Workshop Australian Flag

[fumbler]

Yeah exactly, digital vs real makes a massive difference. Like the below, it isn't the best video but it gives a better perspective of the Southern Horizon.

That is no upgrade on what we have.
IF we get a new flag it has to be more than taking the Union Jack off and adding a few strokes of colour to it.

Why green and gold? The Saffers wear green and gold, the Brazilians wear green and gold, Jamaica has green and gold.

Alternatives are fine, but lets look at fixing other stuff of more importance.


Also i do realise it's just designs and chat but this is of great importance to me and my family.

 

[Craegus]

That is no upgrade on what we have.
IF we get a new flag it has to be more than taking the Union Jack off and adding a few strokes of colour to it.

Why green and gold? The Saffers wear green and gold, the Brazilians wear green and gold, Jamaica has green and gold.

Alternatives are fine, but lets look at fixing other stuff of more importance.


Also i do realise it's just designs and chat but this is of great importance to me and my family.

I am open to other designs, as I said I have changed my preference already. Show me a better alternative design and I will certainly consider it, but at the moment the Southern Horizon is the best of the options in my view.

 

[NM_Mitchell]

We wear green and gold, and it's become pretty synonymous with our country.

I'm more than fine with keeping the flag, btw, but if we did change it, I'd want it to be something that looks nice and screams Australia pretty well, I reckon the Southern horizon does that alright.

 

[fumbler]

I am open to other designs, as I said I have changed my preference already. Show me a better alternative design and I will certainly consider it, but at the moment the Southern Horizon is the best of the options in my view.

Why don't we go with this, i mean it's the colours you want.

Should we call ourselves West or East Brazil?

 

[Craegus]

Why don't we go with this, i mean it's the colours you want.

Should we call ourselves West or East Brazil?

Wow, so what if the colours are similar to Brazil. Should every red white and blue nation be deemed to be the same or all connected, or those with red and white. Common colours exist with flags, it is going to happen as there is only a set amount of colours to choose from that work on a flag.

I said give me a better design, you have not done so, so my current favourite design shall remain.

I get you have a strong connection to the current flag, I like it too, but I am also open to change as the current design is beginning to have less connection to the general population and the modern Australia we are trying to live in.

 

[fumbler]

Wow, so what if the colours are similar to Brazil. Should every red white and blue nation be deemed to be the same or all connected, or those with red and white. Common colours exist with flags, it is going to happen as there is only a set amount of colours to choose from that work on a flag.

I said give me a better design, you have not done so, so my current favourite design shall remain.

I get you have a strong connection to the current flag, I like it too, but I am also open to change as the current design is beginning to have less connection to the general population and the modern Australia we are trying to live in.

See that's the problem with society nowadays.

Why should we change the flag?
Is it because we are bored, or that some minorities don't know what the flag stands for, or is it that the Union Jack which is not only the English flag is seen as a burden carried by so many?

Really the flag change thing is bought up around Australia Day every year, i look at it and see strength, unity, foresight, prosperity and history. The Australian flag and the Anthem and our current Democratic set up should be left alone, we don't have any rights to change what people before us fought for just because we're bored.


IF i changed it i'd put the shield in the place of the UJ.



What are your reasons behind wanting the flag changed?

 

[Craegus]

See that's the problem with society nowadays.

Why should we change the flag?
Is it because we are bored, or that some minorities don't know what the flag stands for, or is it that the Union Jack which is not only the English flag is seen as a burden carried by so many?

Really the flag change thing is bought up around Australia Day every year, i look at it and see strength, unity, foresight, prosperity and history. The Australian flag and the Anthem and our current Democratic set up should be left alone, we don't have any rights to change what people before us fought for just because we're bored.


IF i changed it i'd put the shield in the place of the UJ.

View attachment 209764

What are your reasons behind wanting the flag changed?

I don't believe that it is boredom that is leading to this discussion, rather a want for change and finally creating a full identity for our country as our connection to the UK has become far less important since the flags inception in 1901.

As such I feel that the flag is a remnant of a time passed (partially the same with the national anthem, but I don't necessarily want it to change). We are more and more a country with our own identity that is separate from the UK. With the current flag the complete movement away from this is impossible. I am in no way a out and out republican, but in saying that, I would like a system where we are no longer directly part of the Monarchy (Australian head of state), but still part of the Commonwealth as that connection is still of benefit to us.

You say fought for us, yes in recent years this is the case, but the two major conflicts in our history (the two World Wars) were never fought under, rather they were fought under the Union Jack (WWI and WWII) or Red Ensign (WWII), not the current Blue Ensign which only became the official flag in 1954 after 53 years of confusion as to which was the official design. It was also a flag that no Australian actually voted for in a referendum, but rather was chosen by a 5 person panel after a competition to design it. It also had to be accepted by the British first and was required to show loyalty to the Empire, Federation, history, heraldry, distinctiveness, utility and cost of manufacture. So in reality though there is a connection to the current flag, it is also not really a true representation of our nation nor is it as connected to history as people may think it is.

 

[Groupie_]

I don't believe that it is boredom that is leading to this discussion, rather a want for change and finally creating a full identity for our country as our connection to the UK has become far less important since the flags inception in 1901.

As such I feel that the flag is a remnant of a time passed (partially the same with the national anthem, but I don't necessarily want it to change). We are more and more a country with our own identity that is separate from the UK. With the current flag the complete movement away from this is impossible. I am in no way a out and out republican, but in saying that, I would like a system where we are no longer directly part of the Monarchy (Australian head of state), but still part of the Commonwealth as that connection is still of benefit to us.

You say fought for us, yes in recent years this is the case, but the two major conflicts in our history (the two World Wars) were never fought under, rather they were fought under the Union Jack (WWI and WWII) or Red Ensign (WWII), not the current Blue Ensign which only became the official flag in 1954 after 53 years of confusion as to which was the official design. It was also a flag that no Australian actually voted for in a referendum, but rather was chosen by a 5 person panel after a competition to design it. It also had to be accepted by the British first and was required to show loyalty to the Empire, Federation, history, heraldry, distinctiveness, utility and cost of manufacture. So in reality though there is a connection to the current flag, it is also not really a true representation of our nation nor is it as connected to history as people may think it is.

great post cragie

 

[Stewart2Austin Reborn]

What are your reasons behind wanting the flag changed?

Our flag, as it stands, fails to capture modern Australia. It's a historical artefact which has lingered for too long. A union jack? Carn.

The whole thing is too invasion ('settler' [sic]) focused. It needs to branch out more and be more inclusive of all Australians, whether indigenous or first generation.

We are all in one country and we all need a banner to stand behind, not just white Australians.

That's the crux of it.

 

[Craegus]

That's the crux of it.

So your certainly a fan of a design with the Southern Cross then.

 

[fumbler]

I don't believe that it is boredom that is leading to this discussion, rather a want for change and finally creating a full identity for our country as our connection to the UK has become far less important since the flags inception in 1901.

As such I feel that the flag is a remnant of a time passed (partially the same with the national anthem, but I don't necessarily want it to change). We are more and more a country with our own identity that is separate from the UK. With the current flag the complete movement away from this is impossible. I am in no way a out and out republican, but in saying that, I would like a system where we are no longer directly part of the Monarchy (Australian head of state), but still part of the Commonwealth as that connection is still of benefit to us.

You say fought for us, yes in recent years this is the case, but the two major conflicts in our history (the two World Wars) were never fought under, rather they were fought under the Union Jack (WWI and WWII) or Red Ensign (WWII), not the current Blue Ensign which only became the official flag in 1954 after 53 years of confusion as to which was the official design. It was also a flag that no Australian actually voted for in a referendum, but rather was chosen by a 5 person panel after a competition to design it. It also had to be accepted by the British first and was required to show loyalty to the Empire, Federation, history, heraldry, distinctiveness, utility and cost of manufacture. So in reality though there is a connection to the current flag, it is also not really a true representation of our nation nor is it as connected to history as people may think it is.

Nice i love to talk of all this war and Australia, i could do it for hours.

I like the fact you are up on some specific points. You got a lot of your facts from Ausflag which is a pro-newflag site.
The red ensign was meant for merchant ships but was used by normal everyday Australians as a protest to the Government for not allowing them to use the blue ensign and thus it caught on.
In 1941, Prime Minister the Rt Hon Robert Menzies issued a press statement recommending the flying of the blue ensign as a national emblem.
The Flags Act 1953 ended confusion about which ensign to use.

The main reason it wasn't officially used until 1954 ( my favourite and should be to all the Royal haters) it wasn't given Royal assent until then.

Visit: http://www.australianflag.net.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=93&Itemid=77

It was also a flag that no Australian actually voted for in a referendum, but rather was chosen by a 5 person panel after a competition to design it.

That more than 32 thousand people entered with 5 of those entries being almost identical, they have changed the stars points and numbers over the years but it's basically been the same.

Our flag was produced during peace time and has nothing to do with war, but it carries some semblance and we need to heed to it's history.

2860 Private Arthur Stanley Baker enlisted at Annandale, New South Wales, on 25 September 1916, and served with 60 Battalion, AIF. He died of wounds in France on 9 August 1918, at the age of 22. This portrait, painted in 1917, appears to have been copied from a photograph.

Front

Back

Cloth badge in the shape of a bow-tie made for the Australian contingent to the Boer War, 1900. The surprising thing here is that the images closely resemble the Australian Commonwealth Ensign and the Australian Red Ensign (without the Federation Star) on a souvenir dated 1900. The Federation did not take place until 1901 and supposedly the Australian flag was not designed until 1901 and officially accepted in 1903.

The Old Flag
Our flag bears the stars that blaze at night
In our southern sky of blue,
And a little old flag in the corner
That's part of our heritage, too.
Who were sent to the ends of the earth,
The rogues and the schemers,
The doers and dreamers
Who gave modern Australia birth.
And you, who are shouting to change it,
You don't seem to understand,
It's the flag of our law and our language,
Not the flag of a faraway land.
It doesn't mean we owe allegiance
To some forgotten imperial dream;
We've the stars to show where we're going,
And the old flag to show where we've been.

By Robin Northover



Heard that part before?

Our flag, as it stands, fails to capture modern Australia. It's a historical artefact which has lingered for too long. A union jack? Carn.


The whole thing is too invasion ('settler' [sic]) focused. It needs to branch out more and be more inclusive of all Australians, whether indigenous or first generation.

We are all in one country and we all need a banner to stand behind, not just white Australians.

That's the crux of it.

This whole comment here is why this country is at where it is today.

You talk of invasion, then proceed to only include first generation and aboriginal. This does not constitute a reason large enough to change the flag, if you take into account all the peoples who now live in Australia then why do we just not use the UN Flag?

The current flag does not just represent white people and i think you are taking this to a level you don't really want it to go to. I am not a full blooded white aussie and i find your post to be totally degrading.
Please refrain from posting about hysteria in the future as it is not what this thread was made for, i am up to a discussion through pm on the matter if you want to explore that.

 

[Jack Stevens]

I'm not a fan of the Southern Horizon, the wavy green and gold just look really out of place on a national flag.

The best effort I've seen is probably The Cheesecake's edit of craegus's design (the one on the right)

Although I'd probably edit it further to have a gold federation star, and the green flush against the blue.

 

[TheSierBear]

This flag absolutely rocks...



But in all seriousness make this our flag now.

 

[Craegus]

Nice i love to talk of all this war and Australia, i could do it for hours.

I like the fact you are up on some specific points. You got a lot of your facts from Ausflag which is a pro-newflag site.
The red ensign was meant for merchant ships but was used by normal everyday Australians as a protest to the Government for not allowing them to use the blue ensign and thus it caught on.
In 1941, Prime Minister the Rt Hon Robert Menzies issued a press statement recommending the flying of the blue ensign as a national emblem.
The Flags Act 1953 ended confusion about which ensign to use.

The main reason it wasn't officially used until 1954 ( my favourite and should be to all the Royal haters) it wasn't given Royal assent until then.

Visit: http://www.australianflag.net.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=93&Itemid=77



That more than 32 thousand people entered with 5 of those entries being almost identical, they have changed the stars points and numbers over the years but it's basically been the same.

Our flag was produced during peace time and has nothing to do with war, but it carries some semblance and we need to heed to it's history.

2860 Private Arthur Stanley Baker enlisted at Annandale, New South Wales, on 25 September 1916, and served with 60 Battalion, AIF. He died of wounds in France on 9 August 1918, at the age of 22. This portrait, painted in 1917, appears to have been copied from a photograph.

Front

Back

Cloth badge in the shape of a bow-tie made for the Australian contingent to the Boer War, 1900. The surprising thing here is that the images closely resemble the Australian Commonwealth Ensign and the Australian Red Ensign (without the Federation Star) on a souvenir dated 1900. The Federation did not take place until 1901 and supposedly the Australian flag was not designed until 1901 and officially accepted in 1903.

The Old Flag
Our flag bears the stars that blaze at night
In our southern sky of blue,
And a little old flag in the corner
That's part of our heritage, too.
Who were sent to the ends of the earth,
The rogues and the schemers,
The doers and dreamers
Who gave modern Australia birth.
And you, who are shouting to change it,

You don't seem to understand,
It's the flag of our law and our language,

Not the flag of a faraway land.
It doesn't mean we owe allegiance

To some forgotten imperial dream;

We've the stars to show where we're going,

And the old flag to show where we've been.

By Robin Northover



Heard that part before?




This whole comment here is why this country is at where it is today.

You talk of invasion, then proceed to only include first generation and aboriginal. This does not constitute a reason large enough to change the flag, if you take into account all the peoples who now live in Australia then why do we just not use the UN Flag?

The current flag does not just represent white people and i think you are taking this to a level you don't really want it to go to. I am not a full blooded white aussie and i find your post to be totally degrading.
Please refrain from posting about hysteria in the future as it is not what this thread was made for, i am up to a discussion through pm on the matter if you want to explore that.

Actually my information came from multiple sources, it is just that Ausflag has happened to summarise it.

Granted 5 people came up with similar designs and I know there were others that were similar, but still that ratio of 5 in 32,000 is only 0.016% of the entries created that design from those that entered (ok could be said to be a smaller percentage to what would happen today), however if you look at it from a population of 3,773,801 at the time that is only 0.00013%, where as a referendum today would have around 80%* of people voting on the designs compared to those percentages designing it and just 5 people choosing it.

*Taking into account a rough estimate of 20% donkey votes.

But yes the flag does have history, I cannot argue that, it is just that is has less history than it is really claimed to have. Add to that the issue that it does have which is the link to white settlement and British rule and it begins to lack the symbology that an Australian flag should have. Now a new flag will take time to gain the history of the old one, but it will also lack the negatives associated with the current design.

 

[Dylan8]

I'm not a fan of the Southern Horizon, the wavy green and gold just look really out of place on a national flag.

The best effort I've seen is probably The Cheesecake's edit of craegus's design (the one on the right)

Although I'd probably edit it further to have a gold federation star, and the green flush against the blue.

basically /thread

 

[fumbler]

I'm not a fan of the Southern Horizon, the wavy green and gold just look really out of place on a national flag.

The best effort I've seen is probably The Cheesecake's edit of craegus's design (the one on the right)

Although I'd probably edit it further to have a gold federation star, and the green flush against the blue.

That left one isn't bad.

Something like this but around the other way.

 

[HTT]

FWIW If we made a change I'd like to see something like this, a quick mock up (on my iPad ). The yellow represents the sand of beaches or the desert, with the southern cross above it.

 

[Shaunyk]

While people want something uniquely Australian, can we **** off the southern cross then? Pls.

 

[fumbler]

Actually my information came from multiple sources, it is just that Ausflag has happened to summarise it.

Granted 5 people came up with similar designs and I know there were others that were similar, but still that ratio of 5 in 32,000 is only 0.016% of the entries created that design from those that entered (ok could be said to be a smaller percentage to what would happen today), however if you look at it from a population of 3,773,801 at the time that is only 0.00013%, where as a referendum today would have around 80%* of people voting on the designs compared to those percentages designing it and just 5 people choosing it.

*Taking into account a rough estimate of 20% donkey votes.

But yes the flag does have history, I cannot argue that, it is just that is has less history than it is really claimed to have. Add to that the issue that it does have which is the link to white settlement and British rule and it begins to lack the symbology that an Australian flag should have. Now a new flag will take time to gain the history of the old one, but it will also lack the negatives associated with the current design.

I'll bow to the process they chose to choose it and i wasn't one of them who chose it and hell i wasn't one of the ones who didn't let the original peoples have a say, but i am one of the ones now that does have a say.

What do you mean by history less than is really claimed?

Lets move away from the 'British' excuse as it is the first thing people say even though 50% of those British people were either poor Scots, Cornish, Irish etc or ex-convicts who had won their freedom and hated the English more than any other.

If we don't hold onto what we were we will never be who we want to be.

 

[Shaunyk]

Actually, I mean more that we should stop pretending it is exclusive or unique to Australia in such discussion

 

[fumbler]

Actually, I mean more that we should stop pretending it is exclusive or unique to Australia in such discussion

I understand, i like the idea.

I wouldn't mind even having the Aboriginal flag if we lost the current one.

 

[Craegus]

I'll bow to the process they chose to choose it and i wasn't one of them who chose it and hell i wasn't one of the ones who didn't let the original peoples have a say, but i am one of the ones now that does have a say.

What do you mean by history less than is really claimed?

Lets move away from the 'British' excuse as it is the first thing people say even though 50% of those British people were either poor Scots, Cornish, Irish etc or ex-convicts who had won their freedom and hated the English more than any other.

If we don't hold onto what we were we will never be who we want to be.

By less history I mean the whole point of the argument of we "fought under the flag" which is always used in the keep the design argument. I concede we fought for the flag, but that is a major difference that changes the whole history of the flag.

The British I speak of is the United Kingdom or Great Britain which as much as Scots, Cornish, Northern Irish or convicts can claim that they hate the English, the flag still represents them, and the use of the Union Jack on our flag represents the British/UK/GB rule over us, a point that cannot be denied.

Yes but holding onto the past does not allow us to truly proceed into the future. Embrace the past by utilising the federation star and southern cross, which represents our history as a nation, but move on from the British rule that does not control us now.

I wouldn't mind even having the Aboriginal flag if we lost the current one.

Nope, nope, nope. A flag for all, which singles out none.

 

[Shaunyk]

Despite not feeling like the eventual flag must have the southern cross, this design is my favourite.

 

[Groupie_]

View attachment 209811 FWIW If we made a change I'd like to see something like this, a quick mock up (on my iPad ). The yellow represents the sand of beaches or the desert, with the southern cross above it.

too european union-ish

 

[Craegus]

Despite not feeling like the eventual flag must have the southern cross, this design is my favourite.

View attachment 209820

See that design is proof of why a new flag has to be ethnic neutral. As a non-indigenous person I see that as a representation of the indigenous community and not myself as a multi-european heritage Australian.