AUKUS

[Big Papa Ted]

lol
he is obsessed with batteries atm and have zero idea
there is a reason why the USA, CHina, russia etc countries with the most powerful navies have nuclear subs not diesel

Who is he?

Wtf is going on in this thread.

 

[sataris]

sigh

Diesel and nuclear subs have their pros and cons.

Diesel subs, need to resurface every X days , cause the engines need air to breathe, and they are quite noisy (comparatively) when running on dead dinosaurs.

Nuclear subs, don't need to surface at all, and only get near the surface for resupply, and are significantly faster than diesel boats underwater.

One way to think of them is diesel boats are great at defending points where they don't need to reposition themselves constantly with a fast moving convoy and nuclear boats are more capable of keeping up with fast moving enemy ships and generally operate in deep water exclusively.

 

[sataris]

sigh

Diesel and nuclear subs have their pros and cons.

Diesel subs, need to resurface every X days , cause the engines need air to breathe, and they are quite noisy (comparatively) when running on dead dinosaurs.

Nuclear subs, don't need to surface at all, and only get near the surface for resupply, and are significantly faster than diesel boats underwater.

One way to think of them is diesel boats are great at defending points where they don't need to reposition themselves constantly with a fast moving convoy and nuclear boats are more capable of keeping up with fast moving enemy ships and generally operate in deep water exclusively.

Also note that the speed issue is largely irrelevant (I think the major speed diff between the two boats is something like 5-10 knots. ) the need for air is the major disadvantage for diesel boats.

You'd need to break off pursuit, skulk off somewhere, surface/snorkel to breathe and then come back to the target(s).

Not a submariner, just a guy with an unhealthy obsession with submarines .

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

I cannot emphasise enough how wrong everything you just said is.

Give it a try.

sigh

Diesel and nuclear subs have their pros and cons.

Diesel subs, need to resurface every X days , cause the engines need air to breathe, and they are quite noisy (comparatively) when running on dead dinosaurs.

Nuclear subs, don't need to surface at all, and only get near the surface for resupply, and are significantly faster than diesel boats underwater.

One way to think of them is diesel boats are great at defending points where they don't need to reposition themselves constantly with a fast moving convoy and nuclear boats are more capable of keeping up with fast moving enemy ships and generally operate in deep water exclusively.

This is true, except we've been trying to create a diesel electric submarine with the capabilities of a nuclear submarine ever since we first looked to replace the Oberon class. We want a submarine that can operate in deep water in the Pacific ocean in particular, we've wasted billions trying to do that with submarines that are fundamentally not the best option for the task purely because we were gatekept from the technology required until sometime in 2021.

People keep asking why we didn't just opt for the Soryu off the shelf - the simple answer is it was a waste of money that delivers a product which would not have done what we asked of it. We don't need a littoral submarine - we're buying P-8s at a tenth of the cost of a Soryu class to patrol our northern seas that are no more than 50m deep in most places. We're trying to woo places like Fiji and Micronesia to show that we are a great pacific power, this is the region we're planning to operate submarines in.

 

[Big Papa Ted]

Give it a try.

He is referring to diesel submarines sitting idle, remaining silent on battery power in wait for another vessel to wander into its range. If said diesel submarine need to change positions for whatever reason, it requires the diesel power unit to operate which generates a lot of noise. This contrasts with a nuclear submarine which is not quite as quiet as a diesel submarine on battery but significantly quieter than one operating on engine. Hope this helps.

Because a diesel electric submarine does not require diesel engines to power the propulsion motor, the electric engine does that.

The sole function of the diesel engine is to charge the batteries to enable the submarine to remain submerged whilst being powered by the batteries (unless you're travelling above surface in a non-tactical environment).

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Because a diesel electric submarine does not require diesel engines to power the propulsion motor, the electric engine does that.

The sole function of the diesel engine is to charge the batteries to enable the submarine to remain submerged (unless you're travelling above surface in a non-tactical environment).

Yeah, this has nothing to do whether it's direct drive or not. The capacity of the battery is finite meaning the Collins can either move around very slowly for long periods of time or move quickly (up 20kn) for a short period of time. This offers tactical mobility on battery, not strategic mobility like a nuclear submarine being able to sustain more 20kn underwater for as long as it likes.

 

[sataris]

Because a diesel electric submarine does not require diesel engines to power the propulsion motor, the electric engine does that.

The sole function of the diesel engine is to charge the batteries to enable the submarine to remain submerged whilst being powered by the batteries (unless you're travelling above surface in a non-tactical environment).

Yeah, Like I said the biggest issue is the need to come up for air.

 

[Big Papa Ted]

Yeah, Like I said the biggest issue is the need to come up for air.

Yeah I have no qualms with anything you said, it's been bang on.

 

[Big Papa Ted]

Yeah, this has nothing to do whether it's direct drive or not. The capacity of the battery is finite meaning the Collins can either move around very slowly for long periods of time or move quickly (up 20kn) for a short period of time. This offers tactical mobility on battery, not strategic mobility like a nuclear submarine being able to sustain more 20kn underwater for as long as it likes.

This has nothing to do with your original point. It also isn't how we operate our Collins class submarines (aka as a strategic deterrent).

Also just to front load, my old man was an electrical engineer on the Collins subs for like 20 years, so I have the (mis?)fortune of having my ear chewed off about them (well what he was allowed to tell me anyways)

 

[sataris]

This has nothing to do with your original point. It also isn't how we operate our Collins class submarines (aka as a strategic deterrent).

Also just to front load, my old man was an electrical engineer on the Collins subs for like 20 years, so I have the (mis?)fortune of having my ear chewed off about them (well what he was allowed to tell me anyways)

I've always wanted to know how many spark plugs the thing has, and how easy/difficult it is to change them.

 

[Big Papa Ted]

I've always wanted to know how many spark plugs the thing has, and how easy/difficult it is to change them.

That is detail I don't know, but if you DM me I can probably get him to contact you if you're that keen.

Be careful what you wish for though, he'll chew your ear off about it

 

[Sqotty from office works]

I've always wanted to know how many spark plugs the thing has, and how easy/difficult it is to change them.

Difficult question.
The spark plugs on a nuclear sub need constant changing and cleaning.
The spark plugs on a diesel last longer and need less cleaning and changing..
Conundrum hey.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

This has nothing to do with your original point.

The original point was explaining kranky's post that nuclear submarines can silently chase objects while diesel electric submarines lie in wait - this the context. And in that context, being able to sneak around at 5kn or have a short silent 20kn is not useful when needing to move somewhere else to intercept an enemy vessel that might be travelling at 20kn or 25kn and might still be hundreds of miles away - typical sort of scenario that I assume kranky al was envisioning. So putting aside the semantics and looking that the context, kranky's post was 100% correct and shouldn't be that hard to understand.

This is sort of like the difference between a hybrid Rav 4 being able to do 50km/h for 20ks on battery alone against a Tesla. Yes, they can manage electric-only propulsion but one is very different to the other.

It also isn't how we operate our Collins class submarines (aka as a strategic deterrent).

Really? We treat our Collins class submarines like US nuclear submarines that operate in CVN fleets because we've been obsessed with having that capability and being interoperable with the US Navy since the 1980s. We spent billions trying to get the French to turn a nuclear submarine into a diesel submarine for further pursuit of that goal. The reason why we got them to start with the Barracuda hull and not buy an off the shelf Scorpene is because we insist on using our diesel subs in a way that no other western nation does.

Also just to front load, my old man was an electrical engineer on the Collins subs for like 20 years, so I have the (mis?)fortune of having my ear chewed off about them (well what he was allowed to tell me anyways)

Nice, crazy job being a submariner I've heard. Very different experience to serving on a surface vessel.

 

[Big Papa Ted]

The original point was explaining kranky's post that nuclear submarines can silently chase objects while diesel electric submarines lie in wait - this the context. And in that context, being able to sneak around at 5kn or have a short silent 20kn is not useful when needing to move somewhere else to intercept an enemy vessel that might be travelling at 20kn or 25kn and might still be hundreds of miles away - typical sort of scenario that I assume kranky al was envisioning. So putting aside the semantics and looking that the context, kranky's post was 100% correct and shouldn't be that hard to understand.

This is sort of like the difference between a hybrid Rav 4 being able to do 50km/h for 20ks on battery alone against a Tesla. Yes, they can manage electric-only propulsion but one is very different to the other.

The key point I think you're missing is that what you define as "short" isn't really that short, it's 48-72 hours. And when a sub is 100-200km away, lying in wait and moving to intercept when it moves within a submarines designated zone is well within the Collins capability.

Really? We treat our Collins class submarines like US nuclear submarines that operate in CVN fleets because we've been obsessed with having that capability and being interoperable with the US Navy since the 1980s. We spent billions trying to get the French to turn a nuclear submarine into a diesel submarine for further pursuit of that goal. The reason why we got them to start with the Barracuda hull and not buy an off the shelf Scorpene is because we insist on using our diesel subs in a way that no other western nation does.


Nice, crazy job being a submariner I've heard. Very different experience to serving on a surface vessel.

I'll be honest I have no idea where you've pulled the bolded from. And we wanted the French to convert the subs from nuclear cause we simply didn't believe we had the personnel/capability to support and sustain nuclear subs.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

The key point I think you're missing is that what you define as "short" isn't really that short, it's 48-72 hours. And when a sub is 100-200km away, lying in wait and moving to intercept when it moves within a submarines designated zone is well within the Collins capability.

And what speed can it do while submerged for 48-72 hours? Because it's not 20 knots. This is really getting tiresome anyway, I think the difference between nuclear and diesel submarines are well established?

I'll be honest I have no idea where you've pulled the bolded from. And we wanted the French to convert the subs from nuclear cause we simply didn't believe we had the personnel/capability to support and sustain nuclear subs.

We wanted the French to convert the subs from nuclear because their for-export diesel submarine (the Scorpene class) did not do what we wanted. Seriously, look back at both submarine tenders we've managed since the Oberon class. The first (Collins) was so bastardized from it's original design in the pursuit of range and speed that is has almost nothing in common. The second (Attack) was heading down the same path to the extent we actually started with a nuclear submarine until it ended up being cancelled for actual nuclear submarines. Not sure how much clearer it can be that we've wanted nuclear submarines without the nuclear problems all along, except now we're compromising on the last part instead of the first.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Anyway, aside from propulsion specifically the other primary advantage that a nuclear submarine has on offer over a diesel or AIP submarine is the sheer quantity of power provided by the reactor and subsequently how much the size of the hull can be scaled up and what other sort of sensor systems that can be run full time without having to conserve power. Comparing the output and payload of the Collins class against the Virginia class illustrates this perfectly. For those in the thread earlier querying when modern submarines were going to become some sort of underwater drone carrying or controlling platform, this is where the bigger hull will also prove useful.

 

[kranky al]

Also note that the speed issue is largely irrelevant (I think the major speed diff between the two boats is something like 5-10 knots. ) the need for air is the major disadvantage for diesel boats.

You'd need to break off pursuit, skulk off somewhere, surface/snorkel to breathe and then come back to the target(s).

Not a submariner, just a guy with an unhealthy obsession with submarines .

A diesel electric at 20 kts has a couple of hours range before it has to snorkel

A nuc a couple of decades…. They run out of food not range

 

[QuietB]

In 20 years time both nuclear and diesel subs will be completely useless. Navies might be useless given the advancement of hypersonic missiles.

Ukraine who has relatively SFA has already been sinking Russian flagships for fun.

 

[kranky al]

The key point I think you're missing is that what you define as "short" isn't really that short, it's 48-72 hours. And when a sub is 100-200km away, lying in wait and moving to intercept when it moves within a submarines designated zone is well within the Collins capability.


I'll be honest I have no idea where you've pulled the bolded from. And we wanted the French to convert the subs from nuclear cause we simply didn't believe we had the personnel/capability to support and sustain nuclear subs.

At 20 kts its short…. Exponential effect - a couple of hours

 

[kranky al]

In 20 years time both nuclear and diesel subs will be completely useless. Navies might be useless given the advancement of hypersonic missiles.

Ukraine who has relatively SFA has already been sinking Russian flagships for fun.

I keep on top of this stuff and have seen nothing to suggest this. Yes there are advances in sub detection but they are still limited in range.

You can flood an area with asw - say the south china sea and deny it to enemy subs like the sosus network did in the 70s - but you cant deny the ocean to them, its too large.

Added to this the new asw lidar and other measures are active arrays - which means you can track their approach and avoid them…. As fast as asw advances - countermeasures will counter them.

Subs will become drone carriers

 

[QuietB]

I keep on top of this stuff and have seen nothing to suggest this. Yes there are advances in sub detection but they are still limited in range.

You can flood an area with asw - say the south china sea and deny it to enemy subs like the sosus network did in the 70s - but you cant deny the ocean to them, its too large.

Added to this the new asw lidar and other measures are active arrays - which means you can track their approach and avoid them…. As fast as asw advances - countermeasures will counter them.

Subs will become drone carriers

That is all fine, but all Australia has to do is defend a coast line against amphibious landing. You can buy a lot of missiles for $350 billion

 

[nut]

What's the total tonnage of whale meat you can get on board that?

Minky whales are the wombats of the ocean….. high in omega 3s

 

[kranky al]

That is all fine, but all Australia has to do is defend a coast line against amphibious landing. You can buy a lot of missiles for $350 billion

You first have to find the ships.

The best thing to mission kill a carrier group is a sub

 

[Big Papa Ted]

At 20 kts its short…. Exponential effect - a couple of hours

Yeah but it's not limited to a couple of hours at 20 kts....

 

[Big Papa Ted]

And what speed can it do while submerged for 48-72 hours? Because it's not 20 knots. This is really getting tiresome anyway, I think the difference between nuclear and diesel submarines are well established?

Truthfully, neither of us know the real answer. Happy to park it though cause I don't think we're going to reach agreement.