Ben Cunnington vs Tom Liberatore

[BlueandWhiteElf]

They both have similar attributes in traffic.

Very good hands and awareness.

I haven't seen Libba get caught holding the ball as much as Ben, but this is obviously a tactic requiring strength that Ben is working on, and he's still not heaps strong through the hips (more heavy squats mate).

Ben has better overhead marking than Libba from what I have seen, and I think has a more bartelesque forward/defensive marking game that I'm not sure Libba will develop (could be wrong).

I call them more or less even in terms of apparent midfield ability.

I call Ben ahead in terms of utility forward or back.

Therefore, Ben. But really like Libba, and perhaps he will outshine Ben in the midfield in future years.

Good players to compare.

 

[The Fact]

Ben played some good and bad games this year which u expect from a young player, but as he has been talked up as a big strong inside mid performances like on the weekend just aren't expectable. He should be fighting hard to win the ball not grand standing but time is on his side lucky for him.

 

[ManOfClay]

I haven't seen Libba get caught holding the ball as much as Ben, but this is obviously a tactic requiring strength that Ben is working on, and he's still not heaps strong through the hips (more heavy squats mate).

Ben has better overhead marking than Libba from what I have seen, and I think has a more bartelesque forward/defensive marking game that I'm not sure Libba will develop (could be wrong).

I call them more or less even in terms of apparent midfield ability.

I call Ben ahead in terms of utility forward or back.

Therefore, Ben. But really like Libba, and perhaps he will outshine Ben in the midfield in future years.

Good players to compare.

Odd that you'd say Ben Cunnington getting caught HTB is a tactic? I get that he is working towards being strong enough to break tackles, but would you rather someone try and break one and fail or get rid of the ball legally and get the ball to a teammate.

On midfield ability Liberatore is comfortably ahead. Such is the diminished expectation on Cunnington as it is, an 11 possession and one goal game while his direct opponent plays a blinder is seen as above average.

Potentially I do see the Bartel in Cunnington. As much as I see the Lenny Hayes in Libba.

 

[the big lebowski]

Potentially I do see the Bartel in Cunnington. As much as I see the Lenny Hayes in Libba.

The bartel comparison is in his overhead marking ability. He has taken four or five really good ones over the last 3 weeks. Bens coming along ok overall. Had a good start to the year and needs to go on with it. We need him to go on with it. Our youngsters have been disappointing to date, other than bc, Atley and Harper. Ziebell, bastinac, Adams will need to lift in the weeks to come.

 

[TigerTime88]

Cunnington is in his fourth year and should be compared to players like Martin, Trengove as they were taken in the same draft. Going on this he has played to no where near the level of these guys.

Libba has been one of the better mids so far in his draft and has barely played 20 AFL/VFL games.

On this the fact that Libba is still ahead performance wise suggests he will be a much better player.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Poor poll. Libba is a mile in front at the minute and I actually think Cunnington is a part of Brad Scott's if you are a first round draft pick you play, philosophy. How long did it take Hansen to drop out?
Cunnington to me looks like a real lower level (VFL) talent but I don't see any attributes he has that will make him a star in the AFL. Apparently his tank is not great, he can't evade tackles, his disposal is questionable too. I think he will be a bust.
I have heard that he has great vision and handballing but other than one highlight I am yet to see this for myself. My lasting memory of him at the moment is being caught with the footy about 2-3 times when North demolished GWS. It seemed his awareness was quite poor...so I find it hard to believe he has great vision.
Cunnington has played 41 games now and is averaging 14 disposals.
Libba has played 22 and is averaging 18 already. I think Libba is a very good clearance talent, though he will never be much more than a Daniel Cross type, play within your limitations, still that is a pretty good level to aspire to.
Cunnington is only in his 3rd season so he has a little more time to prove himself, but as a number 5 draft pick with 40 odd games under his belt, you would expect a helluva lot more. At least a really great game in those 41 games to show people the talent. I don't think he has had one.

 

[KillaKanga]

Cunnington is in his fourth year and should be compared to players like Martin, Trengove as they were taken in the same draft. Going on this he has played to no where near the level of these guys.

Libba has been one of the better mids so far in his draft and has barely played 20 AFL/VFL games.

On this the fact that Libba is still ahead performance wise suggests he will be a much better player.

Cunnington's career thus far is nowhere near 'don't argue's, he's also played 9 less games through injury.

Over their career Dusty avgs quite a few more possies but as of this year Dusty avg's 22 to Cunnington's 17 but Cunnington is avging 4.9 tackles and 1.1 goals to Dusty's 3.3ts & 0.9 goals (Cunnington has played several games in defense)

Trengove over his career (44 games) has avg'ed 19 possies to Cunnington's 14. As of this year Cunnington is avging more possies (17 to 16.1), Marks (3.4 to 3) Goals (1.1 to 0.4) Inside 50's (2.1 to 1.7). Trengove has more tackles 5.1 to 4.9

I'm not saying Cunnington is as good or better than any of these players just that considering this is his first full pre-season he is playing more to his ability than previous years and can maybe match it with these guns (who were both picked before he was)

I also agree with people that this means nought if he tapers off - needs to be consistent from here on

 

[KillaKanga]

Poor poll. Libba is a mile in front at the minute and I actually think Cunnington is a part of Brad Scott's if you are a first round draft pick you play, philosophy. How long did it take Hansen to drop out?
Cunnington to me looks like a real lower level (VFL) talent but I don't see any attributes he has that will make him a star in the AFL. Apparently his tank is not great, he can't evade tackles, his disposal is questionable too. I think he will be a bust.
I have heard that he has great vision and handballing but other than one highlight I am yet to see this for myself. My lasting memory of him at the moment is being caught with the footy about 2-3 times when North demolished GWS. It seemed his awareness was quite poor...so I find it hard to believe he has great vision.
Cunnington has played 41 games now and is averaging 14 disposals.
Libba has played 22 and is averaging 18 already. I think Libba is a very good clearance talent, though he will never be much more than a Daniel Cross type, play within your limitations, still that is a pretty good level to aspire to.
Cunnington is only in his 3rd season so he has a little more time to prove himself, but as a number 5 draft pick with 40 odd games under his belt, you would expect a helluva lot more. At least a really great game in those 41 games to show people the talent. I don't think he has had one.

Fair enough but as with alot of players not from your club you don't watch from day 1. I also know alot of Roos supporters have been talking him up and this puts people off. But looking at avg of his career is misleading. He's had 2 major surgeries since being drafted inluding hip (gonna slow you down) and is playing his first year with a full preseason. His avg this year 17 and he's not playing midfield where possies are the benchmark.

Also ask Liam Picken if he can stand up in a tackle

 

[TigerTime88]

Cunnington's career thus far is nowhere near 'don't argue's, he's also played 9 less games through injury.

Over their career Dusty avgs quite a few more possies but as of this year Dusty avg's 22 to Cunnington's 17 but Cunnington is avging 4.9 tackles and 1.1 goals to Dusty's 3.3ts & 0.9 goals (Cunnington has played several games in defense)

Trengove over his career (44 games) has avg'ed 19 possies to Cunnington's 14. As of this year Cunnington is avging more possies (17 to 16.1), Marks (3.4 to 3) Goals (1.1 to 0.4) Inside 50's (2.1 to 1.7). Trengove has more tackles 5.1 to 4.9

I'm not saying Cunnington is as good or better than any of these players just that considering this is his first full pre-season he is playing more to his ability than previous years and can maybe match it with these guns (who were both picked before he was)

I also agree with people that this means nought if he tapers off - needs to be consistent from here on

Fair enough I think that is a fairly well balanced view. I think in Martins case sometimes him having 20 touches is equivalent to others having 30 because is so damaging.

In regards to Cunnington I am surprised he hasn't lifted yet because in under 18's he was a hard at it mid who kicked goals. I really liked him at the draft and while he hasn't set the world on fire he certainly worth persisting with because he has talent.

 

[KillaKanga]

Fair enough I think that is a fairly well balanced view. I think in Martins case sometimes him having 20 touches is equivalent to others having 30 because is so damaging.

In regards to Cunnington I am surprised he hasn't lifted yet because in under 18's he was a hard at it mid who kicked goals. I really liked him at the draft and while he hasn't set the world on fire he certainly worth persisting with because he has talent.

I don't think many from their draft or subsequent ones would want to be compared to Martin. Impressive young man. Which make Cotchin even more so because in my opinion he is much more important to the Tiges.

Cunnington's injuries did have an effect in his 1st couple of years but he know longer has that or anything for an excuse. He needs to get it and do something with it on a regular basis.

 

[Slattery_20]

I love calls like "will never be more than a XYZ type" less than 25 games into a guy's career.

Can just imagine what was said about Swan, Lake, Ablett, Scott Thompson, Josh Kennedy, Watson, Mitchell & so on. Even Franklin wasn't producing much in his first year or 18 months.
Any kid who earns a spot more often than not, and plays more than a small handful of really good games in their first year or two is doing really, really well; and a good chance of being a complete gun.

Both these kids can seriously play.

 

[mark73]

Potentially I do see the Bartel in Cunnington. As much as I see the Lenny Hayes in Libba.

Potentially I think you're right. I will admit to not having seen enough of Liberatore and I won't make any judgements on last week when I think Altona would've given North a run for their money but I like what I see. I also like the look of Wallis. He's got a way to go to better the old man. He needs to get rid of the hair. The old man wouldn't appreciate that, surely?

 

[Ant_]

I also like the look of Wallis. He's got a way to go to better the old man. He needs to get rid of the hair. The old man wouldn't appreciate that, surely?

Wallis senior had a bit of 'Fro in the 80's mullet style in his early years.

Favourite Steve Wallis moment was a the perfect shirt front on Brett Heady. Heady had been telling the Dogs players his goal count after very goal "That's 3" etc.

So after the bump had knocked him out, Wallis said loudly "That's 1".

 

[_Mike_]

Hard to split Tom & Ben at the moment and we'll need to wait another season or 2 to get a better idea of player progression

 

[ManOfClay]

I also like the look of Wallis. He's got a way to go to better the old man. He needs to get rid of the hair. The old man wouldn't appreciate that, surely?

Very similar do's.

 

[KillaKanga]

Very similar do's.

Dennis Pagan would have been proud of that. That do is tight!!

 

[Kcrack]

Hard to split Tom & Ben at the moment and we'll need to wait another season or 2 to get a better idea of player progression

Both young, who knows how good they'll be with 100 games under their belts.

 

[Slattery_20]

Pretty sure that's the buffing disk off an orbital sander...

 

[ManOfClay]

Watching Liberatore closer again tonight, I think he is starting to nudge ahead.

Seems to be able to find the footy and impact games much more than Cunnington.

24 disposals tonight (14 contested), 9 clearances, 4 tackles and a goal going at over 70% efficiency. With 75% time on the ground. Will get fitter as he gets more into his legs, He is still a teenager.

Combine that with Wallis' 24 dipsosals (10 contested) 5 clearances, 5 tackles and a goal at 96% efficiency from 72% time on ground.

If these two keep going, imagine how good they could be when they are fully grown men. They were playing against a midfield which still had Selwood, Bartel and Joel Corey in it.

 

[Old Skool]

If these two keep going, imagine how good they could be when they are fully grown men. They were playing against a midfield which still had Selwood, Bartel and Joel Corey in it.

They were also playing IN a midfield that included Boyd, Cross, Griffen and Cooney and yet the dogs still couldn't win a match against an ailing geelong.

Cunnington can only dream of that kind of midfield support.

Wallis is the better player of the dogs pair but I don't think either of them are going to be any better than the blokes they replace.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

They were also playing IN a midfield that included Boyd, Cross, Griffen and Cooney and yet the dogs still couldn't win a match against an ailing geelong.

Cunnington can only dream of that kind of midfield support.

Wallis is the better player of the dogs pair but I don't think either of them are going to be any better than the blokes they replace.

Perhaps Cunnington should start by giving a little support to some of the other North mids that actually get the ball?

Cunnington has been a huge let down and he is yet to provide anywhere near the kind of performances that little Libba is regularly putting up.
The midfield support for these 2 shouldn't be too much of an issue with regards to their numbers anyway as both are supposed to be contested ball/clearance winners.

 

[StringyDog]

Cunnington can only dream of that kind of midfield support.

He'd have to actually start playing in the midfield to get that support instead of still playing up forward and doing some tagging roles, Cunnington is currently not in same ball park as Libba, and Wallis has also shot past him this year despite Cunnington having extra years on them both, looks nothing more than a bit player at moment.

 

[Old Skool]

He'd have to actually start playing in the midfield to get that support

Agree.

Norths midfield is nowhere near the Bulldogs in maturity and Ben only plays a bit part in our midfield at the moment anyway.

As I stated previously, it's a stupid poll.

Still, on the upside, we did beat Geelong.

Wallis and Libba are good but they won't match the combined North midfield when it gets up and running.

 

[ManOfClay]

They were also playing IN a midfield that included Boyd, Cross, Griffen and Cooney and yet the dogs still couldn't win a match against an ailing geelong.

Cunnington can only dream of that kind of midfield support.

Wallis is the better player of the dogs pair but I don't think either of them are going to be any better than the blokes they replace.

Cooney played mostly up forward, and Griffen is an outside midfielder. Completely different roles. Cross was tagging Bartel and didn't win a single clearance.

Liberatore 9 clearances
Boyd 6
Wallis 5


Spin our loss any way you like- we're missing most of our back 6 and took it to them off a short break coming home from Darwin. Close to their situation when they lost to North.

 

[Old Skool]

Spin our loss any way you like

And put you out of a job?

Bartel is pretty much a non event as a clearance player these days. Cunnington averages 0.3 less clearances than Bartel. Liam freakin Anthony, who has been dropped for poor work rate, averages more clearances than Bartel.

You lost to a side that is 12th in the competition for clearances with it's 2nd best clearance player (Kelly) missing.

The Bulldogs midfield of Boyd, Cross, Griffen, Cooney, Liberatore and Wallis effectively took on Sellwood and Corey and still couldn't win. If you think this is cause for celebration then good for you.

The only conclusion that can currently be drawn from any Cunnington v Liberatore comparison is that Libba has had a much easier baptism due to a greater support network and that he is also more aerobically fitter at this point.