AFL Canberra Div 3, div 4 (Canb Dist) Part 2

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There were a few suspensions after the ADFA Belco games on the weekend - anyone care to elaborate?

I found it funny the ADFA snipers from the first time we played them were both suspended for 2 and 3 weeks.
 
Had to be - of our list of 40ish players, we were phoning around on Saturday getting a 21st and 22nd player for the Blues.

I can understand why Yass might struggle for numbers...

FWIW

From reading the explanations, I believe Goulburn were disrespectful towards the kid for playing him Saturday then expecting to back up Sunday.

Anyone selected for the Swans should treat it as an honour, and the clubs should stand them down from duties for that week.

Heywood - where do you see the player depth and numbers coming for next year? With all due respect, many of your playing list are my age (old) and on their way down, not up. Where do you see you getting the core of 18-25 year olds to form the basis of your Ressies side, or is it a 5 year plan to get the current 16-18 year olds up to that required level of size and experience?

GF, I agree with you about this Goulburn kid. Massive clanger by Goulburn. They've shown a fair bit of disrespect towards the Sydney Ressies! How would they have explained it to Sydney if the kid copped an injury playing for Goulbs the day before?!?!? Unless, of course, they'd cleared it with Sydney first. Nothing against the kid though, big pat on the back for the young fella.

Now, on to your question about the Jets. It's a very good question so I've gone to the club for the official word on all this. Excuse the essay but here goes...

We will be taking a long term development approach to our Div 2 team so that by the time our U18 team matures in 2 years time that we have a vibrant three team structure above it so we are able to offer a football pathway to those young players. We currently have a number of players, both "young" and "old" at our club who have the ability to play at a higher level, and added to these are some, who with encouragement and positive coaching, would be able to develop further.

We will be in the market to recruit players to bolster our list in 2010. The number of current and former players and coaches who live in the Gungahlin area who play or have played/coached for other clubs at either Div 2 or Div 3 level is quite high - hopefully the attraction of becoming involved at Div 2 level with their local club, which has not previously been available, will be an attraction to some of these people. We will be advertising in the local press at some stage in the near future in an attempt to attract a coach and 10+ players next year to assist in the development of our entire club.

The club has no goal on the horizon to play Division 1 football anytime in the foreseeable future and this would not even be looked at in a planning sense until it had fully established a successful structure and was able to acquire significant corporate support.
 
I found it funny the ADFA snipers from the first time we played them were both suspended for 2 and 3 weeks.[/quote said:
They got two guys pinged in one game? I wonder how much was going on if even the umpies managed to see a couple of reportable incidents?
 

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They got two guys pinged in one game? I wonder how much was going on if even the umpies managed to see a couple of reportable incidents?

I played in that match and it was actually a "clean" game until a few incidents in the third quarter. I wont tell tales about the fights (and to be honest I was on the other side of the ground when the main fights broke out) but the tribunal decisions seem fair. After three quarter time the game was played in the right spirit again.
One issue that p!ssed me off was the supporters standing right on the boundary line (yep, toes on the chalk). They were drunk and at times quite humerous in sledging us (I have no problems with banter), but I thought it was unsafe to stand as close as they were, especially when one of the fights ended up being surrounded by the ADFA supporters, and one of our players landed on a parked car.
Any chance clubs can take responsibility for ther supporters and make sure there is a safe "zone" around the ground (including trainers/coaches/runners)???

As for 3GM, I wouldnt want him if swapped for a stale bottle of p!ss (and given my track record that is saying something). Oh, and he needs a pillow - something to bite on.....
 
I know it,s only early days but after 6 rounds who would have thought that from last years grand final teams not one of them in either grade would currently not be in the top 4.
Goulburn apparantly have ten out this weekend against the hoggs and then have the double bye rounds 8 and 9, I would like to be playing them in round 10.
Im told that yass are finally at full strength this week so expect to see a huge improvement.
Good luck to all.
Div 3
Uni
Jets
Hoggs
Rams
Pies
Div 4
Uni
Jets
Swans
Roos
Pies
Heywood let me know when the sponsor ship packages come out id certainly be interested .
 
Goulburn apparantly have ten out this weekend against the hoggs

Where did you hear this from southcab? I've heard that they are pretty much full strength. Not that my source is all that reliable :D

I've managed to watch a few of the hoggs games and have some old friends playing, and have heard there are quite a few handy players back for the twos this week. Anyone from the hoggs here to confirm? Do they think they're a chance? I didn't get to see the coota game, but it looked pretty close, so i wouldn't think they'd have a shot against the swans.

It's be nice to see a bit more talk about the sides other than yass and gouburn on here!!! :D
 
Where did you hear this from southcab? I've heard that they are pretty much full strength. Not that my source is all that reliable :D

I've managed to watch a few of the hoggs games and have some old friends playing, and have heard there are quite a few handy players back for the twos this week. Anyone from the hoggs here to confirm? Do they think they're a chance? I didn't get to see the coota game, but it looked pretty close, so i wouldn't think they'd have a shot against the swans.

It's be nice to see a bit more talk about the sides other than yass and gouburn on here!!! :D
FlipFoot i agree it would be nice to see more talk about other teams as well.
The information re goulburn being uner done is straight of there web site and if the team picked is correct than they are indeed short this week infact the club secratary is on the bench.There are no armstrongs listed this week either.
This looks like the best chance any side has had to beat the swans !!!
 
FlipFoot i agree it would be nice to see more talk about other teams as well.
The information re goulburn being uner done is straight of there web site and if the team picked is correct than they are indeed short this week infact the club secratary is on the bench.There are no armstrongs listed this week either.
This looks like the best chance any side has had to beat the swans !!!

Wow that's a good sign for Harman, which by the very little information i have on them, could possibly be the best side they've feilded all year. I really hope it's closer than the Yass/Goulburn game. WHat a let down that was. I might be a bit close to Harman, but from my perspective, they have a very impressive div 4 side, but can't seem to live up to the hype.

I'm getting to see less and less of the footy lately because of my work, but from the games i've seen they looked pretty impressive in patches.

Anyone from Harman care to give some info for the weekend?

And is it just me or is it more exciting watching Div3/4 than watching the Div1/2 this year? Not really getting that excited about the top grades.

Thoughts?
 
It's be nice to see a bit more talk about the sides other than yass and gouburn on here!!! :D

Do the umpires count as a side to talk about?

I've been surprised by the lack of comment recently about umpiring and rule changes - which from an umpire's perspective must be a good thing. We usually only get spoken about when things go wrong.

I'd be happy to respond to any questions or comments people might have about umpiring and current interpretations.

I'm not sure who 3GM is but I did a couple of Belconnen games recently in Div 4 (against Goulburn) and Div 3 (against ANU). I was half expecting some light hearted banter from 3GM on here to critique my performances.

If anyone's interested in making $70 for a couple of hours excercise, the Umpires Assoc is still recruiting for umpires for the Women's comp. They could do with a couple more. It's a good way to see the game from a different perspective.

I played 20 seasons of Div 1 and Div 2 footy and wish I had of given umpiring a go somewhere in the middle of my career. I think the things you learn when umpiring (running, positioning etc) might have made me a better player.

Anyway, happy to answer any questions or cop the brunt of anyone wanting to vent some anger.
 
Hi Michael

I have some genuine questions that you might be able to help with, mainly to do with the ruck contest.

In the centre square what is the go if one ruckman runs in past the centre and then turns his back on the other ruckman causing the opposing ruckman to plough into his back? Especially if the guy going at the ball has his eyes on the ball. I have done both at different points and had free kicks given against me doing each (I thought I may be able to sneak a free kick for myself but it didn't work).

The other is with ball ups around the ground. Do the ruckmen have to come in from opposing sides? Or can you can come in from the same side and wrestle for position? I have asked the umpies this a couple of times and got different responses.

Cheers
 
Do the umpires count as a side to talk about?

I've been surprised by the lack of comment recently about umpiring and rule changes - which from an umpire's perspective must be a good thing. We usually only get spoken about when things go wrong.

I'd be happy to respond to any questions or comments people might have about umpiring and current interpretations.

I'm not sure who 3GM is but I did a couple of Belconnen games recently in Div 4 (against Goulburn) and Div 3 (against ANU). I was half expecting some light hearted banter from 3GM on here to critique my performances.

If anyone's interested in making $70 for a couple of hours excercise, the Umpires Assoc is still recruiting for umpires for the Women's comp. They could do with a couple more. It's a good way to see the game from a different perspective.

I played 20 seasons of Div 1 and Div 2 footy and wish I had of given umpiring a go somewhere in the middle of my career. I think the things you learn when umpiring (running, positioning etc) might have made me a better player.

Anyway, happy to answer any questions or cop the brunt of anyone wanting to vent some anger.

Honestly I think some have been a little down with consistency from last year.
Well consistent but the calls they are consistent with are absolutely disgraceful at times.

I also think they have been a little to tight on hands in the back rule, and they need to get a blanket decision across all umpires as to whether they are going to penalise for swearing or not. Some umpires let it go others pay it straight away even if it is just a "s**t" after a crap kick. You can read mouths on the TV with AFL players dropping the F bomb and not getting penalised so why pay it in Div 4?


Overall I think you cannot expect to much in Div 3 & 4. I don't think they get paid enough to cop the crap they do at times.
Atleast they are out giving it a crack so people can play the game :thumbsu:
 
Hi Michael

I have some genuine questions that you might be able to help with, mainly to do with the ruck contest.

In the centre square what is the go if one ruckman runs in past the centre and then turns his back on the other ruckman causing the opposing ruckman to plough into his back? Especially if the guy going at the ball has his eyes on the ball. I have done both at different points and had free kicks given against me doing each (I thought I may be able to sneak a free kick for myself but it didn't work).

The other is with ball ups around the ground. Do the ruckmen have to come in from opposing sides? Or can you can come in from the same side and wrestle for position? I have asked the umpies this a couple of times and got different responses.

Cheers

Hey Big Daddy, excellent questions.

It's difficult for me to make a judgement on a particular instance without having seen or been involved in it. But in general, as well as the actual laws of the game that govern things like high contact, push in the back etc there's an overarching set of guidelines for umpires to consider called the "Spirit of the Laws".

In relation to ruck contests the spirit of the laws state "the player whose sole objective is to contest the ruck shall be permitted to do so".

In your example where a ruckman goes past the centre line (and presumably beyond the path where the ball is going to drop) it is highly likey that his intention is to impede the other ruckman from the contest by blocking or shepherding him. Anything that stops an opponent from having a fair contest (eg a block, a push, a hand in the chest, a hold etc) is likely to give a free kick away.

If you cannon into someones back when they aren't impeding you in any way from being able to make a contest, then you'll give a free kick away. The umpire will have to make a judgement as to whether the guy who copped it in the back was blocking (and should be penalised) or has simply turned in the contest and been contacted in the back (and should get a free kick).

A defining factor in the sprit of the laws is that "Where there is incidental contact in a ruck contest when the ball is the sole objective (eyes on the ball), play on will result".

In short, it comes down to a split second judgment call in which the umpire has to weigh up the spirit of the law, the law itself, whether the contact was incidental, whether contact was intentional, whether contact was illegal and then make a decision.

With ball ups around the ground, no the ruckmen don't have to come in from opposing sides. The spirit of the laws above still applies (ie "the player whose sole objective is to contest the ruck shall be permitted to do so") so any blocks, shepherds, holds etc might give away a free kick.

Each year the AFL produces a DVD to explain new rules or to refresh people on existing ones. It's well worth a look. This year there was a section particularly on ruck contests and you can view it on the AFL website. You can also access the flyer on the spirit of the laws. See: http://www.afl.com.au/*****/aflfocu...stralianfootball2009/tabid/13956/default.aspx (Sorry this site won't let me paste the URL for some reason so you'll have to go to the AFL site, then into "Development" from the main navigation, then "AFL Explained", then "Laws of the Game"

Hope this helps. Good luck in the middle on the weekend.

Michael
 

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Do the umpires count as a side to talk about?

I've been surprised by the lack of comment recently about umpiring and rule changes - which from an umpire's perspective must be a good thing. We usually only get spoken about when things go wrong.

I'd be happy to respond to any questions or comments people might have about umpiring and current interpretations.

I'm not sure who 3GM is but I did a couple of Belconnen games recently in Div 4 (against Goulburn) and Div 3 (against ANU). I was half expecting some light hearted banter from 3GM on here to critique my performances.

If anyone's interested in making $70 for a couple of hours excercise, the Umpires Assoc is still recruiting for umpires for the Women's comp. They could do with a couple more. It's a good way to see the game from a different perspective.

I played 20 seasons of Div 1 and Div 2 footy and wish I had of given umpiring a go somewhere in the middle of my career. I think the things you learn when umpiring (running, positioning etc) might have made me a better player.

Anyway, happy to answer any questions or cop the brunt of anyone wanting to vent some anger.

Gois, the fact you ran the Goulburn game by yourself was pretty impressive. No point sledging you when you're doing it by yourself. Might need to get your hearing checked before paying those 50's in the future though!!
 
Michael

I wrote a magnificent response to your question earlier today, then forgot to click post and now its just a memory. So here is a poor Part 2 attempt.

There are some great umpires out there, and some very very poor ones. The Belco vs Woden night match had the quickest umpires I have ever played under - it was tiggy touchwood but consistant all night so you learned not to sneeze the wrong way for fear of giving away a free.

Since then we have had some fairly good and a couple of very ordinary umps, but you expect that in Div 3 and 4. However, you would also expect the umpires to know the rules. Some of the decisions I have seen this year have been exceptionally poor, and a harsher judge than I would suggest that the umpire making the decision was not aware of the rules of the game.

On a positive side, we have had 2 field umpires at each game and only one or two games without boundaries. The umps are protecting the man well this year, but holding the ball is inconsistant between officials in a game, let alone a series of matches.

Good luck this weekend.
 
Michael

I wrote a magnificent response to your question earlier today, then forgot to click post and now its just a memory. So here is a poor Part 2 attempt.

There are some great umpires out there, and some very very poor ones. The Belco vs Woden night match had the quickest umpires I have ever played under - it was tiggy touchwood but consistant all night so you learned not to sneeze the wrong way for fear of giving away a free.

Since then we have had some fairly good and a couple of very ordinary umps, but you expect that in Div 3 and 4. However, you would also expect the umpires to know the rules. Some of the decisions I have seen this year have been exceptionally poor, and a harsher judge than I would suggest that the umpire making the decision was not aware of the rules of the game.

On a positive side, we have had 2 field umpires at each game and only one or two games without boundaries. The umps are protecting the man well this year, but holding the ball is inconsistant between officials in a game, let alone a series of matches.

Good luck this weekend.

Hey Ferret,

I too played in the night match - obviously those umps forgot to watch the "spirit of the laws" DVD, and the "let them play footy" rule. But I agree that consistency is very important. Gois, you umpired well when we (BMFC) played ANU, and it shows that ex players (or at least recently retired players) make good umpires.
I find it interesting that last week an ADFA player gets reported for charging a BMFC player after the BMFC player has taken a mark. Not being involved in the actual marking contest, I would like to know why a 50m penalty was not awarded???? For the record the player was found guilty at the tribunal and given a 2 week suspension.
A few BMFC players have put their hands up to umpire recently to help out with the numbers, I hope other clubs consider it.
Good luck to Talla - plays his 100th game in Div 3 on sunday against Tuggers, the Pies are hopnig to get their season back on track. If we lose this one, finals action will be close to out of reach...
 
....and they need to get a blanket decision across all umpires as to whether they are going to penalise for swearing or not. Some umpires let it go others pay it straight away even if it is just a "s**t" after a crap kick. You can read mouths on the TV with AFL players dropping the F bomb and not getting penalised so why pay it in Div 4?

Hey Longhaul,
Swearing is a tough one. I probably cause my umpiring partners a bit of grief by letting players get away with a bit too much. That makes it hard for my partner to have to drop back to my standards. Technically (and I don't want to sound like a nerd by quoting paragraph and section from the laws) but under Law 19.2.2 (m) using abusive, insulting, threatening or obscene language is a reportable offence for which a free kick should also be given (Law 15.8 (a)).

That being said, I think I've only payed a couple of free kicks for swareing over the past few years. One was last year when a frustrated player called me a d***head in dispute of a decision. Personally I didn't care about the d***head call, but I had no choice but to ping him a 50m penalty more for demonstrably disputing the decision. Another was only a couple of weeks ago when I made a call then heard a player says "oh, get off the ground you c***". I payed a 50 but in hindsight probably agree with the player when he claimed he was talking to one of his own players and not me. As I said to him, either way it was obscene language and had to be penalised.

As someone who only retired not too recently I still have empathy for players and understand the frustration that can creep in. I usually prefer to have a quiet word to a player behind play just to give them a warning about swearing. That usually stops it without me having to impose myself too much on the game by awarding a free kick.

Good luck for the weekend and try to remember there's usually mums, wives, girlfriends and kids on the boundary watching so it's best to keep the swearing under your breath.;)

Gois
 
Gois, the fact you ran the Goulburn game by yourself was pretty impressive. No point sledging you when you're doing it by yourself. Might need to get your hearing checked before paying those 50's in the future though!!

Hey 3GM,
If you were at Goulburn does that mean you're now 4GM? Thanks for the heads up on who you might be. Although at my age my memory is starting to fade so I can't quite recall you for sure.

Although I am getting older, fatter and slower I think my hearing is still pretty good. In the particular incident you refer to I clearly heard the call of "get off the ground you c***" and that deserved a 50m regardless of whether it was directed at me or someone else. The c-word is always going to get you in strife whether you're on a footy field, at work, at home or in public. The only times it's acceptable is when it's just you and three mates on a green with no-one around for hundreds of metres and you miss a two-foot putt!:) Or one of your mates sinks a fluke 30-footer for the cash!!!

Another umpire probably would have made a report - but for mine I think the 50m was enough. There certainly wasn't any more swearing after that.

Maybe I'll see you again some time.

Gois
 
...Gois, you umpired well when we (BMFC) played ANU, and it shows that ex players (or at least recently retired players) make good umpires....

Thanks for the feedback.

...I find it interesting that last week an ADFA player gets reported for charging a BMFC player after the BMFC player has taken a mark. Not being involved in the actual marking contest, I would like to know why a 50m penalty was not awarded????

It should have been a 50m penalty if the ADFA player wasn't in the contest. In the umpires' defence things can get pretty hectic when the game is heated and you're trying to gain control and make a report all while players want to fight. Perhaps it was just an oversight.

...A few BMFC players have put their hands up to umpire recently to help out with the numbers, I hope other clubs consider it.

Excellent! Should be more of it. It's great to have ex-players in the umpiring ranks. And if you have the time it's great to mix the two. Playing on a Saturday arvo gives you time to umpire on a Sunday or vice versa. There's plenty of young kids who play their Saturday mornings then earn their pocket money by running senior grade boundaries that arvo or the next day. Maybe some of those BMFC guys who've had a taste of umpiring might want to join us on a more regular basis, even if it's just to help out with the women's games and earn $70.

Good luck on your hunt for a finals spot.
 
Hey Longhaul,
Swearing is a tough one. I probably cause my umpiring partners a bit of grief by letting players get away with a bit too much. That makes it hard for my partner to have to drop back to my standards. Technically (and I don't want to sound like a nerd by quoting paragraph and section from the laws) but under Law 19.2.2 (m) using abusive, insulting, threatening or obscene language is a reportable offence for which a free kick should also be given (Law 15.8 (a)).



Good luck for the weekend and try to remember there's usually mums, wives, girlfriends and kids on the boundary watching so it's best to keep the swearing under your breath.;)

Gois

That is exactly what I mean, you are happy to let it slide whilst your partner would probably penalise it. If there is 2 umpires for the match is 1 of them the senior umpire? If so then he should state to his partner his intentions on swearing.
I think if a player swears at himself in frustraion after a bad kick or missed goal 20 out in front then just have a laugh and let it go.

Obviously if a player swears at you then hammer him for it with a 50m.

Also what is the rules for umpires and respect to players? I heard a few weeks ago an umpire paid a penalty against a player and said something along the lines of "penalty against this clown" Surely if a player must pay you due respect should it not be reciprocated? And if a player is not happy with this who is his first POC should he wish to "report" the umpire, if he can. Not like the umpire will be dropped back to U16's or anything.

.
 
Honestly I think some have been a little down with consistency from last year.
Well consistent but the calls they are consistent with are absolutely disgraceful at times.

I also think they have been a little to tight on hands in the back rule, and they need to get a blanket decision across all umpires as to whether they are going to penalise for swearing or not. Some umpires let it go others pay it straight away even if it is just a "s**t" after a crap kick. You can read mouths on the TV with AFL players dropping the F bomb and not getting penalised so why pay it in Div 4?


Overall I think you cannot expect to much in Div 3 & 4. I don't think they get paid enough to cop the crap they do at times.
Atleast they are out giving it a crack so people can play the game :thumbsu:
i think they should be tough on foul words in div 3 and 4 only because the crowds are small and close to the action and any f words can be easily heard, my 7 yr old daughter said after one game that player said the f word dad, i heard it. in afl they could scream it and the crowd would not here, as for shit and crap, they should be allowed, i got a 50 from the centre for saying these guys are crap, but that was at coota so thats understandable, we need to keep it as clean as possible in bush footy so the wives and families can feel safe bringing the kids, hence improving the crowds, "its a family game afterall"
 
That is exactly what I mean, you are happy to let it slide whilst your partner would probably penalise it. If there is 2 umpires for the match is 1 of them the senior umpire? If so then he should state to his partner his intentions on swearing.
I think if a player swears at himself in frustraion after a bad kick or missed goal 20 out in front then just have a laugh and let it go.

Obviously if a player swears at you then hammer him for it with a 50m.

Hey Longhaul,
Fair call on the inconsistency. I'm probably a main culprit for not being hard enough. As an umpire you are in a bit of a no win situation. If you let it slide, and have a quite word of warning behind play instead of paying a kick every time, you get accused of being too soft. If you pick up every instance you get accused of over officiating, paying ticky touchwood things and spoiling a game. Personally I'm happy with the way I go about it and agree with your comments about when to let it go and when to ping it.

Also what is the rules for umpires and respect to players? I heard a few weeks ago an umpire paid a penalty against a player and said something along the lines of "penalty against this clown" Surely if a player must pay you due respect should it not be reciprocated? And if a player is not happy with this who is his first POC should he wish to "report" the umpire, if he can. Not like the umpire will be dropped back to U16's or anything.

If that's true then that's innappropriate communication from the umpire. Most of us work very hard to earn the respect of players through the way we go about our business and the way we communicate. Not sure how you go about "reporting" an umpire but I'm sure your team manager knows who to lodge a complaint with. I'm pretty sure Kev Tingey, Umpire Development coach in the AFL Canberra office comes in Monday mornings to plenty of emails from clubs wanting clarification on things that have come up on the weekend.

Back when I was playing Div 1 I recall one of our grumpier players having a go at an umpire who fired back with "get a kick". It didn't help the situation at the time but gave the rest of us players within earshot a bit of a laugh back at the club that night.

As I'm learning this caper of umpiring it has become very clear to me that communication is one of the biggest issues.

Cheers,
Gois
 
After a match that was ruined by the officials today (leading to horrendous ill discipline and 8 50's in the final quarter), I won't discuss anything about the umps other than our quick straw poll after the match.

Ten blokes in the changeroom were asked who the best ump in CD's was - and the answer was former Belco player Alex. Knee bandage man is also well regarded among the boys for the same reason. Both don't look for free kicks, but allow football to play on.

They may not get it right 100%, but they call play on regularly and it allows the game to flow.
 
After a match that was ruined by the officials today (leading to horrendous ill discipline and 8 50's in the final quarter), I won't discuss anything about the umps other than our quick straw poll after the match.

Ten blokes in the changeroom were asked who the best ump in CD's was - and the answer was former Belco player Alex. Knee bandage man is also well regarded among the boys for the same reason. Both don't look for free kicks, but allow football to play on.

They may not get it right 100%, but they call play on regularly and it allows the game to flow.

Hey GF,
Sorry to hear that the game didn't go well. Nothing worse than not being able to put the game in the past and move on because there's things about the match you can't get out of your mind - whether it be the end result, your own performance, your team's performance, a particular incident or in this case how the game unfolded. (personally I was pretty hard to live with for the first few days of the week if we lost and I personally didn't play well).

The first two points in the umpires game plan are:
1 - pay all free kicks
2 - let them play

On the surface the two don't seem to go hand in hand. To one player a brush across the shoulder in a marking contest deserves a free kick, while to another player they might think there was nothing in it and that play should go on. The best umpires know when and how to apply the first two points of the game plan without conflicting with each other. It's a tough job but the best umpires have good game sense and know when a free kick is really worth paying. I guess that's why recently involved players can make good umpires.

If you are considering retiring any time soon yourself, why not consider giving it a crack. It's not as bad as you might think - although I'm sure in years to come, if I'm still doing it I'll be like a few of the older blokes around and be well and truly sick of the abuse and questioning of decisions.

I have to admit I don't think I know Alex, but he's had a couple of good wraps on here recently so he must be pretty good.

Gois
 
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