Bluemour Melting Pot XXVI

[The Old Dark Navy's]

As per the Bluemour File OP, this is a thread for discussing Carlton related rumours.
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/bluemour-file.1085141/

Rumour posters should post their rumours in both threads for those that like just to read rumours and for those that like to have get lost in their rumour files.

Remember ... #Bluemour





Continued from here ...

Bluemour Melting Pot XXV

Continued here ... https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/bluemour-melting-pot-xxvi.1250444/

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Continued here:

Bluemour Melting Pot XXVII

As per the Bluemour File OP, this is a thread for discussing Carlton related rumours. http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/bluemour-file.1085141/ Rumour posters should post their rumours in both threads for those that like just to read rumours and for those that like to have get lost in their...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Benaly28]

We might have already, but I might see a better career path at *.

Don’t have the picks to do the deal.Could possibly offer Mitch and future first but * have high draft picks to get it done.


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[DamianBis]

Surely they're next out...


Trust the club to do its due diligence. First sign of concern, game over. Low risk, potentially good return.

I just don't see what you gain.. he hasn't show anything at AFL level. Shouldnt have even been a pick 1.

I'd much prefer to take a kid at the back end of the draft in this draft considering all the unknowns.

 

[Arr0w]

Yes, I took it there when I initiated the conversation by asking you the question. It was a hypothetical which you have answered. Thats why I keep bringing you back to the point of where 2020 pick 8's value is.

The most I would pay is subjective, depending on your own values. I wouldnt straight swap pick 8 for Saad with *. I would however draft him with it. I would like to use pick 8 to obtain Saad for strengthening our 2021 draft hand. Thats the best value pick 8 delivers.

Splitting the pick is not something I would do. Its a pointless exercise which sure, "wins" on paper but what do we gain? Saad and an extremely speculative pick nearing pick 20. Dont see the point of it. I dont see the gain.

I wanna hear about those 6 kids that are going pick 8 or later.

We will make it simple, Cox or Macrae at that pick, IF, we retain it

 

[CFCtragic]

But what does ‘overpay’ actually mean in trading?

Trading is not like retail, picking a product with a set price and paying that price. Trading is bargaining.

A player’s worth is fluid, depending on the club seeking his services and what the other club seeks in return. Saad may have higher value to a club like carlton, than, say, Gold Coast. Hence, we’re willing to pay more.

And the club wanting to buy has to come up with the pick. Pick 8 may be too high for a player, but if you’ve only pick is pick 8, what do you do? You can either walk away, try and trade pick 8 for multiple lower picks and send one on to Essendon, or trade pick 8 with something else coming back.

So, if pick 8 is too much, do we walk away from the Saad trade?



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I understand your position, but let me counter with some points that you may not have considered.

1. Yes, trading is negotiation and if Adam were contracted, we would need to pay more than his perceived value to encourage * to release him from said contract. But he is not, in a couple of weeks he is unemployed and has come to terms with a new employer, he CANNOT be forced to work for * he is free to go to any of the drafts and offer his services to others.

2. If Adam was to go to a draft, * is the only team that could not draft him. He has honoured his contract and now free to ply his trade in the open market forcing him to work for * directly contravenes Australia's workplace laws.

3. Currently, is also illegal to give an ex-employee a negative reference if asked for one, the most that you can do is refuse to give one, while confirming his employment dates. Yet * have been in the media calling him weak-minded, impossible to work with, and toxic to a workplace culture. Adam himself would not even have to report this to Fairwork, it could be his family, friends, hell even a concerned citizen, and they will investigate.

Remember, the draft is not imposed on the players, it's imposed on the clubs (i.e.) being one of the only way clubs can add players to their list, this is how the AFL skirts our workplace laws. (i.e. they don't restrict the players freedom to work, they place restrictions on the clubs hiring practices)

Considering all of these factors, Carlton negotiating with * at all, IS Carlton acting in good faith. We are helping to keep the system healthy by trying to do the right thing by the league when * have no claim on Adam's services, so all things considered * asking for pick 8 is a tremendous act of bad faith. However, whether Adam plays for us or someone else next year, it definitely won't be * unless they both change their mind.

Hope this helps explain why some here don't understand considering giving pick 8 for a player whose services * has no claim on.

 

[StandByyourMan]

The frustration is that Saad is OOC yet our negotiations appear to not consider this. What would he be worth if he was in contract and we were trading for him? Curious what people view the difference as?

Obvs. Pick 1.

 

[CrippasHeavyLoad]

Pick 8 for Treloar and Saad...

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[BluesTragic]

Don’t have the picks to do the deal.Could possibly offer Mitch and future first but * have high draft picks to get it done.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Well the Dogs will need to shift picks in that case. They won’t wanna use a top ten pick for JUH

 

[StandByyourMan]

I understand your position, but let me counter with some points that you may not have considered.

1. Yes, trading is negotiation and if Adam were contracted, we would need to pay more than his perceived value to encourage * to release him from said contract. But he is not, in a couple of weeks he is unemployed and has come to terms with a new employer, he CANNOT be forced to work for * he is free to go to any of the drafts and offer his services to others.

2. If Adam was to go to a draft, * is the only team that could not draft him. He has honoured his contract and now free to ply his trade in the open market forcing him to work for * directly contravenes Australia's workplace laws.

3. Currently, is also illegal to give an ex-employee a negative reference if asked for one, the most that you can do is refuse to give one, while confirming his employment dates. Yet * have been in the media calling him weak-minded, impossible to work with, and toxic to a workplace culture. Adam himself would not even have to report this to Fairwork, it could be his family, friends, hell even a concerned citizen, and they will investigate.

Remember, the draft is not imposed on the players, it's imposed on the clubs (i.e.) being one of the only way clubs can add players to their list, this is how the AFL skirts our workplace laws. (i.e. they don't restrict the players freedom to work, they place restrictions on the clubs hiring practices)

Considering all of these factors, Carlton negotiating with * at all, IS Carlton acting in good faith. We are helping to keep the system healthy by trying to do the right thing by the league when * have no claim on Adam's services, so all things considered * asking for pick 8 is a tremendous act of bad faith. However, whether Adam plays for us or someone else next year, it definitely won't be * unless they both change their mind.

Hope this helps explain why some here don't understand considering giving pick 8 for a player whose services * has no claim on.

May it please the court.

 

[Earls Smother]

At the end of the day we have to get the deal done. And i'm confident Austin and the club will do this. It doesn't really bother me if we "slightly lose" on the trade.

It seems that Forty3 was trying to condition us to what might happen with this statement:

If we pay 8 and third rounder for Saad and a 2nd, that is good value, as the second is a pick we can use in trade or draft.
If we don’t want to pay more than 8 and get Saad and a 3rd. Are we likely to use the 3rd round pick or will we be able to trade it for good return? With list sizes likely dropping by 2 and an incredibly compromised draft, probably not.

We obviously want at least a second back, otherwise the pick is useless to us. It's probably a bit of wait and see what they get for Fantasia, as we are not happy with the 42 that they currently have.

I'm with you in not being bothered about "slightly losing". Saad is very important in providing what we lack. The Bombers know that, and they are hardly going to be keen to help us get to 17 before them.

 

[myblueroan]

Paging Royal Blues
Time for a new track release for Cup day?
Reconnaisance cat Fluffy came back with a fish bone and not much else.
It's up to you now.
Over.

 

[Blue and Blue]

I am backing No. 7...no 8...might be 9 yet....10 possible

 

[myblueroan]

It seems that Forty3 was trying to condition us to what might happen with this statement:

If we pay 8 and third rounder for Saad and a 2nd, that is good value, as the second is a pick we can use in trade or draft.
If we don’t want to pay more than 8 and get Saad and a 3rd. Are we likely to use the 3rd round pick or will we be able to trade it for good return? With list sizes likely dropping by 2 and an incredibly compromised draft, probably not.

We obviously want at least a second back, otherwise the pick is useless to us. It's probably a bit of wait and see what they get for Fantasia, as we are not happy with the 42 that they currently have.

I'm with you in not being bothered about "slightly losing". Saad is very important in providing what we lack. The Bombers know that, and they are hardly going to be keen to help us get to 17 before them.

Yep. I agree we are being 'prepared' and also that it's ok.
I'm wondering about our 'war chest' right now.
If the above happens, can we still conjure a decent midder?

 

[Honour]

8 too high for Saad...late 1st or let him go. Other potential players will realise it was *s fault. No biggy. Make a statement.

 

[azlou]

I understand your position, but let me counter with some points that you may not have considered.

1. Yes, trading is negotiation and if Adam were contracted, we would need to pay more than his perceived value to encourage * to release him from said contract. But he is not, in a couple of weeks he is unemployed and has come to terms with a new employer, he CANNOT be forced to work for * he is free to go to any of the drafts and offer his services to others.

2. If Adam was to go to a draft, * is the only team that could not draft him. He has honoured his contract and now free to ply his trade in the open market forcing him to work for * directly contravenes Australia's workplace laws.

3. Currently, is also illegal to give an ex-employee a negative reference if asked for one, the most that you can do is refuse to give one, while confirming his employment dates. Yet * have been in the media calling him weak-minded, impossible to work with, and toxic to a workplace culture. Adam himself would not even have to report this to Fairwork, it could be his family, friends, hell even a concerned citizen, and they will investigate.

Remember, the draft is not imposed on the players, it's imposed on the clubs (i.e.) being one of the only way clubs can add players to their list, this is how the AFL skirts our workplace laws. (i.e. they don't restrict the players freedom to work, they place restrictions on the clubs hiring practices)

Considering all of these factors, Carlton negotiating with * at all, IS Carlton acting in good faith. We are helping to keep the system healthy by trying to do the right thing by the league when * have no claim on Adam's services, so all things considered * asking for pick 8 is a tremendous act of bad faith. However, whether Adam plays for us or someone else next year, it definitely won't be * unless they both change their mind.

Hope this helps explain why some here don't understand considering giving pick 8 for a player whose services * has no claim on.

I elect you BF representative to advise Austin in negotiations with Essendon

 

[Blueballs38]

Here what your saying BlueFusion, but our next pick after 8 is 28, or there abouts.

As a player that has always featured 4th or better in a best and fairest, Saad is worth more than pick 28. We’d be asking for more than that if he was with us (Yaz we wanted a first rounder and he hardly played in his final year).

Either we trade pick 8 for two lower picks and give one to Essendon, or we give Essendon pick 8 with something coming back. Either way, we’re going to lose pick 8




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and that is it.

no need for further boring discussion on this. Anyway you cut it pick 8 is gone ... unless you want to package this years and next years second .... which I don’t.

its what we are left with that is important .... late first rounded early second round at the least I’d hope.

 

[Garters]

Listened to the fox footy trade update podcast to hear what J Ralph and clowns were waxing lyrical about. Ralph thinks Carlton need to hand over 8 to get Saad but he wouldn't hand that 8 to the dogs for Dunkley because it's overs. Basic comprehension of value this trade period has gone up in smoke!

 

[Bee Vee]

If he goes to the National Draft doesn’t that mean we just use pick 8 on him?

Yes it does but why should he take the risk? There are a number of teams with picks before us including interstate sides.
He'd be better signing with a club that can do a deal and having some form of control over his destination.

 

[CJMB]

Together?

Unlikely.

 

[KohPhi]

The worst part about all this 'Saad trade worth' discussion is the confusion and angst this must be causing Austin, Agresta and Co. at Clubland...



....oh that's right, they couldn't give two ****s what the plebs (me included) here think.

 

[The Great Ian]

Given the pressure they’re under, Dodoro and Essendon are in no position to reject a late first round pick if we split pick 8.

If we can’t split 8, then it goes and we get a later pick back with Saad.


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[Blue_Fusion]

The frustration is that Saad is OOC yet our negotiations appear to not consider this. What would he be worth if he was in contract and we were trading for him? Curious what people view the difference as?

That's a good point... if he's supposedly worth pick 8 OOC, what is he worth if contracted? Pick 1?

 

[Earls Smother]

Yep. I agree we are being 'prepared' and also that it's ok.
I'm wondering about our 'war chest' right now.
If the above happens, can we still conjure a decent midder?

Get the feeling we want the right type, not just anyone for the sake of it.

If we get 26ish from Bombers, we can trade up with 2 seconds with Dogs for 12ish (keeps bloody changing). That gives us the 2 firsts (with next years) to trade for an Oliver if it becomes doable. Otherwise we probably wait until next year.

Treloar is interesting - as to whether we would change course and take the bird in the hand and forego other future options?

 

[SOSage Mcgovern]

Paging Royal Blues
Time for a new track release for Cup day?
Reconnaisance cat Fluffy came back with a fish bone and not much else.
It's up to you now.
Over.

Royalblues pops in ready to drop a nice new track for us all....then sees last night's thread

 

[The Greek Freak]

Get the feeling we want the right type, not just anyone for the sake of it.

If we get 26ish from Bombers, we can trade up with 2 seconds with Dogs for 12ish (keeps bloody changing). That gives us the 2 firsts (with next years) to trade for an Oliver if it becomes doable. Otherwise we probably wait until next year.

Treloar is interesting - as to whether we would change course and take the bird in the hand and forego other future options?

What other options? Oliver and Wines both not happening. Wouldn't mind Treloar if he came cheap, but then that also affects our chances of being able to go for an Oliver/Merrett next year. So I'd probably pass on Treloar for now and be more than happy with Saad, Williams and one other lesser name. Sexton wouldn't be a bad pickup on the cheap.

 

[Blue and Blue]

At least we didnt give away pick 7 ....got to be pleased about that............................

8 is way too much though