Mega Thread AFL to investigate Essendon for controversial fitness program - PART3

[evo]

$49 million on an A league match.

Mr Gallop will be watching a replay of that game fairly shortly I'd imagine.

I find that number staggering.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

ah, I am starting to feel better about this as more information comes to light. Like I said from the start: Essendon will be the first club cleared. Then the wait is on for other clubs.

I think Essendon might be the battering ram.

 

[Jobe Watson]

How else would you explain your clubs astonishingly abnormal soft tissue injury rate last year?

Because we overtrained in the pre-season and pushed our players too far, which lead to them having reduced levels of testosterone and growth hormone.

 

[fishardansin]

Sorry but I'm going to have to Fisk you.

Man the Red and Black glasses have come on pretty hard here.

Next thing you know they'll be defending Dank, and saying he has been misrepresented.
We don't know about that. He'll defend himself on Monday night.

The following seems to be extremely plausible:

Dank is involved in peptide smuggling and distribution in the guise of anti-ageing clinics.
Allegedly and investigation is on-going. From what I understand he may have sourced from someone who smuggled them.

Essendon players attended said clinics and received injections in their stomachs.
NO

According to McVeigh they were told these were "Vitamin B and C" injections
Vitamin B shots make perfect sense for being run down. Many vegetarians do it.

Dank in fact injected the players with peptide with the intention to increase muscle growth to fulfill his role at Essendon, as a "sports scientist".
Whoa there.

Their could be some conjecture as to whether the injections were peptide but a)the Vitamin B/C explanation is nonsensical b) Dank is accused of being an active participant in peptide smuggling rings c) the ACC report makes specific mention of anti-ageing clinics as sites of injections d) There were no supervising medical staff. All point to the use of steroids.
The biggest concern is the supplements, which are not necessarily injected.

The big questions that remain:

Did the admin/coaches know?
It is unlikely any of this happened. If it did they did not.

Did the players?
It is unlikely any of this happened. If it did they did not.

How long/How much?

 

[Astro Bomber]

Note how one section comes under the headline:

The following seems extremely plausible and the next section addressed why I had reached that conclusion.

But hey you just desperately want to believe that your club isn't in the shit and will randomly attack anything remotely negative despite me taking great care not to implicate anyone but Dank.

You just look stupid posting things you know nothing about. Trust me, that's how you came across.

 

[TerryWallet]

We all do it - I support buddy unconditionally regardless of the ongoing rumors and innuendo because to date there is not a skerrick of proof but should the worst occur then I will be the first to acknowledge I was wrong BUT there will be others justifying it - it's the way it is

TerryWallet - I don't think lance has ever denied there may be a problem he is just sorting the wheat from the chaff so its not exactly a bunker mentality. I do agree though that I struggle to understand why some respond to obvious trolls - although I've been guilty of it myself and sometimes I admit it depends who the poster is

I wasn't actually referring to LU regarding the bunker mentality. There is always nuance and thought in his arguments. Although this thread has brought out a little of the inner Plugger in him lol.

Fish and others also argue well.

I think you know the bunkerists as well as anyone.

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

Lance quotes the only fact in the article. You then try to say that innuendo undoes all that.

Innuendo is based on the context given by the individual reader.

However, if you claim my points are flimsy and based solely on personal opinion, then:

It now seems that while the Australian Crime Commission had suspicions regarding certain individuals at Essendon

​

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/antidoping-agencies-have-dropped-the-ball-20130208-2e3zt.html#ixzz2KJXhPNYO​

...is certainly no stronger.

It certainly doesn't qualify as a "fact".

You appear to have all gotten yourselves in to a lather over nothing.

 

[tigerdan]

Even if Essendon somehow get off, I think the AFL will be shat off enough to charge them with bringing the game into disrepute. They will need a scapegoat.

Even though there are not a lot of facts out there, it would have to be one hell of a coincidence for it to not be Essendon who are in the the shit. That's why these Essendon fans sticking up for their club look so stupid and why everyone is enjoying baiting them.

I don't think there would have been systematic and deliberate cheating condoned by the club (surely they could not be that stupid). But I do think that they are gonna get stung by either the injecting allegations, if not the content of the so-called supplements.

It wont surprise me if other players from other clubs end up in the shit as well. In fact I can think of a few Tigers who bulked up a lot recently. But so far there has been no suggestion of any club but Essendon that were doing it allegedly in a co-ordinated manner. No-one really gives Richmond shit about Justin Charles because he was a lone player cheating. But club-wide cheating? Essendon will never live it down, regardless of whether they somehow come up smelling like roses.

 

[EnolaGay]

You seem pretty stupid. Not just your grammar, but the fact that you contradicted yourself within the space of two sentences (see red and pink)

No grammars were hurt in the making of this thread.

 

[Mick98]

I don't know about anyone else,but I just want this problem rectified for the good of the game that I love,and not have to wade through pages of thinly veiled attempts at trolling.

 

[Messiah]

The only people prescribing injections should be medical doctors (or physiotherapists in the case of injuries).
The only people who deliver them should be doctors or registered nurses, who follow prescriptions from doctors.
Not only was Dank unqualified to prescribe injections in the first place (scientist) he was certainly not qualified to deliver them.

This report:
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/war-on-sports-scientists-20130207-2e1i1.html

says
Fairfax Media can confirm that Essendon footballers were injected in their stomachs by sacked sports official Stephen Dank at the club last season as well as being intravenously fed supplements at a botox clinic near Windy Hill.

So not only did Dank apparently prescribe an unregistered substance for subcutaneous injection (in the stomach) he also apparently delivered it?
Yet this is not against WADA rules if the substance was not banned.

What IS banned is the IV supplement delivered by the nurse. WADA bans this in any form (even water or saline) if it is in the form of a drip rather than an injection.

At the very least the AFL needs to follow conventional medical practice and make club doctors (and physios in the case of pain relief) solely responsible for prescribing substances (even oral supplements). I know the medical profession is not perfect but at the moment it almost seems like any old AFL employee can prescribe and deliver any substance they like to players by whatever means.

All sorts of legal issues can arise from this, including assault by Dank to the players if they were not sufficiently informed.

EDIT: If it looks like I am changing my opinion on this it is because I am! The more I read the more POed I am becoming ...

 

[Blue and Silver]

Sorry but I'm going to have to Fisk you.

Stomach Injections: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/war-on-sports-scientists-20130207-2e1i1.html


As far as a brief review of Google informs me vitamin B12 injections are typically used for those who have difficulty processing the vitamin (unlikely to include a large portion of the Essendon playing list) and anaemics.

So you're stretching the truth to try and save face for your club. Admirable but you are also spreading misinformation and ignoring very serious allegations selectively

 

[Blue and Silver]

You just look stupid posting things you know nothing about. Trust me, that's how you came across.

Thanks man, Jeez I look a fool.

You completely changed tack and have addressed none of my post save attack it for being "stupid"

Honestly mate, accept that your admin ****ed you over. It's hard, trust me, but once you get past the feeling of betrayal and the gnawing self-loathing you get to look forward to the re-build.

If I'm wrong and Dank did not inject Essendon players with peptides then I'll be offering apologies.

 

[Powerade 08]

I do not think the vitamins Dr.Ageless is prescribing can be obtained through healthy diet.

 

[Jobe Watson]

As far as a brief review of Google informs me vitamin B12 injections are typically used for those who have difficulty processing the vitamin (unlikely to include a large portion of the Essendon playing list) and anaemics.

McVeigh has claimed that players were given vitamin injections before (I assume the day(s) before) regular season games to help them overcome colds and fatigue. Taking those vitamins via injections would allow them to work quicker and more efficiently in the body.

 

[spudmaster]

Because we overtrained in the pre-season and pushed our players too far, which lead to them having reduced levels of testosterone and growth hormone.

THankfully Dank managed to fix that up for them though

 

[Astro Bomber]

I think Essendon might be the battering ram.

We are a pretty strong club. We will knock you down brother

 

[Mick98]

 

[Crankyhawk]

The only people prescribing injections should be medical doctors (or physiotherapists in the case of injuries).
The only people who deliver them should be doctors or registered nurses, who follow prescriptions from doctors.
Not only was Dank unqualified to prescribe injections in the first place (scientist) he was certainly not qualified to deliver them.

This report:
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/war-on-sports-scientists-20130207-2e1i1.html

says
Fairfax Media can confirm that Essendon footballers were injected in their stomachs by sacked sports official Stephen Dank at the club last season as well as being intravenously fed supplements at a botox clinic near Windy Hill.

So not only did Dank apparently prescribe an unregistered substance for subcutaneous injection (in the stomach) he also apparently delivered it?
Yet this is not against WADA rules if the substance was not banned.

What IS banned is the IV supplement delivered by the nurse. WADA bans this in any form (even water or saline) if it is in the form of a drip rather than an injection.

At the very least the AFL needs to follow conventional medical practice and make club doctors (and physios in the case of pain relief) solely responsible for prescribing substances (even oral supplements). I know the medical profession is not perfect but at the moment it almost seems like any old AFL employee can prescribe and deliver any substance they like to players by whatever means.

All sorts of legal issues can arise from this, including assault by Dank to the players if they were not sufficiently informed.

EDIT: If it looks like I am changing my opinion on this it is because I am! The more I read the more POed I am becoming ...

Technically it can be given as long as the individual drip volume is less than 50 mL and it is given less frequently than every 6 hours. So instead of diluting up the active ingredient with saline/ water just inject it straight. then as long as the specific chemical is not on the WADA banned list you're good to go.

 

[fishardansin]

Even if Essendon somehow get off, I think the AFL will be shat off enough to charge them with bringing the game into disrepute. They will need a scapegoat.

Even though there are not a lot of facts out there, it would have to be one hell of a coincidence for it to not be Essendon who are in the the shit. That's why these Essendon fans sticking up for their club look so stupid and why everyone is enjoying baiting them.

Essendon will never live it down, regardless of whether they somehow come up smelling like roses.

 

[whiteoak]

Two days in, (or is it 3?), and I am more confused and undecided than ever.

Can't even fap to my Elle McPherson lingerie catalogues because of this.

FFFUUUU AFL!!

 

[Tanks_Alot]

Because we overtrained in the pre-season and pushed our players too far, which lead to them having reduced levels of testosterone and growth hormone.

LOL so now you're the only team to have over trained during a pre season in the history of the AFL? You're soft tissue injury problems weren't bad, they were abnormally bad to the point where it is very suspicious.

All will be revealed in time Bomber fans and you know it isn't going to end well at all. Anyone with any sense at all would be able to join all the dots together to figure out that it is your club that page 17 of the ACC report is referring to.

 

[Blue and Silver]

McVeigh has claimed that players were given vitamin injections before (I assume the day(s) before) regular season games to help them overcome colds and fatigue. Taking those vitamins via injections would allow them to work quicker and more efficiently in the body.

Potentially. I have no medical background. But the practice sounds unconventional and I can't fathom how a dietary program and appropriate supplements (the legit kind) couldn't achieve the same result.

Would a stomach injection really provide such an improvement? If so then why aren't we all getting them when we get sick? Why doesn't the GP provide a quick stomach injection to cure that cold?

Furthermore how many stomach injections did players receive and at what stage of the season. McVeigh's explanation is plausible for mid-season visits to the anti-ageing clinic (we will leave why they would go to an anti-ageing clinic for vitamin injections for now) but what about pre-season? Did Essendon players recieve injections then? How often did players suffer from "colds and fatigue" and how badly when it was decided they needed stomach injections?

Depending on the answers the story might work. But it only takes a couple of inconsistencies and the whole thing looks mighty frail

 

[spudmaster]

http://www.theage.com.au/national/the-game-gamblers-bet-49m-on-20130208-2e433.html

A few things I take from that.

■Australia's anti-doping agency is examining intelligence that players from up to five NRL clubs may have taken banned or highly questionable supplements.

Referring to the 5 clubs at which Dank previously worked, no doubt.

AFL chief executive Andrew Demetriou said on Friday that specific allegations had been made by the crime commission against at least one AFL club.

What are the specific allegations that were made and which club? Is this referring to the systematic doping claim against Essendon that some read p.17 from the report to indicate?

Fremantle chief Steve Rosich defended the AFL club's reputation as a "clean team", saying the Dockers would only ever inject natural substances such as vitamins.

Seems that injecting vitamins as McVeigh was saying is plausible.

Cricket Australia said it would consider prohibiting the airing of betting promotions during television coverage of matches.

Cricket Australia need to worry more about the upcoming ashes series that no one will be watching if they don't settle on a batting/bowling lineup!

And Prime Minister Julia Gillard said she found it "sickening" that Australian sporting prowess might have been fuelled by performance enhancing drugs.

She'll be feeling even 'sicker' when the election results are in!

 

[Mateyman]

After 2/3 days, nobody actually knows what is going on. I could do without:
a) supporters from opposition clubs loading over Essendon's problems
b) people acting like they know exactly what's going on, and are sure Essendon will be pinged
c) Essendon supporters who are so sure nothing is wrong that they're spending hours of time waiting for updates/replying to speculation on a forum