Black Caviar overrated!

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catman 71

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I can't find the "Racing" thread, so I will post it here.

I may cop a lot of flak for this, but I believe that Black Caviar is overrated.

Sure it keeps winning races, but who does it beat?

I am not a huge fan of racing, so I was shocked to find that Black Caviar has not been entered in the Caulfield Cup, the Cox Plate or the Melbourne Cup.

My brother, a sports nut, told me that Black Caviar is a sprinter, so it won't do endurance races.

Well, then, I think all the hype is misplaced.

Here I was thinking that everyone talking up Black Caviar as "the next Phar Lap" (and I have heard that comparison), was a champion racehorse, who can match it with the best and beat them. Now I find that it races in the lesser races on the day.

This is why Black Caviar is no champion.

Champions compete in the top "matches" and draws.

Champion AFL teams are the ones who win premierships.
Champion F1 drivers win world championships.
Champion tennis players win the Aust, French, U.S. or Wimbledon (that is why I don't class Caroline Wozniacki as a champion either).
Champion NFL teams win Superbowls
Champion baseball teams win the World Series.

And here is where I get relevant:-
Champion racehorses win the Cox Plate, Caulfield or Melbourne Cup.

Doremus was a champion, Phar Lap was a champion, Mikaybe Diva was a champion, Think Big was a champion.

So, tell me, where does "Black Caviar" rank with the truly great racehorses?

I have never heard so much hype for one horse since people hyped another non-entity, Sunlyne, who was gushed about, despite constantly being beaten by Northerly.

Let's cut the crap. The only reason most commentators gush about Black Caviar is that they are making easy money betting on him all the time.

Once Black Caviar loses, and the shock of that dies down, you will never hear of her again.
 
She is a champion. It's not just the races she wins but the way that she wins them. Luke Nolen didn't even touch the whip today and BC still put 5 lengths on the others in no time. She can only race the horses that are put against her. Other trainers are scared to put their horses up against her because they know they are racing for second.

A lot of the Black Caviar story will be written in the next 12 months. There is talk that she is going to step up to 1600m in the Autumn and then head over to England. This will decide whether she is just a champion or right up there with Phar Lap.
 
Catman i think you are on the money and tend to agree with you though if she's a sprinter and the best there is then i do think she deserves to be labelled a champion spirinter but not in the class of the Makybe Diva's, So You Think etc and the great West Aussie you mentioned Northerly, carried the champion tag with ease. He did it all from 1200 to 2400 and the one regret Fred Kersley had was not running him in the Melbourne Cup.
Northerly won everything over here from about 1200 to 1800 then proved himself over east from about 1600 to 2400 2 years running and as you say when Sunline was considered the Queen of the turf he knocked her off her perch and the only thing that stopped him in the end was injury.

To further back up what you are saying, think back to a couple of stars of the turf (Champions) of the 80's like Kingston Town and Super Impose. They could do it all from sprints to middle distance and the King just missed out on a Melbourne Cup carrying about 60kg. Second to Gurners Lane who was carrying nothing.
 

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Surkin said:
She is a champion. It's not just the races she wins but the way that she wins them. Luke Nolen didn't even touch the whip today and BC still put 5 lengths on the others in no time. She can only race the horses that are put against her. Other trainers are scared to put their horses up against her because they know they are racing for second.

A lot of the Black Caviar story will be written in the next 12 months. There is talk that she is going to step up to 1600m in the Autumn and then head over to England. This will decide whether she is just a champion or right up there with Phar Lap.
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If what you say is right, then let's test that theory.

If other trainers won't put their horses against her, then her trainer should take the initiative and enter her in the big races.

If she is such a champion, then she should race in the Melbourne Cup race. No excuses. Either she is all she is touted to be, or she is not. End of story. Imagine if she won a Caulfield, Cox Plate or Melb Cup, she would put the doubters, like me, to rest. How can I argue her credentials then?

But she won't be entered in those races, because she will be beaten, and the myth that is BC unbeaten run will come to an end. I know it, and you know it.

I want to see Black Caviar prove me wrong. She won't though, and the myth will only grow, until she loses, which she will eventually.

To compare Black Caviar to Phar Lap is like comparing the best district cricketer to Don Bradman.
 
catman 71 said:
My brother, a sports nut, told me that Black Caviar is a sprinter, so it won't do endurance races.

Well, then, I think all the hype is misplaced.
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So is Usain Bolt not a champion because he doesn't win the marathon at the olympics? Australia's major races are staying events. Hopefully BC will be given a shot at some of the big sprint races in Asia. She's won six Group 1 races and will add to that over the next season.

catman 71 said:
Champion racehorses win the Cox Plate, Caulfield or Melbourne Cup.


I have never heard so much hype for one horse since people hyped another non-entity, Sunlyne, who was gushed about, despite constantly being beaten by Northerly.
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Do you mean the non-entity Sunline? Who won 2 cox plates (only 5 mares have won a cox plate) which by your own measure makes a horse a champion, or Sunlyne, a literal non-entity? She also won big races overseas and was absolutely a champion racehorse.
 
In the first 50 words he stated he isn't a massive racing fan. We should leave him be and let him think what he wants to think. To those that follow racing with interest, she is an out and out champion and the record books will keep tumbling. I think she has 1600m in her and would love to see her take on Frankel here or abroad.
 
catman 71 said:
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If what you say is right, then let's test that theory.

If other trainers won't put their horses against her, then her trainer should take the initiative and enter her in the big races.

If she is such a champion, then she should race in the Melbourne Cup race. No excuses. Either she is all she is touted to be, or she is not. End of story. Imagine if she won a Caulfield, Cox Plate or Melb Cup, she would put the doubters, like me, to rest. How can I argue her credentials then?

But she won't be entered in those races, because she will be beaten, and the myth that is BC unbeaten run will come to an end. I know it, and you know it.

I want to see Black Caviar prove me wrong. She won't though, and the myth will only grow, until she loses, which she will eventually.

To compare Black Caviar to Phar Lap is like comparing the best district cricketer to Don Bradman.
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This is ridiculous.

Is Usain Bolt not a champion because he didn't win the blue ribbon event in the marathon?

Is Keiran Perkins not a champion because he did not win the glamour 100m sprint?

Is Steffi Graf not a champion because she never took on and beat the boys (remember Black Caviar does)?

I like that you are thinking out of the box and trying to argue this but your lack of knowledge for Horse Racing is really showing through. Black Caviar is a sprinter and has absolutely destroyed anyone she has been put against. If you look at her bloodlines it is clear she is not going to be able to run the 3200m of a Melbourne Cup and to suggest she should is just plain idiotic.

Just enjoy watching what she does and forget about where she ranks in history. She is a champion - end of story.
 
I am with you Catman, i think true greatness in a racehorse comes from proving itself over a combination of distances from sprints to middle distance to staying distances though i don't think a racehorse necessarily has to prove itself over 2 mile races like the Melbourne Cup but i think any horse that can win Cox Plates, Caulfield Cups and Melbourne cups is an undisputed champion and a freak.

To use an analogy between racehorses with humans is ridiculous.
 
Not ridiculous at all. Horses, like humans, have both fast and slow twitch muscle fibres, ratios of each that can't be changed. If a horse, like a human, is a sprinter, it's a sprinter, no amount of training it to be an endurance runner is going to change its genetics.
 
V8's don't enter into F1 races because they're a different type of motorsport. Does that make their competition any less?
 
Well on the argument from the OP we have only had one champion race horse.

It is not Phar Lap despite his celebrated status - He couldn't win the best sprint race despite his outstanding record.

It is not Carbine who won the Melbourne cup with the highest weight ever carried to victory in (then) race record time against a field of 39.

It is not Makybe Diva despite a Cox Plate and 3 Melbourne Cups as she also could not match the best sprinters.

The only champion would be Malua, winner of the 1884 Melbourne Cup after winning both the Oakleigh Plate and Newmarket Handicap earlier in the year. He also returned from stud duties in to win the Grand National Hurdle in 1889.

Despite that Black Caviar is a true champion.
 

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superfreak said:
This has to be, without a shadow of a doubt, the worst post in the history of BigFooty.

or

The biggest wind up in the history of BigFooty.

Hilarious either way.
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Agree - OP should hang his head in shame.

But given he is not a racing fan - here is an analogy for you champ. The recent Geelong premiership sides are a joke and massively overrated because they refuse to take on the Green Bay packers in the Superbowl - what a bunch of hacks those Cats are!
 
yummy6 said:
V8's don't enter into F1 races because they're a different type of motorsport. Does that make their competition any less?
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Despite Mark Webber diminishing the status of being a GP winner/ value of a GP win, yes it is. V8's a more cumbersome, have less power, therefore easier to drive, therefore, it is a lesser competiton (as much as the V8Supercar community try to make you think it isn't).
 
catman 71 said:
I am not a huge fan of racing
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Obviously. And obviously you've never heard of Todman, Vain, Manikato or Schillaci.

With racing battling ever harder to command newsprint, Black Caviar is a godsend for the sport. I do think it's a little bit sad that a training gallop against four rivals distracted from the Cox Plate, however.
 
Dockersman said:
I am with you Catman, i think true greatness in a racehorse comes from proving itself over a combination of distances from sprints to middle distance to staying distances though i don't think a racehorse necessarily has to prove itself over 2 mile races like the Melbourne Cup but i think any horse that can win Cox Plates, Caulfield Cups and Melbourne cups is an undisputed champion and a freak.

To use an analogy between racehorses with humans is ridiculous.
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ok name a horse who has won a manikato or a patinak farm classic and a melbourne cup.
Black cavier is a champion, as was takeover target and makybe diva
 
LOL, Im not racing fan but for a Horse to be rated no1 in the world has to mean something especially one that has won 15 in row. I trust the experts over myself. Really I cant add anything that hasnt been said in this stupid thread.

On side topic if you wanna talk overrated, take a look at the trainers they act like they are gods gift to the world and sure they have a lot of expertise and deserve some credit but they way same of them are revered is over the top.
 
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