AFL coaches think Shane Edwards is a better footballer than Cyril Rioli

[blackcat]

Edwards is a Comodoore wagon. Somewhere boring, but but practical and reliable. Cyril was a super bike. Explosive and dangerous. If you want to go from A to B with no fuss, you buy the Commodoore. If you want thrills and excitement you get a bike. Just don’t expect to use it every day.

his hands were too quick, too quick in tight places to be recognised and acknowledged

just like Cyril's defensive threat (and perceived pressure) would create errors and turnovers by opposition - see: Richmond's swarming pressure in forward 50 from 2017-2020

basketball analogy:
akin to Steph Curry's ability to shift a defense with movement without the ball (+ RJ Hamilton)

 

[PetterdHoisted]

Look the norm smith is a thing for sure .

The issue with that is though that Cyril didn’t have to compete with Dustin Martin for norm smith votes

And as we all know Dustin Martin is the greatest ever grand final player in history .

So effectively , edwards only had a chance to compete for 50% of the votes available , this is because Dustin Martin always gets the three votes .

Edwards like everything else he has done in his career is a very underrated big game player . He did receive votes in both the 2017 and 2020 norm smith medal voting

was about to post the same actually, not really fair to criticise Sheds for not having a Normie

 

[Walshawk]

For you to write this dribble it confirms that you have never actually watched Shane Edwards

Its so wrong, its actually funny

I'll cop that. I have never really watched him or noticed him. Thanks for the education. Great player I am sure.

 

[blaisee]

I'll cop that. I have never really watched him or noticed him. Thanks for the education. Great player I am sure.

That's cool, even Richmond supporters at times have missed his impact.

He is the player that would go to the middle and get a clearance, or go up forward and snag a goal, or go down back and set up, whatever was required, clearly not at the Luke Hodge level ( I regard him as one of the greats) but similar.

He is also the most unassuming mercurial player I have ever seen, little taps, knock ons, blind handballs.

Honestly some of the things he has done on the ground are simply breathtaking.

He is the opposite of a commodore, he is like durable Ferrari

 

[PetterdHoisted]

in all seriousness, his bullet handballs through traffic to players running forward of the pack were insane, can't think of another player at his level in that regard

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Look the norm smith is a thing for sure .

The issue with that is though that Cyril didn’t have to compete with Dustin Martin for norm smith votes

And as we all know Dustin Martin is the greatest ever grand final player in history .

So effectively , edwards only had a chance to compete for 50% of the votes available , this is because Dustin Martin always gets the three votes .

Edwards like everything else he has done in his career is a very underrated big game player . He did receive votes in both the 2017 and 2020 norm smith medal voting

Firstly, focussing solely on the Norm Smith does not discount the other evidence presented (AA's, Brownlow votes, etc).

Secondly, Edwards did not come runner up in any Norm Smith so even with no Dusty, he still does not have a Normie (which makes Dusty's performances a moot point anyway).

Thirdly, Dusty is considered the best Grand Final player because he has played well enough to win 3 Norms, not because his performances are above that of other players to win the Norm Smith. IN fact, I would argue in some years it has been the opposite. Take 2017 for example...Dusty had a good game but was his performance better than other players winning the Norm in other years? I would say no. In fact, I would suggest that performances at the top that day were relatively even without a clear standout (for mine, Houli was the best but Dusty winning the Norm was the better story as it completed every available award that year and he was close enough to the best so why not?)

On that day, Dusty had 29 touches and kicked 2 goals - very good performance. Was it categorically better than Hodge's (who was a pretty handy finals player himself) 2014 performance where he had 35 and kicked 2? I would say probably not. Was it categorically better than Sam MItchell's back to back GF's in 2014 and 2015 (our best and most underrated finals performer) - Mitchell had 33, 7 clearances and 9 tackles in '14 and 33 dis, 6 clearances and 4 tackles in '15. I certainly wouldn't have Dusty's performance in 2017 as higher than Petracca last year, Black back in the day, etc.

Not that it matters anyway as Dusty is an amazing GF player (and deserves to be considered one of, if no the best of all time) and for the purposes of this thread, Edwards was never runner up anyway.

 

[YeOldTiger]

this is going to end well.

It ended pretty well.

 

[blaisee]

Firstly, focussing solely on the Norm Smith does not discount the other evidence presented (AA's, Brownlow votes, etc).

Secondly, Edwards did not come runner up in any Norm Smith so even with no Dusty, he still does not have a Normie (which makes Dusty's performances a moot point anyway).

Thirdly, Dusty is considered the best Grand Final player because he has played well enough to win 3 Norms, not because his performances are above that of other players to win the Norm Smith. IN fact, I would argue in some years it has been the opposite. Take 2017 for example...Dusty had a good game but was his performance better than other players winning the Norm in other years? I would say no. In fact, I would suggest that performances at the top that day were relatively even without a clear standout (for mine, Houli was the best but Dusty winning the Norm was the better story as it completed every available award that year and he was close enough to the best so why not?)

On that day, Dusty had 29 touches and kicked 2 goals - very good performance. Was it categorically better than Hodge's (who was a pretty handy finals player himself) 2014 performance where he had 35 and kicked 2? I would say probably not. Was it categorically better than Sam MItchell's back to back GF's in 2014 and 2015 (our best and most underrated finals performer) - Mitchell had 33, 7 clearances and 9 tackles in '14 and 33 dis, 6 clearances and 4 tackles in '15. I certainly wouldn't have Dusty's performance in 2017 as higher than Petracca last year, Black back in the day, etc.

Not that it matters anyway as Dusty is an amazing GF player (and deserves to be considered one of, if no the best of all time) and for the purposes of this thread, Edwards was never runner up anyway.

Look in my opinion, these media awards, norm smith, AA jumpers ect are largely irrelevant.

Its coaches votes that matter, and that was the OP at the end of the day, and it has been proven to be true.

On Dusty, forget about the Norm Smiths, what matters more is Gary Ayres medals, its the coaches votes for all finals played, and Dusty has 3, and he is also voted best on ground, by the coaches in all three of his grand finals, so to say Dusty was lucky to win the 2017 norm smith, is just garbage, it's incorrect, especially when you consider the opinion of the people that would know, the coaches

But back to Edwards v Cyril

I haven't done the exercise, but I would imagine that Edwards would eclipse Cyril on coaches votes for his career, quite easily.

Now you will come back with, well of course, he played in more games, well that's true, but you said Cyril has more norm smith votes, but Cyril played in more grand finals, so far, so you can't have it both ways.

They do say, that the best ability, is availability.

 

[blackcat]

I'll cop that. I have never really watched him or noticed him. Thanks for the education. Great player I am sure.

this 'may' be a negative* metric

the cloak of invisibility that Edwards stole from Harry Potter was indicative of his silent mastery folks never saw nor heard
*insofar as putative negative measure is actually a p.o.s.i.t.i.v.e. in the practical sense

like Cyril's lack of statistics on a closer nuanced interpretation could be assessed as a major positive defensive metric , Cyril does SOOOOO much without the ball , like Dusty Martin's lack of defensive metrics mean(for the unthinking analysis)* he is less of a player without appreciating Dusty/Cyril have scarce resources to invest in their speciality , specialties that just happen to be at the apogee of the all-time greats who ever played the game...

one extra posession stat and handball receive from Cyril(that anyone can receive, see:Cotchin'15) may translate to one less defensive act, tho' (in opposite) one defensive act from Dusty may accord to one less offensive possession in the fourth quarter in the forward 50 , but Dimma is right to approve Martin's calculus , just as Clarkson is right to approve Rioli's calculus .

*nb not saying Dusty's defensive metrics mean he is less of a player , just the opposite , see: Nobel Laureate Princeton mathematician John Nash Game Theory , invest one's scarce resources where they can be most profitable
**on the same account I am indeed invoking Cyril's defensive acts as a PREMIUM whereby you willingly forego an offensive acts(handball receive) because Rioli's defensive acts are so profitable

 

[hk89]

And as we all know Dustin Martin is the greatest ever grand final player in history .

Can you please link to the thread you undoubtedly started on this particular topic. I don't recall seeing it, but I'd be extremely surprised if you hadn't already created one, given your thread starting history. Once I'm done with the lols here, I'll head over.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Look in my opinion, these media awards, norm smith, AA jumpers ect are largely irrelevant.

Its coaches votes that matter, and that was the OP at the end of the day, and it has been proven to be true.

On Dusty, forget about the Norm Smiths, what matters more is Gary Ayres medals, its the coaches votes for all finals played, and Dusty has 3, and he is also voted best on ground, by the coaches in all three of his grand finals, so to say Dusty was lucky to win the 2017 norm smith, is just garbage, it's incorrect, especially when you consider the opinion of the people that would know, the coaches

But back to Edwards v Cyril

I haven't done the exercise, but I would imagine that Edwards would eclipse Cyril on coaches votes for his career, quite easily.

Now you will come back with, well of course, he played in more games, well that's true, but you said Cyril has more norm smith votes, but Cyril played in more grand finals, so far, so you can't have it both ways.

They do say, that the best ability, is availability.

I think you have misunderstood me a little. I am not saying Dusty didn't deserve anything (he did!). I am saying that him being the best finals player of all time has to do with the regularity with which he was best on - not that his 'best on' performances were so much better than other players adjudged to be 'best on' in other years. In other words (for the relevance of this thread), Dusty's presence in the side does not necessarily lift the standard required to win a Norm Smith beyond the standard required in other years. Ergo, it is no harder for Edwards to win a Norm Smith than for Cyril to do the same (it's just more likely that the player he has beat is going to be Dusty instead of Hodge, Mitchell, Petracca, etc).

As for Gary Ayers votes - yes, these are a helpful resource too (and further underscore Dusty's performances in finals). Unfortunately, they only started in 2016 so we have little historical context. For the purposes of this thread it has no relevance as Cyril played very few finals (and retired shortly after) this award was created. I personally find it a shame because as a Hawthorn supporter, I feel Sam Mitchell's finals performances are seriously underrated. He was runner up in the Norm Smith twice and voted our best finals player regularly through the three peat (best finals player from my club that I've seen) but there is no official recognition or measure to demonstrate this.

I don't think you truly believe awards are completely irrelevant as I've seen you use them regularly as an argument tool over the years.

Also, the coaches votes thing is so far just guesswork as you don't have the numbers. I do agree, however, that greater longevity is a credit to a player (acknowledging of course that Cyril left the game for race related reasons and not because he was no longer a top tier player) and acknowledged that first up in favour of Edwards.

It's far from the only factor though and doesn't in and of itself make a player better (just as Brent Harvey is not better than Dusty Martin).

I (and I believe most others, including the coaches) would say Cyril was a better, albeit different, player than Edwards.

But I'm not keen to take anything away from Edwards who was definately underrated for his ability to influence the contest from limited touches and to play key roles in big games, including finals (much like Cyril).

 

[hk89]

As for Gary Ayers votes - yes, these are a helpful resource too (and further underscore Dusty's performances in finals). Unfortunately, they only started in 2016 so we have little historical context.

Still, I think it is fair to say, Dusty is the best finals player we've ever seen since the Gary Ayers award began. If blaise hasn't already started a thread with that title, I'm sure one will be incoming.

 

[Cotchins Hair Piece]

One of the most underrated players of all time. Cyril is one of the most overrated.

 

[blackcat]

I think you have misunderstood me a little. I am not saying Dusty didn't deserve anything (he did!). I am saying that him being the best finals player of all time has to do with the regularity with which he was best on - not that his 'best on' performances were so much better than other players adjudged to be 'best on' in other years. In other words (for the relevance of this thread), Dusty's presence in the side does not necessarily lift the standard required to win a Norm Smith beyond the standard required in other years. Ergo, it is no harder for Edwards to win a Norm Smith than for Cyril to do the same (it's just more likely that the player he has beat is going to be Dusty instead of Hodge, Mitchell, Petracca, etc).

As for Gary Ayers votes - yes, these are a helpful resource too (and further underscore Dusty's performances in finals). Unfortunately, they only started in 2016 so we have little historical context. For the purposes of this thread it has no relevance as Cyril played very few finals (and retired shortly after) this award was created. I personally find it a shame because as a Hawthorn supporter, I feel Sam Mitchell's finals performances are seriously underrated. He was runner up in the Norm Smith twice and voted our best finals player regularly through the three peat (best finals player from my club that I've seen) but there is no official recognition or measure to demonstrate this.

I don't think you truly believe awards are completely irrelevant as I've seen you use them regularly as an argument tool over the years.

Also, the coaches votes thing is so far just guesswork as you don't have the numbers. I do agree, however, that greater longevity is a credit to a player (acknowledging of course that Cyril left the game for race related reasons and not because he was no longer a top tier player) and acknowledged that first up in favour of Edwards.

It's far from the only factor though and doesn't in and of itself make a player better (just as Brent Harvey is not better than Dusty Martin).

I (and I believe most others, including the coaches) would say Cyril was a better, albeit different, player than Edwards.

But I'm not keen to take anything away from Edwards who was definately underrated for his ability to influence the contest from limited touches and to play key roles in big games, including finals (much like Cyril).

the best lift their game , Hodge Bartel Dusty Brereton Ayres , that said Buddy is the best(EVER) even (though) being a mediocre pack mark , no one in 2000 decade could shift a game like Buddy

 

[blackcat]

the quick and the dead

fastest hands in the west

 

[blackcat]

I think you have misunderstood me a little. I am not saying Dusty didn't deserve anything (he did!). I am saying that him being the best finals player of all time has to do with the regularity with which he was best on - not that his 'best on' performances were so much better than other players adjudged to be 'best on' in other years. In other words (for the relevance of this thread), Dusty's presence in the side does not necessarily lift the standard required to win a Norm Smith beyond the standard required in other years. Ergo, it is no harder for Edwards to win a Norm Smith than for Cyril to do the same (it's just more likely that the player he has beat is going to be Dusty instead of Hodge, Mitchell, Petracca, etc).

As for Gary Ayers votes - yes, these are a helpful resource too (and further underscore Dusty's performances in finals). Unfortunately, they only started in 2016 so we have little historical context. For the purposes of this thread it has no relevance as Cyril played very few finals (and retired shortly after) this award was created. I personally find it a shame because as a Hawthorn supporter, I feel Sam Mitchell's finals performances are seriously underrated. He was runner up in the Norm Smith twice and voted our best finals player regularly through the three peat (best finals player from my club that I've seen) but there is no official recognition or measure to demonstrate this.

I don't think you truly believe awards are completely irrelevant as I've seen you use them regularly as an argument tool over the years.

Also, the coaches votes thing is so far just guesswork as you don't have the numbers. I do agree, however, that greater longevity is a credit to a player (acknowledging of course that Cyril left the game for race related reasons and not because he was no longer a top tier player) and acknowledged that first up in favour of Edwards.

It's far from the only factor though and doesn't in and of itself make a player better (just as Brent Harvey is not better than Dusty Martin).

I (and I believe most others, including the coaches) would say Cyril was a better, albeit different, player than Edwards.

But I'm not keen to take anything away from Edwards who was definately underrated for his ability to influence the contest from limited touches and to play key roles in big games, including finals (much like Cyril).

also when Dusty wins Brownlow the experts who vote on Norm Smith were willing dupes to buy the narrative

 

[blackcat]

That's cool, even Richmond supporters at times have missed his impact.

He is the player that would go to the middle and get a clearance, or go up forward and snag a goal, or go down back and set up, whatever was required, clearly not at the Luke Hodge level ( I regard him as one of the greats) but similar.

He is also the most unassuming mercurial player I have ever seen, little taps, knock ons, blind handballs.

Honestly some of the things he has done on the ground are simply breathtaking.

He is the opposite of a commodore, he is like durable Ferrari

Bartel Hodge Edwards*

as you said , just behind those others , but all had massive influences in the moment(s)

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

One of the most underrated players of all time. Cyril is one of the most overrated.

It's become the opposite. Cyril is one of the best small forwards of all time but is never treated as such. Shame he retired so soon.

 

[Jables]

Disrespectful to Edwards to bring this up again, I don't even care about comparing bullshit like All Australians (Burgoyne only has 1 and he's a champion), they aren't on the same level. They aren't even similar players and as with all the Cyril comparisons that went on back in the day, specific fans of the player being compared are the only ones interested in this discussion.

 

[blaisee]

I think you have misunderstood me a little. I am not saying Dusty didn't deserve anything (he did!). I am saying that him being the best finals player of all time has to do with the regularity with which he was best on - not that his 'best on' performances were so much better than other players adjudged to be 'best on' in other years. In other words (for the relevance of this thread), Dusty's presence in the side does not necessarily lift the standard required to win a Norm Smith beyond the standard required in other years. Ergo, it is no harder for Edwards to win a Norm Smith than for Cyril to do the same (it's just more likely that the player he has beat is going to be Dusty instead of Hodge, Mitchell, Petracca, etc).

As for Gary Ayers votes - yes, these are a helpful resource too (and further underscore Dusty's performances in finals). Unfortunately, they only started in 2016 so we have little historical context. For the purposes of this thread it has no relevance as Cyril played very few finals (and retired shortly after) this award was created. I personally find it a shame because as a Hawthorn supporter, I feel Sam Mitchell's finals performances are seriously underrated. He was runner up in the Norm Smith twice and voted our best finals player regularly through the three peat (best finals player from my club that I've seen) but there is no official recognition or measure to demonstrate this.

I don't think you truly believe awards are completely irrelevant as I've seen you use them regularly as an argument tool over the years.

Also, the coaches votes thing is so far just guesswork as you don't have the numbers. I do agree, however, that greater longevity is a credit to a player (acknowledging of course that Cyril left the game for race related reasons and not because he was no longer a top tier player) and acknowledged that first up in favour of Edwards.

It's far from the only factor though and doesn't in and of itself make a player better (just as Brent Harvey is not better than Dusty Martin).

I (and I believe most others, including the coaches) would say Cyril was a better, albeit different, player than Edwards.

But I'm not keen to take anything away from Edwards who was definately underrated for his ability to influence the contest from limited touches and to play key roles in big games, including finals (much like Cyril).

You have to do a lot of mental gymnastics work back from saying Dusty was best on ground, but his best on ground was not really that great when compared to other norm smith medalists.

Lets just talk about the year you mentioned 2017, and compare that performance to what Cyril did in 2015.

I am being very generous to you by the way by picking Dusty's 2017 norm smith, because as you know Dusty has 3, and as you would know, his other two norm smiths were even better statistically, but in any case

In 2015 Cyril managed 2 gls, 18 poss, 4 GA, 11 SI, and 6 CP, 1 clr, 3 i50s
In 2017 Dusty managed 2 gls 29 poss 2 GA, 9 SI, and 22 CP, 6 clr. 3 i50s

Cyril ain't winning the Norm smith over Dusty if he played in 2017, I will give you the tip.

Interestingly though you may want to know what Edwards did in the 2017 granny

In 2017 Edwards managed 0 gls, 25 poss, 2 GA, 10 SI, 13 CP, 7 clr, 8 i50s

In the 2017 Grand Final Shane Edwards was the best or equal best player on the ground in the following key stats

clearances,
goal assists,
score involvements,
inside 50s,
and third most contested possessions of anyone on the ground

Not saying his game was better than Cyril in 2015, but its close, much closer than people give him credit for

Saying Cyril is better than Edwards because he was better in grand finals is not accurate, its a myth propogated by the uninformed.

Edwards never played a stinker in a grand final like Cyril did in the 2014 Grand Final either, don't make me pull out the stats cause I will.

 

[blaisee]

Disrespectful to Edwards to bring this up again, I don't even care about comparing bullshit like All Australians (Burgoyne only has 1 and he's a champion), they aren't on the same level. They aren't even similar players and as with all the Cyril comparisons that went on back in the day, specific fans of the player being compared are the only ones interested in this discussion.

Of course you don't want it brought up, it blows up a myth because its backed up with facts that go against your narrative.

 

[Captain_Bender]

You have to do a lot of mental gymnastics work back from saying Dusty was best on ground, but his best on ground was not really that great when compared to other norm smith medalists.

Lets just talk about the year you mentioned 2017, and compare that performance to what Cyril did in 2015.

I am being very generous to you by the way by picking Dusty's 2017 norm smith, because as you know Dusty has 3, and as you would know, his other two norm smiths were even better statistically, but in any case

In 2015 Cyril managed 2 gls, 18 poss, 4 GA, 11 SI, and 6 CP, 1 clr, 3 i50s
In 2017 Dusty managed 2 gls 29 poss 2 GA, 9 SI, and 22 CP, 6 clr. 3 i50s

Cyril ain't winning the Norm smith over Dusty if he played in 2017, I will give you the tip.

Interestingly though you may want to know what Edwards did in the 2017 granny

In 2017 Edwards managed 0 gls, 25 poss, 2 GA, 10 SI, 13 CP, 7 clr, 8 i50s

In the 2017 Grand Final Shane Edwards was the best or equal best player on the ground in the following key stats

clearances,
goal assists,
score involvements,
inside 50s,
and third most contested possessions of anyone on the ground

Not saying his game was better than Cyril in 2015, but its close, much closer than people give him credit for

Saying Cyril is better than Edwards because he was better in grand finals is not accurate, its a myth propogated by the uninformed.

Edwards never played a stinker in a grand final like Cyril did in the 2014 Grand Final either, don't make me pull out the stats cause I will.

Edwards was good in all grand finals his played, Cyril was great in 2015 and decent in 2008 was pretty average in all the other grand finals he played in

 

[hk89]

Edwards was good in all grand finals his played, Cyril was great in 2015 and decent in 2008 was pretty average in all the other grand finals he played in

Rioli was more a small forward than a mid though. Grand finals are a well known graveyard for small forwards. How many have won the Norm Smith as a small forward? Stevie J got one, but I'd say he was a mid/forward by then (more so than Cyril). How many others?

 

[Captain_Bender]

Rioli was more a small forward than a mid though. Grand finals are a well known graveyard for small forwards. How many have won the Norm Smith as a small forward? Stevie J got one, but I'd say he was a mid/forward by then (more so than Cyril). How many others?

Kevin Bartlett in 1980 would have been the first

 

[hk89]

Kevin Bartlett in 1980 would have been the first

Yup, 7 goals from a small forward in a GF was fairly insane. Maurice kicked 3 when he won, was he playing exclusively up forward on the day?