AUKUS

[Roylion]

They do have more claim than the Brits for sure but Taiwan was never fully occupied by China with most of the island being independent until the Japanese invaded.

Taiwan was annexed in 1683 by the Qing Dynasty and ceded to the Japanese empire in 1895 by the Treaty of Shimonoeski. The Republic of China which had overthrown the Qing in 1911 took control of Taiwan following the surrender of Japan in 1945. Japanese troops in Taiwan were directed to surrender to the representatives of the Supreme Allied Commander in the China Theater, Chiang Kai-shek (i.e. the Republic of China military forces). Japan renounced sovereignity of Taiwan in 1952. The Treaty of Taipei was concluded between the Republic of China and Japan on 28 April 1952.

 

[kranky al]

Harpoons are anti-ship missiles - they are used to attack an invading fleet and protect the country.

Tomahawks however can attack land based targets, so we can now join the Americans in launching cruise missiles against the Chinese mainland, which will now make us open to retaliation against targets in Australia.

1) how are they going to know who launched? Its not a game of Battleships where you tell your opponent what youve done.

2) “Do you realize the Australians have a bomber that can put a bomb through that window on to the table here in front of us?” Former Indonesian defense minister Benny Murdani speaking to the Indonesian cabinet about RAAF F-111C.


Nothing quite focusses the mind from the abstract…. Sending troops thousands of miles away to kill / be killed ….. to the reality of being personally targeted.

 

[kranky al]

So is China building belts and roads to trade with the world or conquer it?

There’s your answer. They will use soft power

Our current mistake is to characterise them as crafty copy cats. They are the most intelligent bunch on the planet

Oh, a binary argument. If they arent doing one, they must be doing the other.

Only one.

Of course the biggest peacetime military buildup in history is benign but.

Funking tankies.

 

[kranky al]

Hugh has Australia's history on his side. Projections post 2040 says it all.

That the US wont allow us to build the Virginia class here suggests they dont believe we can do it either. Then there are suggestions that the AUKUS subs will have bits from both the US & UK, i.e an unproven bitsa.

Orrrr the us and the uk are joining forces like the jsf so they arent duplicating efforts and research and are sharing targeting / sonar etc tech but building different hulls.

 

[kranky al]

We face an imminent threat from China, so we're buying some subs that we'll get in about twenty years.

But seriously when are the stop gap ones suppossed to arrive?

We are getting second hand virginias in the 30’s

 

[Kwality]

Orrrr the us and the uk are joining forces like the jsf so they arent duplicating efforts and research and are sharing targeting / sonar etc tech but building different hulls.

I dont share your optimism. Happy to be proven wrong.

 

[sataris]

We are getting second hand virginias in the 30’s

I seriously hope we'll be able to manufacture our own Mark 48 Adcap torpedoes they operate with as well.

Or we have to buy them...

 

[QuietB]

Oh, a binary argument. If they arent doing one, they must be doing the other.

Only one.

Of course the biggest peacetime military buildup in history is benign but.

Funking tankies.

Why aren't you this passionate about Palestine?

 

[Sqotty from office works]

I seriously hope we'll be able to manufacture our own Mark 48 Adcap torpedoes they operate with as well.

Or we have to buy them...

You can buy 3 for 50 bucks at ALDI

 

[kranky al]

Why aren't you this passionate about Palestine?

Im very passionate about palestine, what israel is doing there is tantamount to genocide.

 

[Festerz]

Of course the biggest peacetime military buildup in history is benign but.

Funking tankies.

2021: The U.S. military budget was $767.8 billion.

2021: China’s military budget was $270 billion.

Yes, there has been a rapid growth in China military outlays in the 2000s - especially its navy - and that has its neighbours worried given the rhetoric coming from Beijing. But that comes from a very low base (its defence spending in the early 1990s was lower than that of the U.K. and Russia) and is to be expected from a rapidly growing nation that is currently the 2nd largest GDP in the world (it was in 13th place in 2000) and has been sitting in second place since 2010, growing at a faster rather than the US.

To ignore the fact that US military expenditure has far exceeded China's by a multiple of 5 or more for all but the last 3 years is to present a false picture of the relative strength and military thirst of China vis a vis the US.

Furthermore, China's expenditure on its military as a % of its GDP has been lower than the US, India and the UK for each of the past 30 years prior to 2022.

Military Expenditures as a Percentage of GDP

Military Expenditures: How Do the Top-Spending Nations Compare?

An analysis looks at how defense spending among the top six nations has changed since 1992, what has driven the changes and what it might mean for future spending.

www.stlouisfed.org

 

[Saint]

Taiwan was annexed in 1683 by the Qing Dynasty and ceded to the Japanese empire in 1895 by the Treaty of Shimonoeski. The Republic of China which had overthrown the Qing in 1911 took control of Taiwan following the surrender of Japan in 1945. Japanese troops in Taiwan were directed to surrender to the representatives of the Supreme Allied Commander in the China Theater, Chiang Kai-shek (i.e. the Republic of China military forces). Japan renounced sovereignity of Taiwan in 1952. The Treaty of Taipei was concluded between the Republic of China and Japan on 28 April 1952.

I don't know why it has to be pointed out to people so much that the people who live there determine how they want to be ruled, not the dictates of larger regional powers.

China's claim on Taiwan is weaker than Taiwan's claim on China (which they're not making). Chiang Kai Shek is the last democractically elected President of China.

 

[nut]

I don't know why it has to be pointed out to people so much that the people who live there determine how they want to be ruled, not the dictates of larger regional powers.

China's claim on Taiwan is weaker than Taiwan's claim on China (which they're not making). Chiang Kai Shek is the last democractically elected President of China.

…… agree.

But we can’t preach to anyone about plundering another country.

 

[QuietB]

…… agree.

But we can’t preach to anyone about plundering another country.

We can’t even preach about democracy - Australians certainly have not much respect and very little interest in it.

 

[Festerz]

We can’t even preach about democracy - Australians certainly have not much respect and very little interest in it.

A bit harsh.

I think most Australians just take our system of democracy for granted and, to be frank, don't understand all its elements and the hard fought history that made it like it is.

My own state of South Australia was the first first colony in Australia and just the fourth place in the world to grant adult women the right to vote and the first in the world to grant them the right to stand as Members of Parliament - that included giving the right to vote includes Aboriginal women.

Your comment about the lack of interest in these things is spot on though. With so much of our media focussed on the US and trivial matters is it any wonder the issues that lie at the very core of our freedoms go un-noticed?

And bringing it back on topic - the lack of transparency and public discussion about the AUKUS decision helps to foster that lack of engagement by our people. Back in September 2021 our (then) PM announced the most significant shift in our strategic defence history via a surprise global press conference in the middle of the night, Australian time. Why? Because it suited the needs of the US media. And so it has continued.

 

[sataris]

Of course the biggest peacetime military buildup in history is benign but.

Funking tankies.

The US has been at war for most of it's existence so they get an easy out.....

 

[kranky al]

The US has been at war for most of it's existence so they get an easy out.....

All of you people pointing and saying but the US did this and the US did that….

Dont realise that you are proving the point not disproving it.

You take the way every dominant empire going back to ancient times have behaved….like they own the place…. The only ones who dont get treated like serfs are those able to stand up to them.

You think a totalitarian dictatorship that tortures their own citizens is somehow going to be benign despite the fact that we can show you facts to the contrary before they were even that powerful….. and now they are building a military that will straddle the globe…


You would have to be the most wide eyed gullibles …..

 

[Baltimore Jack]

All of you people pointing and saying but the US did this and the US did that….

Dont realise that you are proving the point not disproving it.

You take the way every dominant empire going back to ancient times have behaved….like they own the place…. The only ones who dont get treated like serfs are those able to stand up to them.

You think a totalitarian dictatorship that tortures their own citizens is somehow going to be benign despite the fact that we can show you facts to the contrary before they were even that powerful….. and now they are building a military that will straddle the globe…


You would have to be the most wide eyed gullibles …..

 

[sataris]

and now they are building a military that will straddle the globe…


You would have to be the most wide eyed gullibles …..

Where's that map with the all the foreign US bases on it?

 

[kranky al]

Where's that map with the all the foreign US bases on it?

Again, pointing out what the us has done reinforces what im saying. That’s what the dominant nation has been doing for thousands of years before jesus played centre half back for bethlehem.

What in China invading tibet, vietnam and india as well as occupying the uighurs added to their treatment of Australia makes you think they will be any different?

 

[nut]

Again, pointing out what the us has done reinforces what im saying. That’s what the dominant nation has been doing for thousands of years before jesus played centre half back for bethlehem.

What in China invading tibet, vietnam and india as well as occupying the uighurs added to their treatment of Australia makes you think they will be any different?

Treatment of Australia?

 

[kranky al]

Treatment of Australia?

Australia has been the target of Chinese efforts over the past several years to weaken Australia's alliance with the United States by exploiting its position as Australia’s leading trade partner and meddling in the Australian political system through its foreign interference campaign. When Australia stood up for itself against China—banning Chinese equipment from Australian 5G telecom equipment, passing legislation to counter foreign interference attempts, and requiring the registration of all who lobby on behalf of foreign governments, including national security as a criterion in its foreign investment reviews, and calling for an independent investigation of the origin and causes of the Covid-19 pandemic—China reacted with a series of restrictions on Australian exports to China, a refusal to meet (or even talk to) any Australian government officials, and threatened for more retaliatory actions. Indeed, the Chinese embassy in Canberra gave the media a list of 14 issues that Australia was required to unilaterally remedy to reverse these ”punishments.” If implemented, these demands directly undermine such basic Australian principles as freedom of the press, restrict parliamentary debate, and threaten academic freedom.

China state sanctioned hackers continually hack networks and businesses stealing ip and causing damage to infrastructure.

 

[kranky al]

Good writeup on the difference between nucs and diesel electric:

<<
Virginia class SSN, the likely Australian candidate

These are very quiet boats. Yes, it is true that a diesel boat running on batteries can be quieter than a nuke boat, as there’s no reactor noises. However, we’re still not talking about a huge amount of noise with a modern nuclear submarine.

Further, that diesel boat submerged is going to top out at around 20 knots, and that’s going flat-out which will drain the batteries in a matter of minutes. This is a big problem in an actual shooting scenario, as it gives the boat very little time to get the h—- out of dodge. Basically, if you get located by an ASW unit while in a diesel boat, you’d better have your affairs in order.

Diesel boats also have to surface to recharge their batteries. They can either fully surface or snorkel, but either way they need air eventually- even the ones with air-independent propulsion (AIP). While running the diesels they are very loud, and while on the surface they are extremely vulnerable to attack. Note also that AIP, which is the only way to stay submerged in a diesel boat for significant periods, also has a very low top speed- usually around 5 knots.

Nuclear boats on the other hand, don’t have to surface until they run out of food or other crew supplies. If you need to be somewhere in a hurry, you can run a nuke boat at 30+ knots submerged for as long as you want. The ‘quiet’ speed of nuclear boats is lower, usually around 20 knots, but bear in mind that’s the top speed of most diesel boats- and they would have to stop for a breather in ~30 mins.>>

 

[ShanDog]

Had no idea there were so many military experts on BF.

 

[CD Xbow]

2021: The U.S. military budget was $767.8 billion.

2021: China’s military budget was $270 billion.

Yes, there has been a rapid growth in China military outlays in the 2000s - especially its navy - and that has its neighbours worried given the rhetoric coming from Beijing. But that comes from a very low base (its defence spending in the early 1990s was lower than that of the U.K. and Russia) and is to be expected from a rapidly growing nation that is currently the 2nd largest GDP in the world (it was in 13th place in 2000) and has been sitting in second place since 2010, growing at a faster rather than the US.

To ignore the fact that US military expenditure has far exceeded China's by a multiple of 5 or more for all but the last 3 years is to present a false picture of the relative strength and military thirst of China vis a vis the US.

Furthermore, China's expenditure on its military as a % of its GDP has been lower than the US, India and the UK for each of the past 30 years prior to 2022.

Military Expenditures as a Percentage of GDP

Military Expenditures: How Do the Top-Spending Nations Compare?

An analysis looks at how defense spending among the top six nations has changed since 1992, what has driven the changes and what it might mean for future spending.

www.stlouisfed.org

If you do purchasing power corrections you get very similar numbers. It's about 2x for Russian and Chinese military gear.