AFLPA Statement

[FRUMPY]

what do you actually think the investigation was about? Have you forgotten that took place?

Are you suggesting the players didn't cooperate?

It has already been suggested players were coached on their responses and officials were unwilling to co-operate

 

[Carlo]

If i ASADA i would show them the consent forms they signed show they agree to take thymosin.

Then show them the texts from DAnk to the weapon saying thymosin is going to be the cornerstone of program.

Then show them the texts from DANK to Charters asking for a butt load of TB4 vials.

Then say your move A-holes!

Circumstantial
Circumstantial
Circumstantial

Next.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

This is a hilarious little standoff.

Why should the players need the evidence - it happened to them, THEY WERE THERE!

Of course their club is still running with the line that they do not have records . And the players are still running with the line that they were duped.

Now the lawyers and law enforcement folk amongst us will know more then me, but if I get dragged into police headquarters to be questioned for a murder I committed I don't think I have any rights to inspect the police evidence. I am pretty sure they will unleash that on me when they are ready.

Also, stop saying there are offers of deals on the table. There are no deals on offer, just the established process.

not you the accused per se but in court the defence absolutely has a right to see all evidence the prosecution admits. the whole point is to avoid exactly what you said 'unleash' when they're ready.

 

[The Prosecutor]

You follow the process and go through to ADVRP panel and get to see the evidence against you.
The SC is a precurser to that.

How is anyone meant to respond to a SC then beyond saying "We didn't" if ASADA refuse to expand upon their allegation?

 

[The Prosecutor]

It has already been suggested players were coached on their responses and officials were unwilling to co-operate

Where?

 

[Hearts to hearts]

How the hell do they respond without knowing the specifics of the allegation and the reasoning behind it?

You want to use the cop comparison? This is like being brought in, asked why you shouldn't be charged as a murderer without even being told why they brought you of all people in or asking any other question or providing any details over the death in the first place.

I don't want to use a cop comparison, because this process is not like anything else.

Take a step back. ASADA sends a show cause because it believes its investigation shows a possible violation.

A response to a show cause that could stand up would need to be something like "between those dates I was only injected with A, B, C and D, as evidenced by these records and these witnesses." If you can't respond in that way, because you or your doctor or your club have been derelict in the responsibilities set out in the code, then you have to face ASADA's evidence at the ADVRP. Which is still not a trial.

This process is what it is. If you have followed the basics of the rules , then you can answer whatever the process throws at you. If you don't follow the basics of the rules, you don't get to complain that the process isn't being fair on you.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

As far as I'm aware receiving the show cause isn't the same as being charged, the Essendon players have no need to be shown the evidence at this stage they haven't been charged yet and they are not at the trial stage.

The show cause is basically saying we are prepared to charge you with this offence tell us why we shouldn't.

 

[QuietB]

It just seems wrong that they can ask for Evidence,

They either go in and say we took it, we have no idea we took it, or we didnt take it and take them to court. Essendon are absoluite scum. they just wanna see if they are hung before they decide to go to court.

Precisely.

This entire thing has been about the EFC trying to find out how screwed they are from the start. They conveniently didn't keep/lost/burnt/shredded the records and have been hanging on for grim life ever since. It wasn't so bad when the AFL were inside the ASADA tent, everyone knew exactly where things were at then. And then the AFL excused themselves, ASADA got their shit together and ever since the EFC and AFL have slowly lost complete control.

Both already know precisely what happened. This is what makes the request to see the evidence so pathetic. You already know what happened. The players were in the room when it actually happened. This charade that you need someone else to tell you what happened is a farce.

 

[Chief]

I would have thought that all reasonable steps would have involved having a discussion with the club Dr on the purpose of the injections and whether or not the Drugs were compliant with the WADA code.

And upon taking those drugs, following the AFL rules and notifying the club medical officer of the substances taken. It seems none of them did so.

 

[The Prosecutor]

I don't want to use a cop comparison, because this process is not like anything else.

Take a step back. ASADA sends a show cause because it believes its investigation shows a possible violation.

A response to a show cause that could stand up would need to be something like "between those dates I was only injected with A, B, C and D, as evidenced by these records and these witnesses." If you can't respond in that way, because you or your doctor or your club have been derelict in the responsibilities set out in the code, then you have to face ASADA's evidence at the ADVRP. Which is still not a trial.

This process is what it is. If you have followed the basics of the rules , then you can answer whatever the process throws at you. If you don't follow the basics of the rules, you don't get to complain that the process isn't being fair on you.

ASADA hasn't specified any dates though - that's the thing!

 

[van peebles]

Are you suggesting the players didn't cooperate?

Going on the hun,12 players thought they did,asada thought 22 didnt.
When they appear for their SC,they will have an chance to discuss this and got to the panel and see all the evidence against them and argue their case.

 

[LoungeLizard]

in the eyes of the ASADA barrackers they can do no wrong

LOL, Lance you put up a link in another thread that explains the process, you know the process that ASADA MUST follow.
I advice you go and listen to it yourself

 

[IggypopsTshirt]

AFLPA supporting players? BizarreO world

ASADA are really struggling now. Ings might get his job back in a few weeks when McDeadshit is flung out in disgrace. Commiserations to the HTB, your boys are cooked.

 

[Bazza37]

So the Essendon players believe that ASADA has no evidence
Why on earth won't Essendon players take the reduced ban ????
Is it because they can't prove that they were deceived

 

[Tigerbob]

I don't want to use a cop comparison, because this process is not like anything else.

Take a step back. ASADA sends a show cause because it believes its investigation shows a possible violation.

A response to a show cause that could stand up would need to be something like "between those dates I was only injected with A, B, C and D, as evidenced by these records and these witnesses." If you can't respond in that way, because you or your doctor or your club have been derelict in the responsibilities set out in the code, then you have to face ASADA's evidence at the ADVRP. Which is still not a trial.

This process is what it is. If you have followed the basics of the rules , then you can answer whatever the process throws at you. If you don't follow the basics of the rules, you don't get to complain that the process isn't being fair on you.

This. This. This. Every day of the week this.

 

[scarecrow2k1]

Although I don't necessarily agree with it, these practices are standard WADA/ASADA procedures. I don't see how Essendon can now argue against no evidence provided at show cause stage, as it's how it's always done. The AFL signed these terms for the clubs when agreeing to WADA rules, and the clubs have been aware of this for some time. I don't see how Essendon think they are so important in the space of World Sport when WADA have taken down the likes of Lance Armstrong. The AFL and Essendon are small fries in comparison.

 

[Chief]

They reviewed this comment and thought it was OK?

 

[legend166]

Circumstantial
Circumstantial
Circumstantial

Next.

You understand people get prosecuted with circumstantial evidence all the time, right?

Wikipedia has a good line on this:

An explanation involving circumstantial evidence becomes more valid as proof of a fact when the alternative explanations have been ruled out.

We have heaps of circumstantial evidence point to Essendon players using (or intending to use, which in this case brings the same penalty) Thymosin Beta 4. The other explanation is they were using Thymomodulin. We have no cicumstantial evidence pointing to that being correct (other than forged invoices).

In fact I'll just give you a link to the whole article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence

It's a pretty interesting read. DId you know that DNA evidence is considered circumstantial?

 

[The Prosecutor]

So the Essendon players believe that ASADA has no evidence
Why on earth won't Essendon players take the reduced ban ????
Is it because they can't prove that they were deceived

Wut?

Why would the players take a reduced ban if they think they're innocent/there's no evidence?

 

[Dave]

- This is false, Jobe Watson believes he took AOD, a prohibited substance.

Not based on the advice from ASADA at the time he took it, else the new CEO would not have stated that:

"The advice that I've had is that we cannot take the position that prior to April 2013 that athletes or support personnel could have known that aod9604 was in fact a prohibited substance"

 

[Hearts to hearts]

ASADA hasn't specified any dates though - that's the thing!

The example I saw had a date range in it. And if a player could respond with proper records that showed cause why the suspected violation could not have occurred, that's the end of it. Otherwise they go to the ADVRP and hear the evidence. Then they still have the chance to beat it if they produce evidence nothing happened.

The thing is, if you can't bring forward the records you are obliged to keep, because they are unavailable either through incompetence or deliberate obstruction, you are going to have trouble getting through the stages of this process. That is how it supposed to work.

 

[Hearts to hearts]

Not based on the advice from ASADA at the time he took it, else the new CEO would not have stated that:

"The advice that I've had is that we cannot take the position that prior to April 2013 that athletes or support personnel could have known that aod9604 was in fact a prohibited substance"

Jesus wept. He didn't say it wasn't prohibited, just that it would be reasonable for athletes not to have known that - which is a generous position to take.

 

[iBeng]

Not based on the advice from ASADA at the time he took it, else the new CEO would not have stated that:

"The advice that I've had is that we cannot take the position that prior to April 2013 that athletes or support personnel could have known that aod9604 was in fact a prohibited substance"

Sorry but "We didnt know" is a piss weak excuse.

The Essendon club is a professional sporting club operating as a professional organisation. They would be expected to do everything possible in terms of research and understanding before simply injecting.

The Players also have a responsibility to know what they are allowing to be injected into their bodies.

 

[QuietB]

Wut?

Why would the players take a reduced ban if they think they're innocent/there's no evidence?

If there is no evidence any bans will not stick. Why do Essendon need to see the evidence before they decide what course to go down?

 

[vinum coupe]

does anyone think any of this is fair? Providing no evidence? Suggesting the players haven't cooperated?

ASADA are looking shakier by the day. I honestly think they just want this to go away now

Why didn't the players just submit that last paragraph as a response to the show cause?

That whole letter is just garbage.
If Asada released evidence that the players were administered an illegal drug, what do you think the response will be?

It will be the last paragraph!
This is going in circles. To suggest they aren't stalling is ridiculous. Of course they are. They're stalling and praying the club will get them out of it.