the Geelong agenda as far as they can without actually being reprimanded for it. Outside of the regular complaints about umpiring decisions, he's also taken time this year to make his own judgements ahead of any MRO decisions and push Geelong's agenda for a home final at GMHBA. On top of that the club are also trying to play a very political game to get VFA flags recognised as AFL premierships.

 

[Whiskers]

I know everyone's piling on Whiskers but wanted to add in my 2c on the three flags in a row through umpiring and sides just *miraculously* not playing well against us. Of course you need some things to go your way to win a flag, but you can literally use that to devalue just about any modern premiership.

Think of the most dominant team in modern history and you probably think of Essendon 2000. Now go back and look and the ladder. The other finalists' records tell a story. Melbourne was third on 14-8 and 118%. Apart from Carlton, ruined by injury at the wrong time, there were no other decent sides in a year Essendon probably peaked. The next few years showed they weren't a great side, just a very good one. 2007 was similar - there were no serious challengers, with the Eagles on the way down and the Hawks still developing. Port played well at the right time to get to the GF but they were among a bunch of also-rans. How far do you take it? 2011 we gave Collingwood their GF the week before - it was no wonder Geelong ran away in the last quarter. Brisbane won two of their three against a plucky but undermanned Collingwood - and even then they nearly dropped one.

It's a futile exercise. All those sides deserved to win flags and should be recognised for it. They still had to play well and put in the work over the course of a season and a finals series. To put one flag, let alone three in a row, purely down to luck is sheer stupidity.

One single moment changes 3 in a row. If port get a crucial decision go their way you’re suddenly not great?
One of the most minor things go another way through no fault of your own and suddenly people don’t rate you that highly.
Flawed logic, yet accepted.
From the PF of 12 all the way to the PF of 14, not once in that time of 5 crucial finals, did I go wow what a great side. 14 GF was the 1st time I was actually impressed but geez you rode ya luck getting there more so than a true great side would.
It’s ok having tough games here and there but never putting away mediocre interstate sides or a depleted Geelong one means I’m not convinced.
Our era at least had other very good sides whilst the Lions from 01-04 were more dominant more often.

I know you’ll never admit to Geelong being better but Brisbane were so far superior than hawks in every way, yet most of you genuinely believe hawks to be the best.
Luck played almost no part for them. They even had to play home finals away.
Essendon in ‘01 and Port Adelaide were bloody good teams back than also.

 

[Whiskers]

3 weeks ago - were on the receiving end of a 28-13 free kick count. Lost the free kick count the 2 weeks prior to that too.

It’s rare anyone gets near the Bulldogs in a free kick count.
Not even west Coast at Optus.

 

[Roddy]

We occupy so much space in many cat fans’ heads it really is quite astonishing. I think I’ll start calling it ‘Hawk Derangement Syndrome’.....

 

[TheFourPillars]

One single moment changes 3 in a row. If port get a crucial decision go their way you’re suddenly not great?
One of the most minor things go another way through no fault of your own and suddenly people don’t rate you that highly.
Flawed logic, yet accepted.
From the PF of 12 all the way to the PF of 14, not once in that time of 5 crucial finals, did I go wow what a great side. 14 GF was the 1st time I was actually impressed but geez you rode ya luck getting there more so than a true great side would.
It’s ok having tough games here and there but never putting away mediocre interstate sides or a depleted Geelong one means I’m not convinced.
Our era at least had other very good sides whilst the Lions from 01-04 were more dominant more often.

I know you’ll never admit to Geelong being better but Brisbane were so far superior than hawks in every way, yet most of you genuinely believe hawks to be the best.
Luck played almost no part for them. They even had to play home finals away.
Essendon in ‘01 and Port Adelaide were bloody good teams back than also.

HAHA mate I think you need to console yourself with this sort of thinking it is you who can't bear the alternative. In 2007 you were a kick away from not making a grand final and in 2009 a toe poke and a bounce away from losing one. Lets not forget the Hawkins poster that was called a goal. What IFs are for losers I have seen plenty of What ifs in my life time. That's why that Eminem song is so bloody good you only get one shot

 

[Holy Rioli]

One single moment changes 3 in a row. If port get a crucial decision go their way you’re suddenly not great?

How many ****ing more decisions did they need to go there way? Absolutely got everything but one call in that last quarter.

 

[philohk]

One single moment changes 3 in a row. If port get a crucial decision go their way you’re suddenly not great?
One of the most minor things go another way through no fault of your own and suddenly people don’t rate you that highly.
Flawed logic, yet accepted.
From the PF of 12 all the way to the PF of 14, not once in that time of 5 crucial finals, did I go wow what a great side. 14 GF was the 1st time I was actually impressed but geez you rode ya luck getting there more so than a true great side would.
It’s ok having tough games here and there but never putting away mediocre interstate sides or a depleted Geelong one means I’m not convinced.
Our era at least had other very good sides whilst the Lions from 01-04 were more dominant more often.

I know you’ll never admit to Geelong being better but Brisbane were so far superior than hawks in every way, yet most of you genuinely believe hawks to be the best.
Luck played almost no part for them. They even had to play home finals away.
Essendon in ‘01 and Port Adelaide were bloody good teams back than also.

But why pick out one? People focus on that but it wasn't the only significant call late in the match - the last several minutes had a lot of decisions that might have been made one way or the other. That's what happens in tight finals. If you want to talk about umpiring, go back to the 2013 PF you keep mentioning - a couple of terrible decisions against us in the third quarter were worth about three goals, which was your lead at the last change. If you want to talk about luck and 2014, how about us having the most talented injury list I can remember? Even the coach missed five weeks!

As for which triple premier was better, I couldn't say - I missed a lot of footy in 01-04 when I first moved overseas. But it's a pointless argument. Nobody wins a flag by accident or luck, even though it plays a small part. You certainly don't win three.

 

[KermitJagger]

Our era at least had other very good sides whilst the Lions from 01-04 were more dominant more often.

Hawthorn in 2015 won their games by an average of 60 points. We didn't win a game by less than 10.

That included two consecutive weeks where we beat top of the table Fremantle by 72 points, and grand finalists from the previous year Sydney by 89 points, in Sydney no less. We won the Grand Final that year by 46 points. How dominant did you want the Hawks to be?

If you want pure numbers, the best 5 game block (on percentage) leading up to a Premiership in the past 20 years belongs to Richmond in 2017. Before that, Hawthorn in 2008.

 

[Towmotar]

Hawthorn in 2015 won their games by an average of 60 points. We didn't win a game by less than 10.

That included two consecutive weeks where we beat top of the table Fremantle by 72 points, and grand finalists from the previous year Sydney by 89 points, in Sydney no less. We won the Grand Final that year by 46 points. How dominant did you want the Hawks to be?

If you want pure numbers, the best 5 game block (on percentage) leading up to a Premiership in the past 20 years belongs to Richmond in 2017. Before that, Hawthorn in 2008.

Slam dunk

 

[MinerBoy]

Interesting post. It begins by being relevant (sort of) and discussing Geelong's draw but it then somehow descends into a comment on Hawthorns 3Peat 'looking better than it was'. The rational being we had favourable umpiring in all our prelims against interstate sides, FYI - the frees were even in 13, we lost them in 14 and played Freo in Perth in 15 (hardly favourable to visiting teams). I particularly enjoy you slipping in a comment about the 2013 prelim, I understand that one really stings but you gotta let it go dude. I'm surprised you haven't mentioned '08 to be honest (that one probably still really stings too I'd imagine).
You then finish your rant with the brilliant insight that all our GF opponents 'had a bad day'. Enough said. Brilliant.

Whiskers head space is a trip when it concerns the Hawks.

It's glorious.

 

[MinerBoy]

You then finish your rant with the brilliant insight that all our GF opponents 'had a bad day'. Enough said. Brilliant.

Amazing how many teams had bad day against us.

 

[Hawkk]

One single moment changes 3 in a row. If port get a crucial decision go their way you’re suddenly not great?
One of the most minor things go another way through no fault of your own and suddenly people don’t rate you that highly.
Flawed logic, yet accepted.
From the PF of 12 all the way to the PF of 14, not once in that time of 5 crucial finals, did I go wow what a great side. 14 GF was the 1st time I was actually impressed but geez you rode ya luck getting there more so than a true great side would.
It’s ok having tough games here and there but never putting away mediocre interstate sides or a depleted Geelong one means I’m not convinced.
Our era at least had other very good sides whilst the Lions from 01-04 were more dominant more often.

I know you’ll never admit to Geelong being better but Brisbane were so far superior than hawks in every way, yet most of you genuinely believe hawks to be the best.
Luck played almost no part for them. They even had to play home finals away.
Essendon in ‘01 and Port Adelaide were bloody good teams back than also.

And Collingwood 2002 and 2003?

The Pies even jagged a win in a home Qualifying Final (which was eerily similar to the 2015 Qualifying Final)

Of course Hawthorn has 2008 which is the decider (thanks 23-1 Geelong )

 

[My Tilly]

HAHA mate I think you need to console yourself with this sort of thinking it is you who can't bear the alternative. In 2007 you were a kick away from not making a grand final and in 2009 a toe poke and a bounce away from losing one. Lets not forget the Hawkins poster that was called a goal. What IFs are for losers I have seen plenty of What ifs in my life time. That's why that Eminem song is so bloody good you only get one shot

Geelong led at every change in the 07 PF and had more scoring shots so the better team prevailed on the day and the following week was proof enough.
09, Geelong won by 2 goals and I agree, Hawkins hit the post but let's not forgot the umpire awarding St Kilda a fifty metre penalty right before halftime because Darren Milburn put up two fingers in the direction of the protected species. A free kick in a grand final has never been paid for such an act and it never has since. Saints got a freebie and we got a lucky one so it evened out.

Geelong, Brisbane, Hawthorn, they were three of the greatest teams of the modern era and I doubt we ever see such domination ever again.

 

[Whiskers]

Haha I sense a lot of insecurity around here.
Man you would think such a great side wouldn’t need to defend themselves so much but here we are.

 

[Whiskers]

Geelong led at every change in the 07 PF and had more scoring shots so the better team prevailed on the day and the following week was proof enough.
09, Geelong won by 2 goals and I agree, Hawkins hit the post but let's not forgot the umpire awarding St Kilda a fifty metre penalty right before halftime because Darren Milburn put up two fingers in the direction of the protected species. A free kick in a grand final has never been paid for such an act and it never has since. Saints got a freebie and we got a lucky one so it evened out.

Geelong, Brisbane, Hawthorn, they were three of the greatest teams of the modern era and I doubt we ever see such domination ever again.

Correct, a great side who dominated but ironically Hawks did ruin a potential 3peat and I would rather their overall record. (Notice how I say this yet their jealousy and anger over other comments comes through, amusing stuff)

Saints and Pies were other very talented teams, there wasn’t much in 2012-15, at their best those sides were better than the hawks as 09, 10 and 11 shows. Essentially the same side as the 3peat ones. It’s just hawthorn maintained it once the actual great sides were done which of course is fantastic by the hawks.

 

[hawkman]

Correct, a great side who dominated but ironically Hawks did ruin a potential 3peat and I would rather their overall record. (Notice how I say this yet their jealousy and anger over other comments comes through, amusing stuff)

Saints and Pies were other very talented teams, there wasn’t much in 2012-15, at their best those sides were better than the hawks as 09, 10 and 11 shows. Essentially the same side as the 3peat ones. It’s just hawthorn maintained it once the actual great sides were done which of course is fantastic by the hawks.

During 09, 10 and 11 Hawthorn turned over half their list. The Hawthorn team of those times wouldn't have got within 8 goals of the 12-15 teams

 

[TheFourPillars]

Geelong led at every change in the 07 PF and had more scoring shots so the better team prevailed on the day and the following week was proof enough.
09, Geelong won by 2 goals and I agree, Hawkins hit the post but let's not forgot the umpire awarding St Kilda a fifty metre penalty right before halftime because Darren Milburn put up two fingers in the direction of the protected species. A free kick in a grand final has never been paid for such an act and it never has since. Saints got a freebie and we got a lucky one so it evened out.

Geelong, Brisbane, Hawthorn, they were three of the greatest teams of the modern era and I doubt we ever see such domination ever again.

It all evens out in the end I don't believe in free kicks affecting games and umpiring decisions you take the good with the bad we had some bad decisions and we continue to do so but we also get calls going our way. The crux of the matter is Whiskers believes its luck and What IF scenarios and they only apply to Hawthorn and no one else. What I was doing was demonstrating to him that every team has that its not exclusive

 

[Pessimistic]

Are you trying to play down Dangerfield? What’s your angle here?
Do you think he isn’t good as he does not have a flag?

Its not so much a knock on danger, more the people throwing the legend tag around

 

[Pessimistic]

One single moment changes 3 in a row. If port get a crucial decision go their way you’re suddenly not great?
One of the most minor things go another way through no fault of your own and suddenly people don’t rate you that highly.
Flawed logic, yet accepted.
From the PF of 12 all the way to the PF of 14, not once in that time of 5 crucial finals, did I go wow what a great side. 14 GF was the 1st time I was actually impressed but geez you rode ya luck getting there more so than a true great side would.
It’s ok having tough games here and there but never putting away mediocre interstate sides or a depleted Geelong one means I’m not convinced.
Our era at least had other very good sides whilst the Lions from 01-04 were more dominant more often.

I know you’ll never admit to Geelong being better but Brisbane were so far superior than hawks in every way, yet most of you genuinely believe hawks to be the best.
Luck played almost no part for them. They even had to play home finals away.
Essendon in ‘01 and Port Adelaide were bloody good teams back than also.

Even brisbane had a couple of ‘moments’ that you speak of. But they did not choke. plenty of teams in history have choked the b2b2b. The eighties hawks one of them.

Would they rate with you? Theres a very famous slice of luck in the 1988 prelim. No doubt theres arguments those teams are better. They may be. But the 13-15 hawks did not choke. Thats the achievement

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Ah, whiskers. Never ceases to entertain.

 

[MinerBoy]

Haha I sense a lot of insecurity around here.
Man you would think such a great side wouldn’t need to defend themselves so much but here we are.

lol I think the irony in this post will be lost on you


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